HFT is Unpopular

Training Powerlifting
61

[quote]Khaine wrote:

[quote]ev1bl wrote:
High frequency for powerlifting is the shit.

There was actually done a study on this subject in my country recently, comparing 3 to 6 days a week, using the exact same volume for both groups. A squat-, bench-, and deadlift-variaton.

The difference was huge.[/quote]

Why didn’t I hear about this? You know who conducted the study?

Also, higher frequency usually means increased volume as well, especially when you’re looking at PL v WL. Keeping total volume the same but performing twice as many workouts (essentially cutting your workouts in half, but doing more of them) isn’t the same as squatting 6-10 times a week.

IMO, genetics and work capacity decide the amount of volume you can tolerate. Weightlifters, especially in the eastern block and china, are hand picked around age 8 due to levers and strength potential (genetics) and put through rigorous high volume, high frequency training for decades (building work capacity) before peaking. The overwhelming majority of those kids get nowhere near the olympics or the kind of numbers seen there. Tons of injuries, burnt out from training etc. If you don’t have the make-up for it, you’re not gonna succeed with that method.

Powerlifters on the other hand usually don’t start the process until years later and don’t have the same training structure because the sport is so much smaller, yet the strongest powerlifters definitely have bigger squats and deads than the strongest weightlifters.

Meh, I tend to think the methods have developed in the directions they have for a reason. Trial and error has found the respective methods the most effective at accomplishing their goals. And yes, I know that’s not very adventurous or paradigm breaking of me, but I still think it’s true.[/quote]

I believe it was Alexander Kirketeig. http://styrkeloft.no/nyheter/frekvensprosjektet/1437-resultater-fra-frekvensprosjektet

But yeah obviously total volume and avg./peak intensity will be the most important factors and must be adjusted to the individual. However, I think high-frequency is a fairly general principal that can and will work very well for pretty much anyone, as long as the aforementioned factors are under controll.

62

Right. I was talking to both of them (Alexander and Truls) after the convention on Saturday and this didn’t really come up at all. Good to know tho. I’ll keep this in mind.

/ hijack

63

Squats 1 or 2 times a week. What a complete and utter joke. :slight_smile:

64

[quote]stallion wrote:
Squats 1 or 2 times a week. What a complete and utter joke. :slight_smile:

[/quote]

no need to troll and be offensive, lots of people have gotten very strong this way. why not instead share how you have been training and why you think it has worked for you?

Like I said, I make progress (seems my muscle mass body comp explodes) when i train more frequently, but fuck, after a few weeks i get injured, start feeling beat the hell up. I struggle with the fact that maybe i just do not have the genetics to train that hard, or I am doing something fundamentally wrong.

I would love to learn something new/better.

65

[quote]stallion wrote:
Squats 1 or 2 times a week. What a complete and utter joke. :slight_smile:

[/quote]

Was that a serious attempt at contributing? If it was save it. If not, please explain why it is so funny to practice you skill (strength) often. Is a distance runner foolish for running every day, golfer stupid for swinging his clubs every day, jumpers or throwers practicing very often; gymnasts are probably stupidly training everyday also, rite?

Give us your theory.

66

[quote]heavythrower wrote:

[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:
Guess I am just lazy.

Or stubborn.

I’m gonna go with stubborn.

Why is this an argument? If squatting heavy once a week is leading to gains and improvement, keep it up. If its not, up the volume.

[/quote]

what is your problem. I have been lifting for 27 years, competed at the state and regional level in PL, throwing, and HG. I am not having a problem with the discussion going on in this thread, in fact, I am learning some stuff and it is intellectually stimulating.

Very good discussion, please continue.
[/quote]

DF’s point is that if you are able to lift 6 times a week then do it. If not then back off until you find what you can do physically and still make progress. Progress is the point of this whole thing isn’t it?

You say yourself in your next post that lifting 4 times a week was too much for you to do consistently. You started getting injuries. Can you lift 3 times a week consistently without eventually leading to injuries? Then do that. If not then twice a week. If not twice then once a week.

Why not try two times a week for a month. Then three times a week for a month. Then four. Then five. Then six. Work your way up to it. Most people won’t be able to jump from once or twice to six times immediately without either eventually overtraining and burning out or injuring themselves.

67

[quote]dumbbellhead wrote:

[quote]heavythrower wrote:

[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:
Guess I am just lazy.

Or stubborn.

I’m gonna go with stubborn.

Why is this an argument? If squatting heavy once a week is leading to gains and improvement, keep it up. If its not, up the volume.

[/quote]

what is your problem. I have been lifting for 27 years, competed at the state and regional level in PL, throwing, and HG. I am not having a problem with the discussion going on in this thread, in fact, I am learning some stuff and it is intellectually stimulating.

Very good discussion, please continue.
[/quote]

DF’s point is that if you are able to lift 6 times a week then do it. If not then back off until you find what you can do physically and still make progress. Progress is the point of this whole thing isn’t it?

You say yourself in your next post that lifting 4 times a week was too much for you to do consistently. You started getting injuries. Can you lift 3 times a week consistently without eventually leading to injuries? Then do that. If not then twice a week. If not twice then once a week.

Why not try two times a week for a month. Then three times a week for a month. Then four. Then five. Then six. Work your way up to it. Most people won’t be able to jump from once or twice to six times immediately without either eventually overtraining and burning out or injuring themselves. [/quote]

i get you. his previous posts were very trollish, calling for the thread to end all together. this has been a good thread with some good info, for the most part civil discussion on an interesting topic. rare for this board.

I have trained 2-3 times a day 6 days a week(when i was a pretty high level A class HG athlete and a college thrower) i am in my forties now, and as a matter of fact i am doing a 2x week plan right now. that WAS going great, until i tore a calf muscle sprinting saturday.

without the extra conditioning that 2xweek lifting affords me, I am afraid i will go backwards as far as body comp is concerned, and i have made tremendous progress in that area as of late.

I guess I am looking for info that might lead me to proper programing/loading that would allow for more frequent lifting now that I am older and more injury prone.

68

[quote]Crow wrote:

[quote]stallion wrote:
Squats 1 or 2 times a week. What a complete and utter joke. :slight_smile:

[/quote]

Was that a serious attempt at contributing? If it was save it. If not, please explain why it is so funny to practice you skill (strength) often. Is a distance runner foolish for running every day, golfer stupid for swinging his clubs every day, jumpers or throwers practicing very often; gymnasts are probably stupidly training everyday also, rite?

Give us your theory.[/quote]

i think that he is saying squatting ONLY 2-3 times a week is foolish, that he trains more frequently, I think.

69

[quote]Crow wrote:

[quote]stallion wrote:
Squats 1 or 2 times a week. What a complete and utter joke. :slight_smile:

[/quote]

Was that a serious attempt at contributing? If it was save it. If not, please explain why it is so funny to practice you skill (strength) often. Is a distance runner foolish for running every day, golfer stupid for swinging his clubs every day, jumpers or throwers practicing very often; gymnasts are probably stupidly training everyday also, rite?

Give us your theory.[/quote]

Brian Siders, A former multiple time super heavy IPF PL champ, trained 5-6 times a week. his thoughts were similar, “name me one other sport where the athletes train only a few hours a weeK”

I understand the argument that if you are a full time pro or competitive athlete, that you do not have time to make your life about training and recovery.

but if you take professional fighters for example, unless you are one of the very few who make it to the big time, most have to have other full time jobs and they still train every day. even the top guys, most of them at least, had to have jobs and train in there spare time many years before they made it to the big time and it was a full time job for them.

and lets face it, very few of us have physically demanding jobs. I dare say most of us sit at a desk in a climate controlled environment for living. it is not like we are out farming, or doing construction work. does sitting in a cubicle at a computer screen, 8 hours a day really take so much out of us that we cant train 30-60 minutes every day for our sport of choice?

70

[quote]ev1bl wrote:

[quote]Khaine wrote:

[quote]ev1bl wrote:
High frequency for powerlifting is the shit.

There was actually done a study on this subject in my country recently, comparing 3 to 6 days a week, using the exact same volume for both groups. A squat-, bench-, and deadlift-variaton.

The difference was huge.[/quote]

Why didn’t I hear about this? You know who conducted the study?

Also, higher frequency usually means increased volume as well, especially when you’re looking at PL v WL. Keeping total volume the same but performing twice as many workouts (essentially cutting your workouts in half, but doing more of them) isn’t the same as squatting 6-10 times a week.

IMO, genetics and work capacity decide the amount of volume you can tolerate. Weightlifters, especially in the eastern block and china, are hand picked around age 8 due to levers and strength potential (genetics) and put through rigorous high volume, high frequency training for decades (building work capacity) before peaking. The overwhelming majority of those kids get nowhere near the olympics or the kind of numbers seen there. Tons of injuries, burnt out from training etc. If you don’t have the make-up for it, you’re not gonna succeed with that method.

Powerlifters on the other hand usually don’t start the process until years later and don’t have the same training structure because the sport is so much smaller, yet the strongest powerlifters definitely have bigger squats and deads than the strongest weightlifters.

Meh, I tend to think the methods have developed in the directions they have for a reason. Trial and error has found the respective methods the most effective at accomplishing their goals. And yes, I know that’s not very adventurous or paradigm breaking of me, but I still think it’s true.[/quote]

I believe it was Alexander Kirketeig. http://styrkeloft.no/nyheter/frekvensprosjektet/1437-resultater-fra-frekvensprosjektet

But yeah obviously total volume and avg./peak intensity will be the most important factors and must be adjusted to the individual. However, I think high-frequency is a fairly general principal that can and will work very well for pretty much anyone, as long as the aforementioned factors are under controll. [/quote]

interesting. did the test subjects train EVERYTHING 6x week, or just lifted different lifts each day 6xweek?

71

Brian Siders has awesome speed too, even on higher reps like 4-6RM he works his sets keeping 1-2 reps in the tank at all times, and concentrates on explosive bar speeds.

The article says they used half as much volume twice as frequently. The overall volume per week was the same in both groups.

72

so the answer is they trained everything 6 x week then? i get that they cut volume in half, but wrew the bench/squat dl 6xweek?

73

Google badly translates it, and I cannot read Norwegian, but I think:

Implies that the squat progressed twice as much as the 3 day group squat, but for deadlift and bench press results were less than twice as much or the same…?

74

I think it would take a mindset change to reduce squatting volume. I made great progress at 17 (already been lifting 5+ years at that point) working up to a 5RM in squat twice a week, sometimes using only 1.25lb plates.

I think somethings to consider in PL and especially westside is the idea of “extra workouts” and the use of sled for everything from legs to upper body for increased work and work capacity.

For those guys prone to burnout early, I think C_C idea of every fourth cycle through the total body using a deload or light day. So if you are doing total body five days a week, then the fourth day that week is lighter and the fifth day you’re back at it.

Just somethings to think on. I will be building a sled at the end of this month when we move into our new house.

75

If I were to prescribe a 5-6 day a week total body program I would agree with C_C.

For those who havn’t read much on Broz stuff, here are a few excerpts and summaries.

Day 1, 3, 5
Ramp to 1RM Squat then ramp back down.
Ramp to 1RM Squat (again) if still feeling light (max 50 reps/day).
Ramp to 1RM Paused ‘speed’ Bench.
5x(5-10) Either Pullups, Bench grip bent over row OR Rear dumbell flies.

Day 2, 4, 6
Ramp to 1RM Squat.
10x3x75%1RM ‘speed’ Deadlift.

Day 7 Rest or Ramp to 1RM Squat.

Assistance Additions: Goodmornings for flexibility, Back Ext or Reverse for rehab and warmups, Front Squats for weak legs, Push Press for upper body strength, Curls to balance out triceps or rehab.

He says for Powerlifters to never do Cleans or Front Squats as main lifts. Because we are training 3 lifts, and not 2, we can’t afford to do as much assistance work.

It implies the intensity of each day is not important to adapting to the workload, but the frequency is. The intensity*frequency is important to peaking strength, but peaking strength cannot be done without the pre-existing work capacity. So if you cannot do a true 1RM, you aren’t actually expected to do a true 1RM, you just do what you can for the day and keep things fast and explosive.

76

Personally I would do Power Cleans and Front Squats as main lifts.
Every third Squat I would FS instead, I would Power Clean three times as much as I Dead, in replacement, and lastly every second or third Bench I would Close Grip Bench instead. I think he forgets how varied an Olympic level program is.

77

who is C_C?

the lifts i can still do are front squat, deadlift, jerks, dips, chins rows, my shoulder and elbow will not let me push bench or snatches, and i have not been able to back squat with any consistency for over 4 years.

i have listened to Broz interviews, and such…

maybe-

1/3/5 jerk, front squat, chin

2/4/6 power clean, dl, dip

assistance would be ghr, pushups, neck work, sprinting…

i think i would have to watch loading very carefully for a few months, as I tend to get injured when i increase frequency…

thoughts?

78

I tried doing the bulgarian style training for a while and the results were pretty typical. My lifts went up a bit but my hip started bothering my from squatting 4 or more days a week. I do believe that it would give superior results if one had time to do 2-a-days and sleep 10 hours and night and get massages and stuff. I think I’ll just stick to tried and true powerlifting routines and not feel beat up and awful all the time.

79

HT are you actually competing in a meet for deadlift, or are you just deadlifting because it is a ‘good’ exercise? If you aren’t competing then you might actually be better off just following the Broz typical weightlifting program, as opposed to trying to convert as much as you can to powerlifting.

[quote]Originally Posted by buddymander
Why max on deadlifts only 2-3x a year?

Answer: Body positions are CRUCIAL to weightlifting success. max deads force you to pull shoulders back too early, round your back, and lose the proper positions needed for the second pull in the lifts. This will only push progress back along with the simple fact that slow movements do not help any athlete in any sport. “The fastest athlete is the greatest athlete”

When we max in the DL, it’s only for my curiosity to gauge other lifts from and to see when positions start to break down.[/quote]

Yeah. This is why I would clean more than deadlift, I think he has a point. You can only deadlift so fast before you start changing form and technique, It would be better to just perform cleans and power cleans instead. You would still need to deadlift SOMEtime though, to practice technique and find muscular weaknesses.

80

the deadlift is my favorite lift, one of the few I can still go “heavy” on. I am not trying compete in a meet right now, but a deadlift only meet might be in my future if I can get back into the 600’s.