Help Me Pare Down 'Push' Workout

Training
1

Ok, so I am struggling a little bit with getting my push sessions down below an hour. I find at the hour mark I do start losing intensity. There are certain core exercises (marked with a *) that I really don’t want to get rid of, others I can be flexible with as long as the end is well rounded.

I’m training for size and strength, and trying to adjust my previous plan to a legs/pull/push model, as the previous plan would take anywhere from an hour and ten minutes to an hour and a half. This is my “modified” l/p/p model, please help me trim it down. I am not an accomplished athlete. Bench == bodyweight, squat == 1.5 bodyweight, push press == 0.8 bodyweight. I have no machines, but I do have a squat rack, barbell, and dumbbells.

My arms and legs develop much more quickly than back and chest. I’m still a bit chicken breasted (relatively speaking). I have been stuck at bodyweight for bench for a bit, and so I’m trying to increase hypertrophy there in the hope that it will help me improve my strength as well. I also like to work on the shoulders a lot because they are finally growing, and big shoulders rock!

Day 1 - Legs (about 50 minutes because of squats - this is ok timewise):
Squat: 8 x 3
Bulgarian Squat: 3 x 8 - 10
RDL: 3 x 8 - 10

Day 2 - Pull (about 60 minutes - would like to trim a wee bit, but not crit)
pullups: 8 x 3 (I’m week on pullups and find I make good progress like this)
Power Cleans: 3 x 8
Kroc Rows: Pyramid, 4 sets
Snatch Grip High Pull: 3 x 4 - 6
Hammer Curls: 3 x 8 - 12
Barbell Curls: 3 x 8 - 12

Day 3 - Push (about 85 minutes or so, but what can I trim?)
Bench press: 8 x 3 *
Incline DB Bench: 6 x 6
Push Press: 8 x 3 *
Klokov Press: 6 x 6 *
Lat raises: 3 x 8 - 12
Reverse Flyes: 3 x 8 - 12
NGBP: 3 x 8 - 10
Skull Crushers: 3 x 8 - 10

Thanks,

–Me

2

You don’t need 31 sets of bench/shoulder pressing variations in the same day period. I’m not sure what to suggest as you seem to want to keep much of this routine the same. But you shouldn’t require near that much volume to see progress. You may also find that if you trim that volume significantly that you will be able to up the intensity and experience better progress as a result

3

IF you have done this workout all the way through a few times you are the one who probably has the best idea which exercises give you the best bang for your buck. Just cut out some of the redundancies, especially for shoulders. Try it for a little while and see if that helps. Experimentation with one or two variables at a time is the best way to get a program to where you want it to be.

With that said, that much pressing would wreck my shoulders and is unnecessary. At the very least cut off one of the shoulder pressing exercises and maybe even knock off the close grips in favor of a tri isolation that’s easy on the shoulders, pushdowns or something.

4

If it were me, I would do either the push press or the Klokov press in a given workout. I assume NGBP is supposed to be neutral grip BP, or CGBP with a typo…? That’s a shit load of pressing. Not to cast aspersions, but take a good look at your intensity at the beginning of the workout.

Move reverse flys to your pull day and add flys.

5

Without knowing maxes and what kind of weight you are doing during your working sets it is hard to say what to cut and what to keep. Maybe some of your sets are too light, maybe some are too heavy.

6

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
If it were me, I would do either the push press or the Klokov press in a given workout. I assume NGBP is supposed to be neutral grip BP, or CGBP with a typo…? That’s a shit load of pressing. Not to cast aspersions, but take a good look at your intensity at the beginning of the workout.

Move reverse flys to your pull day and add flys. [/quote]

I am guessing narrow grip bench presses, I have seen it written that way a few times and it always blows my mind.

7

[quote]kravi wrote:
Day 3 - Push (about 85 minutes or so, but what can I trim?)
Bench press: 8 x 3 *
Incline DB Bench: 6 x 6
Push Press: 8 x 3 *
Klokov Press: 6 x 6 *
Lat raises: 3 x 8 - 12
Reverse Flyes: 3 x 8 - 12
NGBP: 3 x 8 - 10
Skull Crushers: 3 x 8 - 10[/quote]

A) Flat bench 8x3
B) Incl DB press 6x6
C) Push press or Klokov press (alternate weekly) 8x3/6x6
D1) Bent flye 4x8-12
D2) Lateral raise 4x8-12
E) Skullcrusher 3x8-10

I’m figuring you’re seeing decent results with the rep ranges you’re working in. I know you’ve pretty recently switched to them. The 6x6 incline can probably be trimmed down to 3-4x8-12, since it’s just “assistance”, or dropped to 3 sets and supersetted with a chest flye.

If you’re currently seeing shoulder progress, I’m a bit hesitant to reduce the total shoulder volume, but that superset should shave some time down (one set added to compensate for the dropped exercise).

As was said, one big shoulder press per session is fine. Or you could consider chopping the volume of each in half and running them almost “mechanical advantage”-style: whichever exercise you’re weaker on first, then roll right into the stronger one.

If your arms really are “already strong point”, you’ll be fine with one tri exercise after all the other work. Make it a unilateral exercise if you’re really concerned.

8

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
If it were me, I would do either the push press or the Klokov press in a given workout. I assume NGBP is supposed to be neutral grip BP, or CGBP with a typo…? That’s a shit load of pressing. Not to cast aspersions, but take a good look at your intensity at the beginning of the workout.

Move reverse flys to your pull day and add flys. [/quote]

I am guessing narrow grip bench presses, I have seen it written that way a few times and it always blows my mind.[/quote]

^ This. Sorry, mistranslated to English. Yes, NGBP should be CGBP.

So the big rub is really what to remove. I love push presses. Probably my favourite exercise in the whole world. I really like the Klokov press as well. With the Klokov press could I get away with skiping lat raises? I feel like they both work my delts differently, though.

Bench and incline db bench I feel like i need, as my chest is my weakest point. I can swap out the CGBP for something else, but my shoulders in general feel fine. Now, anyway, after having recovered from a tweak six months ago (martial arts accident, not lifting).

Mmmmmm. Let’s try this so far.

Day 3 - Push (about 85 minutes or so, but what can I trim?)
Bench press: 8 x 3 *
Incline DB Bench: 6 x 6
Push Press: 8 x 3 *
Klokov Press: 6 x 6 *
Some sort of tri isolation exercise: 3 x 8 - 10
Skull Crushers: 3 x 8 - 10

I’m moving the reverse flyes to back day to spare me some time. I hope my shoulders don’t lag without the lat raises, though :confused:

–Me

9

Simple:

  1. Go to your pressday.
    2.do the asterisk exercise only
  2. Note how long it took.GO HOME.
10

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:

[quote]kravi wrote:
Day 3 - Push (about 85 minutes or so, but what can I trim?)
Bench press: 8 x 3 *
Incline DB Bench: 6 x 6
Push Press: 8 x 3 *
Klokov Press: 6 x 6 *
Lat raises: 3 x 8 - 12
Reverse Flyes: 3 x 8 - 12
NGBP: 3 x 8 - 10
Skull Crushers: 3 x 8 - 10[/quote]

A) Flat bench 8x3
B) Incl DB press 6x6
C) Push press or Klokov press (alternate weekly) 8x3/6x6
D1) Bent flye 4x8-12
D2) Lateral raise 4x8-12
E) Skullcrusher 3x8-10

I’m figuring you’re seeing decent results with the rep ranges you’re working in. I know you’ve pretty recently switched to them. The 6x6 incline can probably be trimmed down to 3-4x8-12, since it’s just “assistance”, or dropped to 3 sets and supersetted with a chest flye.

If you’re currently seeing shoulder progress, I’m a bit hesitant to reduce the total shoulder volume, but that superset should shave some time down (one set added to compensate for the dropped exercise).

As was said, one big shoulder press per session is fine. Or you could consider chopping the volume of each in half and running them almost “mechanical advantage”-style: whichever exercise you’re weaker on first, then roll right into the stronger one.

If your arms really are “already strong point”, you’ll be fine with one tri exercise after all the other work. Make it a unilateral exercise if you’re really concerned.[/quote]

Mmmmm. This looks nice, Chris. Sorry, started my earlier response before I saw your response. I’ll give it a shot, gracias!

–Me

11

Now- since im guessing thats too much of a mindf*ck to actually do…even tho I was serious.

  • now in your mind determine whats most important out of the nonasterisk exercises left and add them in untill your at your set time limit.
    -move on w. Life and train Those selected as well as you can.
12

[quote]kravi wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
If it were me, I would do either the push press or the Klokov press in a given workout. I assume NGBP is supposed to be neutral grip BP, or CGBP with a typo…? That’s a shit load of pressing. Not to cast aspersions, but take a good look at your intensity at the beginning of the workout.

Move reverse flys to your pull day and add flys. [/quote]

I am guessing narrow grip bench presses, I have seen it written that way a few times and it always blows my mind.[/quote]

^ This. Sorry, mistranslated to English. Yes, NGBP should be CGBP.

So the big rub is really what to remove. I love push presses. Probably my favourite exercise in the whole world. I really like the Klokov press as well. With the Klokov press could I get away with skiping lat raises? I feel like they both work my delts differently, though.

Bench and incline db bench I feel like i need, as my chest is my weakest point. I can swap out the CGBP for something else, but my shoulders in general feel fine. Now, anyway, after having recovered from a tweak six months ago (martial arts accident, not lifting).

Mmmmmm. Let’s try this so far.

Day 3 - Push (about 85 minutes or so, but what can I trim?)
Bench press: 8 x 3 *
Incline DB Bench: 6 x 6
Push Press: 8 x 3 *
Klokov Press: 6 x 6 *
Some sort of tri isolation exercise: 3 x 8 - 10
Skull Crushers: 3 x 8 - 10

I’m moving the reverse flyes to back day to spare me some time. I hope my shoulders don’t lag without the lat raises, though :confused:

–Me[/quote]

What Chris outlined for you is a better solution. Knocking off the lateral raises isn’t really going to do much. I have found that they are so specific that they really have very little bearing on anything else. Like Chris said, maybe alternate them weekly or put them in an exercise rotation for your next cycle.

13

[quote]kravi wrote:

Day 3 - Push (about 85 minutes or so, but what can I trim?)
Bench press: 8 x 3 *
Incline DB Bench: 6 x 6
Push Press: 8 x 3 *
Klokov Press: 6 x 6 *
Some sort of tri isolation exercise: 3 x 8 - 10
Skull Crushers: 3 x 8 - 10

–Me[/quote]

If this is what you’re enthusiastic about, then run it and let us know how it goes.

If it were me, I would have a Plan B because the cumulative pressing weights are going to start adding up very quickly when you begin to add weight to the bar. You might find yourself keeping a bit in the tank on the last set of your incline DB press because you know you still have another 9 sets of pressing coming up.

I would also reconsider eliminating flys.

14

Yeah, I’m going to try Chris’ recommendation. Try it for a few months and see how I do.

A) Flat bench 8x3
B) Incl DB press 6x6
C) Push press or Klokov press (alternate weekly) 8x3/6x6
D1) Bent flye 4x8-12
D2) Lateral raise 4x8-12
E) Skullcrusher 3x8-10

–Me

15

Day 1 - Legs:
Squat: 8 x 3
Bulgarian Squat: 3 x 8 - 10
RDL: 3 x 8 - 10

Day 2 - Pull
pullups: 8 x 3 (I’m week on pullups and find I make good progress like this)
Power Cleans: 4 x 6
Kroc Rows: Pyramid, 4 sets
Snatch Grip High Pull: 3 x 4 - 6
Barbell Curls: 3 x 8 - 12

Day 3 - Push
Bench press: 8 x 3
Incline DB Bench: 6 x 6
Push Press: 8 x 3, Klokov Press: 6 x 6 (alternated)
Reverse Flyes: 3 x 8 - 12
Lat raises: 3 x 8 - 12
Skull Crushers: 3 x 8 - 10

Day 4: Rest (lots of jumprope)

Rinse and repeat.

So, I still need some help. Everything is going smoothly (in regards to time) but… The push press doesn’t work any more. After benching (for strength) and incline dumbbell presses, my shoulders are bloody weak. I have to take 20 pounds off my push press, and even then I can’t complete 8 x 3.

I’m almost tempted to try to throw it onto leg day (which will give me pull day to to recover before doing push day) as I have both time and space for it there. But it strikes me as awkward. And usually by the time I’m done with legs I feel like a fucking corpse anyway.

Any ideas?

–Me

16

This is one of the logistical issues with PPL and Upper/Lower splits. Everyone tries to fit everything in to make everything a priority.

So first point would be, you can make a few bps a priority and put some on “maintenance” and cycle them back and forth.

no sense duplicating compound after compound after compound press. Add up all the volume for each bp then decide how much more isolations you can comfortably fit in, if its a priority bp in this cycle.

-2cents

17

[quote]giograves wrote:
This is one of the logistical issues with PPL and Upper/Lower splits. Everyone tries to fit everything in to make everything a priority. [/quote]
This. Push-pull-legs is a solid plan, but it can be easy to go overboard with, especially if you have issues reeling in an instinct to give “just a little more attention” to whatever bodypart.

[quote]kravi wrote:
The push press doesn’t work any more. After benching (for strength) and incline dumbbell presses, my shoulders are bloody weak. I have to take 20 pounds off my push press, and even then I can’t complete 8 x 3.[/quote]
Consider switching the “chest” portion of your session to something like I mentioned earlier. Instead of 6 sets of incline DB press, supersets flat flyes (or pec deck, whatever) with incline db press, 3-4x8-12. Flye first, then the press. That should reduce the shoulder stimulus.

Also, look at the bigger picture. The day immediately prior to your push workout, you’re doing power cleans and Kroc rows and snatch-grip high pulls. That’s a lot of upper back/trap/delt stimulation. Consider making a change, possibly “regular”/strict dumbbell, cable, or barbell rows instead of Krocs.

If this is an option, then you’re not truly tied down to a “push-pull-legs” split, which is certainly fine and may give you some more perspective on, like Gio was saying, considering if that’s really the best training template for your current goals.

18

[quote]kravi wrote:
Day 1 - Legs:
Squat: 8 x 3
Bulgarian Squat: 3 x 8 - 10
RDL: 3 x 8 - 10

Day 2 - Pull
pullups: 8 x 3 (I’m week on pullups and find I make good progress like this)
Power Cleans: 4 x 6
Kroc Rows: Pyramid, 4 sets
Snatch Grip High Pull: 3 x 4 - 6
Barbell Curls: 3 x 8 - 12

Day 3 - Push
Bench press: 8 x 3
Incline DB Bench: 6 x 6
Push Press: 8 x 3, Klokov Press: 6 x 6 (alternated)
Reverse Flyes: 3 x 8 - 12
Lat raises: 3 x 8 - 12
Skull Crushers: 3 x 8 - 10

Day 4: Rest (lots of jumprope)

Rinse and repeat.

So, I still need some help. Everything is going smoothly (in regards to time) but… The push press doesn’t work any more. After benching (for strength) and incline dumbbell presses, my shoulders are bloody weak. I have to take 20 pounds off my push press, and even then I can’t complete 8 x 3.

I’m almost tempted to try to throw it onto leg day (which will give me pull day to to recover before doing push day) as I have both time and space for it there. But it strikes me as awkward. And usually by the time I’m done with legs I feel like a fucking corpse anyway.

Any ideas?

–Me[/quote]

I am running a similar PPL except I just the Strict Press vs the Push Press. I am actually leaning toward rotating my Press and Bench as my main lift and then do the other one second with a lighter load. Inc DB Presses are mostly just an accessory move for me anyway so I don’t sweat those to much. Do what I can do and go with it. I also personally feel like you are getting plenty of rear delt stimuli from your back day and would probably pull that in favor of a tricep isolation or maybe a chest isolation depending on need. But that’s just me.

19

If you are training for size and strength and you are not getting either, you are overtraining. Not in the sense of raised body temperature, fatigue, etc..but rather you are doing a lot of work with no improvement. That should be your first clue that something has to change.
Bench press: 8 x 3 * cut to 6 sets
Incline DB Bench: 6 x 6 cut to 4 sets
Push Press: 8 x 3 * cut to 6 sets
Klokov Press: 6 x 6 * cut to 4 sets
Lat raises: 3 x 8 - 12 this is fine
Reverse Flyes: 3 x 8 - 12 move to back day perhaps.
NGBP: 3 x 8 - 10 this is fine
Skull Crushers: 3 x 8 - 10 this is fine

Now…If you have trained in this same rep range with the same load, why would your body adapt? It is doing what it is used to.

20

[quote]kravi wrote:
Day 1 - Legs:
Squat: 8 x 3
Bulgarian Squat: 3 x 8 - 10
RDL: 3 x 8 - 10

Day 2 - Pull
pullups: 8 x 3 (I’m week on pullups and find I make good progress like this)
Power Cleans: 4 x 6
Kroc Rows: Pyramid, 4 sets
Snatch Grip High Pull: 3 x 4 - 6
Barbell Curls: 3 x 8 - 12

Day 3 - Push
Bench press: 8 x 3
Incline DB Bench: 6 x 6
Push Press: 8 x 3, Klokov Press: 6 x 6 (alternated)
Reverse Flyes: 3 x 8 - 12
Lat raises: 3 x 8 - 12
Skull Crushers: 3 x 8 - 10

Day 4: Rest (lots of jumprope)

Rinse and repeat.

So, I still need some help. Everything is going smoothly (in regards to time) but… The push press doesn’t work any more. After benching (for strength) and incline dumbbell presses, my shoulders are bloody weak. I have to take 20 pounds off my push press, and even then I can’t complete 8 x 3.

I’m almost tempted to try to throw it onto leg day (which will give me pull day to to recover before doing push day) as I have both time and space for it there. But it strikes me as awkward. And usually by the time I’m done with legs I feel like a fucking corpse anyway.

Any ideas?

–Me[/quote]

you could try swapping out main lifts every 4 weeks or so like this:

wk 1-4
bench press (main lift) 8 x 3
push press 6 x 6, 4 x 8, whatever (just not 8 x 3)
klokov press 6 x 6, 4 x 8, etc
reverse fly/lateral raise supersets 3-4 x 8-12 (i like 2-3 x 15-20 for these)
skullcrushers

then wks 5-8
push press (main lift) 8 x 3
klokov press 4-6 x 6-8
DB bench 4-6 x 6-8
reverse fly/lat raise superset
skull crushers

8 x 3 routines run me down pretty fast, i wouldn’t recommend doing that for more than one exercise in the same workout