Hang Clean Question

Training Powerlifting
1

i’ve see people doing hang cleans using huge amounts of body english, basically resting the bar just above the knee and rocking back and forth a couple times to start the clean.

assuming that hang cleans are a way to add more speed to the power equation by doing equal work in less time/distance, isn’t it then essential to work the clean with as little intial momentum as possible ? i mean, if it’s so heavy you need to rock, why not just start the clean from the floor ?

is this defeating the purpose or is this an entirely different exercise focused simply on moving maximal weight ?

also i see the same people picking up their feet like they’re trying to catch air or something. but when i watch olympic level guys their motion is so economical…they seem to adjust just enough to recieve the clean.

thanks for your input.

2

I’m not an oly-lifter, but I go to a gym that is oly-lifter oriented.

Of all the lifters performing hang cleans, hang snatches, etc., I’ve never seen anyone rock the weight back and forth. This seems completely pointless, except to claim larger numbers.

I’ve seen one lifter looking like he’s trying to get air on the lift. I don’t know whether he won’t listen to the other lifters or what, but he insists on doing this. His lifts are sub-par. I can’t imagine there being any benefit to doing this, and I’m pretty sure it’s just that he doesn’t know what the hell he’s doing.

Watch good oly lifters or videos of good oly lifters. You won’t see this kind of stuff. I’m fairly convinced that you’re simply watching fucktards at your gym.

3

[quote]magnetnerd wrote:
I’m not an oly-lifter, but I go to a gym that is oly-lifter oriented.

Of all the lifters performing hang cleans, hang snatches, etc., I’ve never seen anyone rock the weight back and forth. This seems completely pointless, except to claim larger numbers.

I’ve seen one lifter looking like he’s trying to get air on the lift. I don’t know whether he won’t listen to the other lifters or what, but he insists on doing this. His lifts are sub-par. I can’t imagine there being any benefit to doing this, and I’m pretty sure it’s just that he doesn’t know what the hell he’s doing.

Watch good oly lifters or videos of good oly lifters. You won’t see this kind of stuff. I’m fairly convinced that you’re simply watching fucktards at your gym.[/quote]

yeah i don’t see the point to it either but i’m no expert by any stretch…i would’ve thought they were fucktards also but i go to a college gym and i see team guys doing this and some girls also so i figure they’ve been coached…that doesn’t really mean much, or it could mean the coach is a fucktard…still it’s enough to make me wonder. thanks for the reply.

4

I still do them, and in the fashion that I was taught back when I played football.

I don’t know about the rocking thing- I’ve never even heard of that.

However, we were taught to jump and get under the weight, and then stand with it at shoulder level. So if that’s what you mean by “getting air”, then I guess I do that.

I’ve been doing it for so long that it seems like second nature, and whoever I’ve seen on the college football team does this also. Just my experience.

5

i have only seen the rocking technique once, and the guy had no idea what he was doing. That is an easy way to strain a back muscle because in my opinion it shows that you are using too much weight.

the “jumping” you see the pro’s doing is a result of the extra energy exerted by the lifter. you should not try to jump, it should be a result of powerful legs and initia that gets you off the ground.

kasomak

6

[quote]Kasomak wrote:
i have only seen the rocking technique once, and the guy had no idea what he was doing. That is an easy way to strain a back muscle because in my opinion it shows that you are using too much weight.

the “jumping” you see the pro’s doing is a result of the extra energy exerted by the lifter. you should not try to jump, it should be a result of powerful legs and initia that gets you off the ground.

kasomak[/quote]

yes. the way i think about it energy used for getting off the ground would be better used going into the bar. all you really need to do w/ your feet is reset them a bit wider to recieve the weight. i know some people “stomp” to do this and i can understand wanting to get the feet firmly reset as fast as possible. to that end the jumping thing seems counter-productive. i suppose if you’re power-cleaning it doesn’t matter so much.

7

i just found on youtube exactly what i’m talking about. especially the chicks later in the vid and the guys in the background. this is the same thing they’re doing at the college i go to. wtf ??

8

[quote]swivel wrote:

assuming that hang cleans are a way to add more speed to the power equation by doing equal work in less time/distance, isn’t it then essential to work the clean with as little intial momentum as possible ? i mean, if it’s so heavy you need to rock, why not just start the clean from the floor ?[/quote]

I agree, I would even assert that the rocking they do imparts horizontal velocity rather than vertical momentum. Judging by their jump height (see below) as well, they’re nowhere near a maximum, so rocking is just ruining their technique.

With a low enough weight, generating the same amount of explosive power requires that your feet leave the ground. You see the pros ‘jump’ only 1-2 inches because they use massive poundages and all the power goes into moving the weight. Some of the coaches around here advocate this jump and it’s not wrong.

However it promotes what you see in the video where the weight is lifted and the trainee tries to perform a hamstring curl in midair rather than actually propelling themselves into the air with the weight. It represents significant deviation from optimal Oly form, IMO, and isn’t going to win them any awards in weightlifting. Which is like trying to get as strong as the Westside guys by doing board presses but you bounce the weights off the boards and your chest a couple of times before you press it back up. Honestly, this looks like something DieselWeasel would come up with.

I’m not a coach, this is just my $.02.

9

I think they are trying to replicate the transitional body position from 1st pull to 2nd pull.

10

[quote]swivel wrote:
i just found on youtube exactly what i’m talking about. especially the chicks later in the vid and the guys in the background. this is the same thing they’re doing at the college i go to. wtf ??

Yeah, those jumps are way high. I think it may be acceptable to have a TINY bit of ground clearance, but I’m talking fractions of an inch. Even that I’m not positive on - I’ll ask some people tonight if I remember at the gym.

Oh, and the people at my gym are competitive athletes, being coached by a reputable coach. Just, you know, for the record.

11

1st they dont even hit their thighs on the explosion.

2nd, rocking the bar up like that just makes you loose strenght.

A real hang power clean is basically lowering the weight a few inches (depends if you want under or just at the knees) you pull it up to the point where you should hit it on your thighs and you explode.

They look like pendulum rocking back and forth before actually lifting it (without hitting it on the thighs).

12

[quote]lucasa wrote:

I agree, I would even assert that the rocking they do imparts horizontal velocity rather than vertical momentum. Judging by their jump height (see below) as well, they’re nowhere near a maximum, so rocking is just ruining their technique.

with a low enough weight, generating the same amount of explosive power requires that your feet leave the ground. You see the pros ‘jump’ only 1-2 inches because they use massive poundages and all the power goes into moving the weight. Some of the coaches around here advocate this jump and it’s not wrong.

However it promotes what you see in the video where the weight is lifted and the trainee tries to perform a hamstring curl in midair rather than actually propelling themselves into the air with the weight. It represents significant deviation from optimal Oly form, IMO, and isn’t going to win them any awards in weightlifting. Which is like trying to get as strong as the Westside guys by doing board presses but you bounce the weights off the boards and your chest a couple of times before you press it back up. Honestly, this looks like something DieselWeasel would come up with.

I’m not a coach, this is just my $.02.[/quote]

i agree you will take off if the weight is light. and i’m coming to understand it’s really how you take off that matters. RITjared pointed out to me in a pm, the reason this technique is limited is simply because full extension is not happening.

it’s like someone’s teaching them to inhibit hip extension by absorbing that energy with the hamstring curl. and, like you said, just ruining their technique.

13

I’m a university football player in canada and we done hang cleans and hang snatches. When they teach us to do cleans and snatches they focus on the explosions in the hips which is why it is such a great lift for athletes. When you explode your hips forward your feet can come off the ground, thats why it is important to drop your ass and set your feet (especially snatch).

Some examples i’ve heard various coaches use is to pretend you’re doing a tall chick from behind. It sounds funny but imagine it… The rocking to me seems pointless but the feet coming off the ground does not.

14

[quote]kennedyk wrote:
I’m a university football player in canada and we done hang cleans and hang snatches. When they teach us to do cleans and snatches they focus on the explosions in the hips which is why it is such a great lift for athletes. When you explode your hips forward your feet can come off the ground, thats why it is important to drop your ass and set your feet (especially snatch).

Some examples i’ve heard various coaches use is to pretend you’re doing a tall chick from behind. It sounds funny but imagine it… The rocking to me seems pointless but the feet coming off the ground does not. [/quote]

i agree with you that the feet coming up is essential but as you say in your post “you explode your hips forward” this is what should cause the to come off the ground. if you watch the vid none of them are extending their hips, and it’s like they’re picking up their feet just to pick up their feet. not because they’ve generated so much explosive lift that leaving the ground is a by-product of that.

i’m still not sure about this…i see that the guy who posted it was strength coach for the bruins for 15 years!! -as well as b.u.hockey and u.s. women’s olympic hockey…definitely not your average “fucktard”. the more i watch it it’s like they’re deliberately not extending their hips…

15

alright, I’m going to chime in here. Bad form on the last several hang cleans in the video. USAW teaches a top down approach to O lifts…for instance: clean from the hang, hang clean from above knee, hang clean from below the knee and clean from the floor.

It looks as if the women are attmepting to do the “lower” forms of the hang clean (from just above knee, although the bar is low enough that they should be going from below the knee). They are actually resting the bar on their quads indicating that they aren’t pushing their hips back far enough. They are thrusting their hips forward which gives them the feel that they are accelerating the bar, but in reality this pushes the bar into a horizontal trajectory away from the body.

This temporarily allows them to use a little more weight, but this will quickly stall as it will negatively effect their ability to drop under the weight during the catch and rack. They would be better off removing some weight and sticking with quality technique.

As for the feet coming off of the floor, this is a result of a hard pull, not the main goal in a clean. When pulling from the floor, the feet are narrower than the actual squat stance required to stand up with the weight. Weightlifters will jump their feet outward into a wider stance when making the catch. Feet leaving the floor during a hang clean is normal and usually ceases as the weight becomes heavier.

16

I was under the impression that one’s feet could leave the ground, but the rocking you described sounds funny and is probably just a by-product of poor form.

I think the explosion of the hips is just part of the nature of the lift.

I mean, I don’t see anyone jutting their hips way forward, but the explosion upward would involve a snapping of the hips and a lot of power from the legs.

17

[quote]deadgame wrote:
alright, I’m going to chime in here. Bad form on the last several hang cleans in the video. USAW teaches a top down approach to O lifts…for instance: clean from the hang, hang clean from above knee, hang clean from below the knee and clean from the floor.

It looks as if the women are attmepting to do the “lower” forms of the hang clean (from just above knee, although the bar is low enough that they should be going from below the knee). They are actually resting the bar on their quads indicating that they aren’t pushing their hips back far enough. They are thrusting their hips forward which gives them the feel that they are accelerating the bar, but in reality this pushes the bar into a horizontal trajectory away from the body.

This temporarily allows them to use a little more weight, but this will quickly stall as it will negatively effect their ability to drop under the weight during the catch and rack. They would be better off removing some weight and sticking with quality technique.

As for the feet coming off of the floor, this is a result of a hard pull, not the main goal in a clean. When pulling from the floor, the feet are narrower than the actual squat stance required to stand up with the weight. Weightlifters will jump their feet outward into a wider stance when making the catch. Feet leaving the floor during a hang clean is normal and usually ceases as the weight becomes heavier.[/quote]

nice post.

18

[quote]swivel wrote:
kennedyk wrote:
I’m a university football player in canada and we done hang cleans and hang snatches. When they teach us to do cleans and snatches they focus on the explosions in the hips which is why it is such a great lift for athletes. When you explode your hips forward your feet can come off the ground, thats why it is important to drop your ass and set your feet (especially snatch).

Some examples i’ve heard various coaches use is to pretend you’re doing a tall chick from behind. It sounds funny but imagine it… The rocking to me seems pointless but the feet coming off the ground does not.

i agree with you that the feet coming up is essential but as you say in your post “you explode your hips forward” this is what should cause the to come off the ground. if you watch the vid none of them are extending their hips, and it’s like they’re picking up their feet just to pick up their feet. not because they’ve generated so much explosive lift that leaving the ground is a by-product of that.

i’m still not sure about this…i see that the guy who posted it was strength coach for the bruins for 15 years!! -as well as b.u.hockey and u.s. women’s olympic hockey…definitely not your average “fucktard”. the more i watch it it’s like they’re deliberately not extending their hips…
[/quote]

It’s Michael Boyle, a prominent strength coach, pretty well known in the industry.

HOWEVER, propeling the weight up and outside by bumping the weight with the lower thigh (extension at calve), goes against everything I know to do. Not only is the weight traveling in an improper path, but they are not pulling their hips through.

I don’t care who posted it, I refuse to clean that way.

19

Also, a weightlifters feet will usually leave the ground. So much so, that a stomp is often heard as the feet move LATERALLY outward. As for the feet coming forward, this will do nothing positive as far as I can see. In a power clean I don’t see negative, but if the feet come forward during a squat clean will really screw up the balance on the catch.

I agree with pretty much everything deadhang said.

20

yeah …i think it’s wack. but who am i to say i mean the guy coaches the frickn bruins !

anyway i logged in and asked him on his site. here it is:(i’m carter)

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

www.michaelboyle.biz/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1892#1892

hi coach boyle, i found you on youtube studying assorted athletes and their oly technique. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AFHZ20s2Ho

i’ve seen a number of athletes at my school using the technique in your hang clean vid and i’ve always wondered about it. specifically why use so much body english to start the clean and why leave the ground unless explosion, evidenced by full hip entension is causing you to ? the more i watch the vid the more it looks like they’re deliberately not reaching full extension and absorbing that energy by doing some sort of hamstring curl. is this by design ? i would think this technique would become pretty limited once you can’t muscle up the weight any more.

anyway i’m genuinely curious about this as i’ve never been coached and for the most part piecemeal all of my liftiing knowledge from the net and who ever i can talk to. thanks.

-carter

and the response

Carter-
1- That was five women in a row cleaning 135 . 4 did for it 5 reps. One was a high school senior. I’d say my concept seems to work.
2- I don’t see as pronounced a heel kick as you do. I would say that is a flaw on athletes 2,3 and 5 but, all keep the bar close to the body, catch well and obviously have great hip power. The feet move up in an effort to get under the bar. I don’t love it but, don’t hate it enough to spend a lot of time correcting it.
3- What you call body english is actually called double knee bend or rotary hip action. Try to jump without rocking your hips. You won’t get very high.
Interestingly enough Denis Reno, a great OL coach, watched our athletes lift and liked the double knee bend.

It’s a matter of taste I guess. We have used these methods for about twenty years with great success. The big keys in olympic lifting are using the hips, keeping the bar close to the body, and catching in good position. If my athletes do this I consider it a success.

Michael Boyle
www.michaelboyle.biz

i felt his answer was pretty wacked and was kinda defensive. was i attacking him ? i wanted to follow up with some questions but everything about his answer just made me think of wicked sarcastic stuff and i couldn’t get out any questions without attacking the guy, on his own site no less, and ifigured it wouldn’t get anywhere so i just bit my toungue and thanked him. what the hell do i really know anyway.

sooo…i really don’t get his comment about " try to jump w/o rocking your hips you won’t get very high" is the point to jump high ? i see plenty of oly lifters hang cleaning w/o this motion…

that first guy who responded was like " looking at the vid those girls are definitely extending…" wtf vid was he looking at ? what am i missing ? and 60 kg is “pretty badass” ??

help …i feel like i’m high…wait i am high…no that was yesterday uh…?