Hang Clean Question

Training Powerlifting
21

[quote]swivel wrote:
yeah …i think it’s wack. but who am i to say i mean the guy coaches the frickn bruins !
[/quote]

You’d be surprised how many pro coaches kinda suck.

OMGWTFLOL 135?!?! That’s nothing special, especially among serious athletes. I kinda feel embarassed that he’s bragging about that and using it for justification.

He must have clicked the bench press link on youtube or something, it’s huge and wrong.

Eh, sorta. Could be a lot better though, especially on #4.

That is correct.

That they’re not using well. You’re right, their triple extension sucks.

Imagine a Jon Stewart George W. Bush imitation voice here: “It’s like swimming, see? Air’s a fluid, so’s water. You have to pull yourself through it with your heels to move down, git it?”

The previous posts cover what’s supposed to happen with that, you get a little air with light weights. Given how high they were getting, 135 is really fucking light for their strength.

Doesn’t take long to fix…

Oh thank God, those terms needed a newer, wackier definition from their accepted use everywhere else. The entire point of the double knee bend is to get into position for the second pull. A hang clean IS the second pull. Start in the correct position, don’t fuck up the movement pattern for full cleans by screwing around with it here.

Um. What? Maybe I’m not getting what he means by rocking. Either that or he’s never seen someone jump. I’m guessing the former.

Is he an American coach who’s coached at the OTC? If so, that’d be cause enough to do the opposite. (google didn’t find who he is) Motor learning says what they’re doing is bad.

As is all good form and proper technique, obviously.

Uh… check?

…check?

Ah, finally one that the athletes in the video do.

Ruh roh Scooby.

-Dan

Maybe I shouldn’t have replied directly after watching the Colbert Report. Eh, doesn’t make it any less true. Theirs is not form to be mimicked.

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Addendum:

“Provided By:
Michael Boyle - the foremost expert on Functional Training”

Oh Lord.

23

[quote]buffalokilla wrote:

3- What you call body english is actually called double knee bend or rotary hip action.

Oh thank God, those terms needed a newer, wackier definition from their accepted use everywhere else. The entire point of the double knee bend is to get into position for the second pull. A hang clean IS the second pull. Start in the correct position, don’t fuck up the movement pattern for full cleans by screwing around with it here.

[/quote]

Dude, seriously.
Proper set up for a hang clean is kind of like a romanian deadlift. However, they are essentially getting into squat position (end posiion of first pull) and then using a much EXAGGERATED knee bend before doing the second pull. This knee bend is forcing the weight AWAY from their body, something that Coach Boyle repeatedly says they are doing properly.

A HANG CLEAN IS THE SECOND PULL.

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I can’t say that I like the way those hang cleans are done either.

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Very interesting thread.

I’m not extremely experienced in the hang-clean department, but by looking at the video:

  • It looks as though their bars are moving with too much forward movement. The bar is travelling in an arc. I think this might be due to that double hop method that the coach was talking about. Bouncing it off the thighs is causing the forward movement. Surely this isn’t the most efficient way to get the bar up.

  • It looks as though they’re starting too much from a squat position. Especially lifter 3. So by the start of the clean, they should be further over the bar.

  • The heels kicking up - what’s up with this? Does anyone else think that this might be linked somehow to the excessive arc of the travel of the bar?

I believe I get what he means by trying to jump from a static position. When you ask someone to jump as high as they can, they invariably bounce one or twice to gain some of that great stretch reflex. I think that’s what the coach is trying to acheive here.

And to the coach - if your athletes have form issues - HELP THEM, YOU PRICK!

26

“The feet move up in an effort to get under the bar”

Dear god… if they’re going to kick their heels up while they’re in mid air, what’s the point if they simply put them back down before landing?

Maybe they could lift more if they don’t mind landing on their knees…

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[quote]swivel wrote:
yeah …i think it’s wack. but who am i to say i mean the guy coaches the frickn bruins !
[/quote]

ummm, don’t get me wrong, I’m a die hard Bruins fan, but in case you haven’t noticed, they haven’t won the cup in a while. Christ, if this guy was affiliated with the team last year he should be shot. Half the team was too out of shape to avoid injury (Raycroft, Toivenin, Zhamnov, etc…) let alone play well. I can’t see the video right now (youtube’s blocked at work) but from the guy’s response he sounded rather like an idiot.

Jay

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The heels typically kick back towards the butt when the lifter attempts to make the feet leave the ground to achieve the “jump”, rather than apply maximum force to the ground(and to the bar) which is what “jump” actually implies.

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[quote]RagingBull wrote:
I believe I get what he means by trying to jump from a static position. When you ask someone to jump as high as they can, they invariably bounce one or twice to gain some of that great stretch reflex. I think that’s what the coach is trying to acheive here.
[/quote]

Oh, okay, that makes sense if it’s what he meant. I still wouldn’t do it due to an increased risk of form dropping off with a multiple bounce method in a clean, though I can see the reasons in favor of it.

-Dan

30

[quote]Willus wrote:
The heels typically kick back towards the butt when the lifter attempts to make the feet leave the ground to achieve the “jump”, rather than apply maximum force to the ground(and to the bar) which is what “jump” actually implies.[/quote]

You may be right. Good one.

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[quote]m0dd3r wrote:
swivel wrote:
yeah …i think it’s wack. but who am i to say i mean the guy coaches the frickn bruins !

ummm, don’t get me wrong, I’m a die hard Bruins fan, but in case you haven’t noticed, they haven’t won the cup in a while. Christ, if this guy was affiliated with the team last year he should be shot. Half the team was too out of shape to avoid injury (Raycroft, Toivenin, Zhamnov, etc…) let alone play well. I can’t see the video right now (youtube’s blocked at work) but from the guy’s response he sounded rather like an idiot.

Jay[/quote]

yeah i was pretty disappointed with his answer. he sounds like he doesn’t really know what he’s talking about. otherwise he’d just explain his concept instead of defending it. i still can’t get over the guy who said they have “fast elbows” and “60kg is pretty bad-ass”.

anyway can someone help me with this “jump” idea… is it truly a lift-off from excess force being applied or is a to drop under, like the carpet being pulled out or a bit of both ?

32

[quote]swivel wrote:
anyway can someone help me with this “jump” idea… is it truly a lift-off from excess force being applied or is a to drop under, like the carpet being pulled out or a bit of both ?[/quote]

It’s usually excess force. There are some lifters who need to do the first pull in one foot position then catch in a slightly different one. They’ll jump slightly on purpose, obviously.

Some foot elevation can also occur because the lifter is pulling him/herself under the bar so quickly that the action of the hip flexors will pull the feet off the floor while the bar is still moving upward. This usually happens when technique isn’t quite up to strength levels as I understand it, slight matter of optimizing the timing of the second pull and the shrug. I could be wrong on that though.

-Dan

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[quote]buffalokilla wrote:
swivel wrote:
anyway can someone help me with this “jump” idea… is it truly a lift-off from excess force being applied or is a to drop under, like the carpet being pulled out or a bit of both ?

It’s usually excess force. There are some lifters who need to do the first pull in one foot position then catch in a slightly different one. They’ll jump slightly on purpose, obviously.

Some foot elevation can also occur because the lifter is pulling him/herself under the bar so quickly that the action of the hip flexors will pull the feet off the floor while the bar is still moving upward. This usually happens when technique isn’t quite up to strength levels as I understand it, slight matter of optimizing the timing of the second pull and the shrug. I could be wrong on that though.

-Dan[/quote]

that’s interesting. the balance between technique and strength is probably shifting all the time.

the more i watch those videos the more i realize how lame that guy is. what he said about how the girls are all “keeping the bar close to the body” is just wrong. is he delusional ? like someone said before there’s actually horizontal movement away from the body. do you guys see this ? in fact i don’t think they could get further away if they tried. watching dimas clean and the bar is right on him and he’s fully extended. if you pause it mid-way it’s like he’s putting the wood to the bar. these chicks are nowhere near that unless they’ve got 14 in d’s. i mean i’m sure what they’re doing is good exercise and i bet they get stronger for hockey or whatever, but to call that olympic lifting i think is just not right. at the very least it’s pretty confusing.

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He was the S&C coach of the NHL Bruins from 1991-1999. 'nuff said.

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[quote]lucasa wrote:
He was the S&C coach of the NHL Bruins from 1991-1999. 'nuff said.[/quote]

you mean cause the b’s were so frickn dominant in the 90’s right ? ok, i admit the being star struck clouded my vision .

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[quote]swivel wrote:

you mean cause the b’s were so frickn dominant in the 90’s right ? ok, i admit the being star struck clouded my vision.[/quote]

Yeah, in the latter half of the '90s, if you found yourself playing for a team whose biggest “rival” is the Canadiens you know you need to find a new team.

Don’t beat yourself up too much, the Denis Reno namedrop has got me scratching my head.

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[quote]lucasa wrote:
swivel wrote:

you mean cause the b’s were so frickn dominant in the 90’s right ? ok, i admit the being star struck clouded my vision.

Yeah, in the latter half of the '90s, if you found yourself playing for a team whose biggest “rival” is the Canadiens you know you need to find a new team.

Don’t beat yourself up too much, the Denis Reno namedrop has got me scratching my head.[/quote]

i’ll bet he was just being polite and figured something like “hey they’re not training to be lifters and it prolly gets them stronger for hockey” .
that’s all i can think of. it says alot that boyle chose to namedrop instead of speaking for himself and explaining why he thinks this is good technique.

people can workout however they want and will get results from it for awhile anyways. but the part where i’m a guy looking to study olympic technique and i come across that vid listed as “women’s olympic lifting” by a coach with a pro-reputation, well that’s pretty confusing bullshit cause “lifting” that is but “olympic” that ain’t. if-ah-may- be-so-bold-to-say.

38

[quote]Kliplemet wrote:
swivel wrote:

anyway can someone help me with this “jump” idea… is it truly a lift-off from excess force being applied or is a to drop under, like the carpet being pulled out or a bit of both ?

when they jump from the extended position upwards, they are simply losing time to get under the bar

just extend as far as is possible and drop like a bomb, when you are amploying a rather narrow pulling position, the feet will move out automatially during the drop BUT NOT AT THE TOP OF THE PULL!!

i recently did a couple of days training with a very good ukranian coach, he was really big on the “jump” thing, however it was jumping DOWN not up,meanning moveing very agressively under the barbel andjumping out, while putting force on the bar with the arms to achive a strong position under the barbell. but he totally agreed it is insane to jump upwards[/quote]

this makes total sense to me.

i suppose everyone has a different sort of idea in their head but when i started trying to drop under,as you say “like a bomb” things felt alot smoother/faster. before that i was always consciously thinking about placing my feet and always had more outward movement than i thought i should …

so then i was thinking about not moving them out so much etc and never seemed to get it right and was always thinking about where my feet are/going to be which is dumb cause i don’t have to concentrate on my feet for anything else i do…today i was fooling around with just letting go and dropping and the foot placement just happened all by itself. and i picked up some noticeable speed :slight_smile:

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[quote]Kliplemet wrote:

i recently did a couple of days training with a very good ukranian coach, he was really big on the “jump” thing, however it was jumping DOWN not up,meanning moveing very agressively under the barbel andjumping out, while putting force on the bar with the arms to achive a strong position under the barbell. but he totally agreed it is insane to jump upwards[/quote]

Supposedly, the pull under the bar in the clean is the fastest movement in sports. No reference, but I’ve heard that a few places now.

40

[quote]RagingBull wrote:

And to the coach - if your athletes have form issues - HELP THEM, YOU PRICK!

[/quote]

i have a feeling the coach may not be totally informed on the proper way to train with or for o-lifts. i have seen a lot of “trainers” and coaches talk so highly of o-lifts only to see them instruct them incorrectly. what leads me to dog on this coach so much is that he seemed very defensive of his method. i bet you he has had more than a few people injure themselves