where and how long you been training carter?
[quote]MikeSh wrote:
where and how long you been training carter?[/quote]
Weight training or Jiu Jitsu and Muay Thai?
i meant jitsu, but why not share your life story 
[quote]carter12 wrote:
ZachDelDesert wrote:
most of the guys who train mma fighters that have read Waterbury’s “Hammer Down” program seem to think he is completely out of his element when it comes to fight training. Ive even seen one call his program “absurd.”
That’s pretty funny considering I’ve increased my squat by 30 lbs. and deadlift by about 25 lbs. since doing the Strength portion of that program (about 40 days…while also losing some scale weight). My bench has stayed around the same but my pulling strength has increased tremendously.
The Endurance portion has allowed me to make much better use of my mat time and sparring sessions as I don’t get tired nearly as quickly.
How’s that for “absurd”?
There is no perfect way to train for anything. Weight training should focus on getting you stronger. Hammer Down does just that while also allowing you to train hard at technique without overtraining.
No disrespect to you. I felt like I had to defend the program because the comments you’ve read were probably by other trainers who happen to be involved in a very competitive industry.
[/quote]
damn, dont kill the messenger. a small portion of the criticisms ive heard are here: http://mma.tv/tuf/index.cfm?ac=ListMessages&PID=1&TID=799795&FID=24&pc=38
taku and adam singer both train fighters. adam singer i believe trained diego sanchez, and you may have seen his brother Rory on tuf3.
to address your response, im not surprised that you made gains in the 3 powerlifts as (duh) the hammer down program focused very much on increasing them. one of the biggest criticisms ive heard is of chads “base” levels of strength recommendations and how they would form competitive powerlifting totals.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
The fact that YOU think he needs a more optimal training program means what exactly?
Which brings me back to my original point. How do YOU know he’s not training at his optimum?
Becuase he’s not following a T-Nation program?
Funny stuff!
[/quote]
My god! You still think I’m arguing with his methods. I haven’t said he needs anything. You are jumping to conclusions.
The guy is world class, his numbers are most likely amazing. He trains like a demon.
My original point, though, is that from this training plan, many coaches (who have have excellent results and do loads of empirical research) would do his strength and conditioning differently. I’m not saying he would definitely get better, I’m hypothesising.
All I’m saying is that from the info on his website, it is POSSIBLE that he could get even more phenomenal.
If you disagree that that would be the case, or even disagree that the coaches programs on this site are any good, thats OK, thats your opinion.
I was originally just sharing some info that I thought people may find interesting.
It is a small point.
Why argue the toss over this?
(Sorry for the hijack on this; I felt I had to defend my position)
[quote]SquatDr wrote:
Zell959 wrote:
Small time fighter, yet one of the strongest.
he’s strong theres not doubt about that, but those arent real squats!
[/quote]
SquatDr you are so right. Nowhere near deep enough, but I’m a stickler for form.
[quote]ZachDelDesert wrote:
damn, dont kill the messenger. a small portion of the criticisms ive heard are here: http://mma.tv/tuf/index.cfm?ac=ListMessages&PID=1&TID=799795&FID=24&pc=38
taku and adam singer both train fighters. adam singer i believe trained diego sanchez, and you may have seen his brother Rory on tuf3.
to address your response, im not surprised that you made gains in the 3 powerlifts as (duh) the hammer down program focused very much on increasing them. one of the biggest criticisms ive heard is of chads “base” levels of strength recommendations and how they would form competitive powerlifting totals. [/quote]
Chad made a big mistake in quoting those numbers. Because of that, everyone latched on to how high they are instead of the fact that he laid out a great program, and the main goal he was stressing is that FIGHTERS SHOULD STRIVE TO BE STRONGER.
Ignore the 3 times bodyweight squat goal etc. (which he backed off from in his second article), and I have no problem with his program. I doubt many other trainers would either. It’s just a low volume-high intensity strength routine with effort given to increase carry over to sport-specific training.
[quote]Donut62 wrote:
Chad made a big mistake i nquoting those numbers. Because of that, everyone focuses on how rediculous they are instead of the fact that he laid out a great program, and the main goal that he was stressing is that FIGHTERS SHOULD STRIVE TO BE STRONGER.
Ignore the 3 times bodyweight squat goal (which he backed off from in his second article), and I have no problem with his program, and I doubt many other trainers would either. It’s just a low volume-high intensity strength routine with effort given to increase carry-over to sport-specific training.
[/quote]
I agree.
The way I think he meant it was that those numbers would be the standard for an imagined “complete fighter”.
I think he had some other criteria that he mentioned in a D-Tap interview, like full splits and an 18 minute 3-mile run.
In the article, it came out more like he expected most fighters to be able to do that, which I don’t think he intended. Rather it should be a goal to aspire to.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
VorteX wrote:
…But you can still go and “live it” with a more optimal training program. I’m just musing that he could make some even greater improvements.
The fact that YOU think he needs a more optimal training program means what exactly?
Which brings me back to my original point. How do YOU know he’s not training at his optimum?
Becuase he’s not following a T-Nation program?
Funny stuff!
[/quote]
Zeb,
This is starting to sound a lot like an argument we had on another thread about guys who lift weight but don’t want to get huge. Some guys think that’s stupid, like we all want to weight 270lbs and bench 500. Matt Hughes is the toughest guy on the planet and has proved it, but somebody has to chime in with criticism like “well, imagine if he really worked on his bench press and squat, man he’d be amazing”. In my opinion, when you’re the world’s champion at anything (especially in something combat related), you are working at optimum levels. It’s hilarious to see the “big numbers” guys get all worked up over a guy like Hughes who doesn’t care about max bp. Whatever Hughes is doing, it works.
VorteX
You can pretty much say anything you want to now.
You can slip and slide all over the place, it’s a message board go for it.
But I was responding to your original comment on the previous page:
You are full of crap for stating the above.
Are we clear now?
[quote]PGJ wrote:
ZEB wrote:
VorteX wrote:
…But you can still go and “live it” with a more optimal training program. I’m just musing that he could make some even greater improvements.
The fact that YOU think he needs a more optimal training program means what exactly?
Which brings me back to my original point. How do YOU know he’s not training at his optimum?
Becuase he’s not following a T-Nation program?
Funny stuff!
Zeb,
This is starting to sound a lot like an argument we had on another thread about guys who lift weight but don’t want to get huge. Some guys think that’s stupid, like we all want to weight 270lbs and bench 500. Matt Hughes is the toughest guy on the planet and has proved it, but somebody has to chime in with criticism like “well, imagine if he really worked on his bench press and squat, man he’d be amazing”. In my opinion, when you’re the world’s champion at anything (especially in something combat related), you are working at optimum levels. It’s hilarious to see the “big numbers” guys get all worked up over a guy like Hughes who doesn’t care about max bp. Whatever Hughes is doing, it works.
[/quote]
Exactly my point.
Most people have no clue what it takes to achieve what Hughes has achieved (or any of the current champions).
He is a dominant champion in the toughest combat sport on the planet!
When you are at the top like Hughes is you are constantly bombarded with unique ideas to improve your ground game, striking, endurance, strength etc. And you are given these training soulutions from some of the best mma trainers in the world.
For any typical poster on this site to question how much better Hughes could be if he used this program or that program is bull.
Naturally, they have a right to say it. Just as I have a right to call them on it.
And I did.
Back to the orginal topic, I’d wager that the strongest pound for pound, maybe in overall PL total as well, would be Kevin Randleman. He’s trained for his fights with Louie Simmons at WSB. He’s squatted a legit 600 pounds and often does Javorek complexes with 205 pounds. He’s a freaking monster. Just watch him chuck 240 pounds of Fedor like a rag doll.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
VorteX
You can pretty much say anything you want to now.
You can slip and slide all over the place, it’s a message board go for it.
But I was responding to your original comment on the previous page:
…it makes me wonder how much he would improve if he used a more specific program like CWs.
You are full of crap for stating the above.
Are we clear now?
[/quote]
No.
Why do you keep attacking that when I have explained my stance further since then?
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Exactly my point.
Most people have no clue what it takes to achieve what Hughes has achieved (or any of the current champions).
He is a dominant champion in the toughest combat sport on the planet!
When you are at the top like Hughes is you are constantly bombarded with unique ideas to improve your ground game, striking, endurance, strength etc. And you are given these training soulutions from some of the best mma trainers in the world.
For any typical poster on this site to question how much better Hughes could be if he used this program or that program is bull.
Naturally, they have a right to say it. Just as I have a right to call them on it.
And I did.
[/quote]
I wonder how much training time he’d have to devote to lifting big to impress the numbers guys, thereby probably reducing his ability and time to actually train in his sport. It’s not like he has seasons like football players. He’s year round. Hughes might not have a huge bp or squat, but I bet his practical strength is amazing. I remember watching Royce back in UFC 1, 2 and 3 absolutely destroying huge muscular guys twice his size and strength.
We are probably off track from the original question. My guess is that the UFC guys aren’t any stronger than anyone else their size. Some of them are massive, some are very un-muscular (is that a word?).
[quote]VorteX wrote:
ZEB wrote:
VorteX
You can pretty much say anything you want to now.
You can slip and slide all over the place, it’s a message board go for it.
But I was responding to your original comment on the previous page:
…it makes me wonder how much he would improve if he used a more specific program like CWs.
You are full of crap for stating the above.
Are we clear now?
No.
Why do you keep attacking that when I have explained my stance further since then?[/quote]
Because you keep trying to defend your original silly statements on the topic.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
VorteX wrote:
…But you can still go and “live it” with a more optimal training program. I’m just musing that he could make some even greater improvements.
The fact that YOU think he needs a more optimal training program means what exactly?
Which brings me back to my original point. How do YOU know he’s not training at his optimum?
Becuase he’s not following a T-Nation program?
Funny stuff!
[/quote]
He’s doing a body part split, which might be optimal for bodybuilding. Vortex suggested CW’s MMA routine. Maybe our opinions don’t matter in your eyes because we’re not top level trainers or MMA fighters, but do you honestly believe a body part split is optimal for fighting?
Also, this thread purtains to the lifting aspect of fighters training. So asking if a top level fighter could improve, in the context of this thread, is perfectly fine.
Vortex was spot on with his assumtion as well; the force of ballistic movements with zero resistance (striking) has almost zero correlation to maximal strength, and is determined by the starting strength of the muscles and the absolute speed of muscular contration. Body-part splits are almost exclusively used for hypertrophy, and are therefore not optimal.
Let’s all consider this for a second.
Do you guys think that top level MMA fighters want their REAL training program published?
I think not, which is why I call bullshit on Hughes’ training page.
Regardless of whether body part splits are optimal for anyone, if you make your living by getting beat up, you’re not going to allow everyone to see how you train.
[quote]carter12 wrote:
Let’s all consider this for a second.
Do you guys think that top level MMA fighters want their REAL training program published?
I think not, which is why I call bullshit on Hughes’ training page.
Regardless of whether body part splits are optimal for anyone, if you make your living by getting beat up, you’re not going to allow everyone to see how you train. [/quote]
The fact that you would say this just illustrates the fact that you don’t understand what it takes to get to Matt’s level.
I’m sure he would be perfectly happy to have his exact program freely available. What is someone gonna do? Are they going to start Matt’s exact program and then WHAM a few months later they will be at his level?
I know Andy Bolton’s and Ed Coans exact program, can I deadlift 900lbs? Will I ever deadlift 900lbs? Hell God damn no.
What makes Matt a champ is his dedication, commitment, willpower, and natural ability. What program he follows is so far down the list it’s barely worth thinking about. As long as it’s half way sensible, which obviously it is.
[quote]Whopper wrote:
What makes Matt a champ is his dedication, commitment, willpower, and natural ability. What program he follows is so far down the list it’s barely worth thinking about. As long as it’s half way sensible, which obviously it is.
[/quote]
Interesting concept.
So, If conditioning is such a minor factor, why is so much emphasis placed on it?
Are these pros placing inapropriate emphasis on conditioning?
[quote]Donut62 wrote:
Back to the orginal topic, I’d wager that the strongest pound for pound, maybe in overall PL total as well, would be Kevin Randleman. He’s trained for his fights with Louie Simmons at WSB. He’s squatted a legit 600 pounds and often does Javorek complexes with 205 pounds. He’s a freaking monster. Just watch him chuck 240 pounds of Fedor like a rag doll.[/quote]
Good post. He is definately one of the strongest. I’ve also heard that Fujita is an animal in the weightroom as well, and after watching Mark Kerr’s The Smashing Machine Documentary, I’d go out on a limb to say that he was probably amidst the strongest of all MMA competitors while he was competing.