This is a log for two extraordinary T-Nation users, who have achieved such a high level of strength, with minimal training, that they have earned the right to tell Dan John he is full of shit.
For those of you who do not follow the article Live spills (and let’s be frank here, who does?) genetically gifted T-Nation users “alternate” and “hastalles” basically told Dan John he didn’t know what the hell he was talking about, despite the fact John has been training for longer than the two of them have been alive.
The genesis of these extraordinary claims was Dan’s article:
where he provided the following strength guides, for determining where your shortcomings may lie:
This is for men.
Apparently, these pissant standards are too low to even warrant consideration for these two illustrious T-Nation members and future Olympians, as noted by their comments in the Livespill:
[quote]
alternate wrote:
good article, but I think most moderately genetically gifted men would be able to do each exercise you mentioned to the ‘Game Changing’ degree without any previous training at all!! [/quote]
[quote]
hastalle wrote:
I kinda have to agree with alternate actually. [/quote]
I checked out hastalle’s training log, and it looks like he is about 165 or so and has a deadlift of approximately 330, so I guess he technically gets credit for that portion of the challenge. Although he has been training for over 2 years now, so I’m not sure he really meets the “no previous training at all” criteria, but I’ll let him address this apparent contradiction. I’m just assuming his deadlift has increased linearally with his weight.
So hey guys, this is your time to shine. Feel free to post your videos and let us see the goods!
“One mustn’t criticize other people on grounds where he can’t stand perpendicular himself.” - Mark Twain.
Those two must be smoking dope. There’s zero chance that “most moderately genetically gifted men” can reach even two or three of those benchmarks without prior training.
I’ve seen posts where guys weren’t impressed with 600lb deadlifts and were claiming 500lb raw benches. If I had a 500lb raw bench and 600+ deadlift I’d be doing some raw powerlifting competitions at least at the local level.
I especially want to see the genetically average guy that does a farmer’s walk with bodyweight in each hand without any prior training (or at least having grown up on a farm).
There are some freaks out there though. I remember this one guy when I was in the army. I cant say he had never trained beforehand, but I never saw him in the gym or anything. During the initial physical testing he did 34 pullups and also ran the 3k in 9 minutes. He was really light, 65 kg or something, but ripped to shreds, with veins sticking out everywhere. I always thought to myself “what if this guy started training seriously?”.
Bottom line is there are some genetic freaks out there. They are however extremely rare.
When I started training I couldnt even bench half my bodyweight, let alone do a pullup lol.
[quote]whatever2k wrote:
There are some freaks out there though. I remember this one guy when I was in the army. I cant say he had never trained beforehand, but I never saw him in the gym or anything. During the initial physical testing he did 34 pullups and also ran the 3k in 9 minutes. He was really light, 65 kg or something, but ripped to shreds, with veins sticking out everywhere. I always thought to myself “what if this guy started training seriously?”.
Bottom line is there are some genetic freaks out there. They are however extremely rare.
When I started training I couldnt even bench half my bodyweight, let alone do a pullup lol.
[/quote]
That’s the point,they are claiming this is average Joe, not some Superman.
As an aside, Andy Bolton says the first time he squatted he used 500lbs and first time deadlift was 600lbs! (so not double BW trolol).
[quote]whatever2k wrote:
Bottom line is there are some genetic freaks out there. They are however extremely rare.[/quote]
That’s why I said these kids are missing the bigger picture of those “game changers.” As was written in the article:
"The toughest issue for me to wrap my mind around is still that you need to be strong enough. Certainly, I guess you could add flexible enough, mobile enough, and enough of enough is enough, but you need to get to certain standards and then do your best to stay there.
… If you have game changing numbers across all five movements, well, let’s just say the weight room isn’t your problem unless you’re in a pure strength sport like powerlifting or Olympic lifting or strongman competition.
…
Now, I know these numbers are low, but it’s the balance across the five that seems most important for athletes.
Moreover, achieving all five levels tends to support this notion of knitting. If you have the appropriate levels of strength for your goals, look beyond the weight room for the reasons you’re not achieving them. If your goal is fat loss, look at the plates on the table, not the plates in the gym."
I was pretty excited to read this and see that I met all the game changer criteria listed here. I’ve actually logged all these challenges over the past few months besides the farmers walk, although I did something similar with a barbell deadlift/hold for time recently.
I’ve also lifted for nearly 10 years on and off. That’s far from untrained, and my accomplishments barely exceed these game changing benchmarks. I would even consider myself to be moderately genetically gifted in strength to weight tests, because I’ve always naturally been lean. To say there are a bunch of untrained guys who can do this stuff is fucking ridiculous.
Alternate is one of the worst posters on this site right now. I’d let Hastalles slide a bit, because he doesn’t make extraordinary claims about himself or start a bunch of dumb threads.
As a side note, Dan John explains these game-changer numbers as being game-changers as it relates to competitive traditional sports, not necessarily powerlifting. I don’t think that should be overlooked.
[quote]whatever2k wrote:
There are some freaks out there though. I remember this one guy when I was in the army. I cant say he had never trained beforehand, but I never saw him in the gym or anything. During the initial physical testing he did 34 pullups and also ran the 3k in 9 minutes. He was really light, 65 kg or something, but ripped to shreds, with veins sticking out everywhere. I always thought to myself “what if this guy started training seriously?”.
Bottom line is there are some genetic freaks out there. They are however extremely rare.
When I started training I couldnt even bench half my bodyweight, let alone do a pullup lol.
[/quote]
That’s the point,they are claiming this is average Joe, not some Superman.
As an aside, Andy Bolton says the first time he squatted he used 500lbs and first time deadlift was 600lbs! (so not double BW trolol).[/quote]
Yeah true.
That is insane about Andy Bolton. Some people will train a lifetime and never reach those numbers he started out with.
the impression I got from those numbers is that they had nothing to do with what you should be able to do after a certain amount of time spent lifting.
From my understanding, those were the numbers he has seen where most athletes start to shine and see the most improvement in their games (whatever game that may be) due to their time in the weight room.
So if you’re a basketball player, for example, you’d see the most improvement from the numbers he posted and once you get to that point, if you want to get better at basketball, you should focus on things other than the weight room because that isn’t the problem. Or in other words, once you are able to achieve the numbers he posted, then you don’t need to worry about getting stronger and keep toiling in the weightroom because beyond that point, it won’t be the most fruitful use of your time if you want to get better at your sport.
Does this make any sense?
I’m sure that some genetically gifted people at the right body weights could do these numbers without too much effort in the gym (if they’re hardcore in certain sports, like gymnastics for example, then they may not even need to be that genetically gifted to pull it off), but the point these 2 were making is irrelevant to what Dan John’s article was about.
[quote]
alternate wrote:
good article, but I think most moderately genetically gifted men would be able to do each exercise you mentioned to the ‘Game Changing’ degree without any previous training at all!!
hastalle wrote:
I kinda have to agree with alternate actually. [/quote]
I don’t think these comments are arrogant enough to warrant a call out thread (if at all).
Were there other comments? Because, if not then there’s really nothing ‘out of line’ being said here.
I will just assume that these two haven’t posted in here yet because they are putting together an “I told ya so” video, compiling footage of not only themselves doing this, but also the many many many others that are capable of doing it with no training…probably pulled from a collection of guys they have trained themselves, since they know so much more about it than Dan John.
[quote]
alternate wrote:
good article, but I think most moderately genetically gifted men would be able to do each exercise you mentioned to the ‘Game Changing’ degree without any previous training at all!!
hastalle wrote:
I kinda have to agree with alternate actually. [/quote]
I don’t think these comments are arrogant enough to warrant a call out thread (if at all).
Were there other comments? Because, if not then there’s really nothing ‘out of line’ being said here. [/quote]
Umm this isn’t a call out thread. Did you not read the title or introduction? We have to PHENOMS here and I am just giving them the stage that they deserve to step into the spotlight…
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
I don’t think these comments are arrogant enough to warrant a call out thread (if at all).
[/quote]
It’s dismissing the opinion of someone with decades of training and competing experience; along with professional experience coaching hundreds of athletes.
The guy making this comment is a rank beginner with no knowledge to speak of (based on comments like my jeans no longer fit due to BW pistol squats).
I don’t think these comments are arrogant enough to warrant a call out thread (if at all).
Were there other comments? Because, if not then there’s really nothing ‘out of line’ being said here. [/quote]
I don’t think VT is calling them out so much as just asking them to back up what they said. Alternate stated that a moderately genetically gifted man could reach all the “game changing” standards with no prior training. VT and others have challenged the validity of this claim and assume that if untrained individuals could meet these standards then alternate and hastalle, who we assume train, can easily meet them.
It’s not so much a call out as backing up the claims they made.
