Doing Pullups

Training
41

So I tried doing chin-ups with dead-hang.

Beyond the fact that it’s awfully difficult to do dead-hangs when you’re doing chin-ups with those door-frame chin-up bars (not enough room for my legs to go), I also noticed that my shoulder/muscle surrounding it got awfully tired after just six reps. Could have 2-3 more, but I decided that potentially making my shoulders angry is not in my best interest and stopped.

It’s obvious that the shoulders muscles that I never actually worked by not doing dead-hang chins are considerably weaker than the muscles I’ve worked with my normal ROM chins, so I’ll do both. Two days of full ROM chin, one day of weighted chin with my normal ROM chins. I don’t want to let my back, core, fore-arms possibly get weaker while my shoulders catch up. Once my dead-hang gets to about 10 reps I’ll stop doing my old ROM ones.

But, ya, slow and steady and I probably won’t fuck up my shoulders like I feared.

Thanks for putting me on the right path.

Edit-
Just finished 10 sets of 3 reps.

I am very surprised at how tired my forearms are. I think the effort required to actually pull myself out of a dead-hang requires a whole lot from my forearms than I imagined. I think this is a great way to improve my grip strength for dead-lifts.

42

Strength perhaps, but you lost me at conditioning.

I think we can often get the best of both worlds by practicing both techniques. Weighted Pull Ups at a dead hang, then a different grip for as many reps as possible utilizing the stretch reflex (not kipping though).

43

I use lat pulldown because at the gym i go to i can use 2 D handles that move freely(like rings) and it is much more joints friendly when we do them 6-7 times weekly.
I also squat all the way down with a short pause to avoid the EZ spring back up factor.
And i use the 7.5 reps in my log meaning the last was not proper form.
Here it seems sometimes like second grade, my father is stronger than your father, well my brother is taller than your brother.

44

whats amazing are the crossfit guys… even tho they do a ton of kipping pullups, their dead hang numbers are incrediably high too… a friend of mine started doing those crossfit style workouts about 5 years ago and he can do a lot of everything. dips pullups pushups…average before, very good now… i think he said for a warm up 6 days a week, they do maybe 30 pullups and 30 dips… 3 on 1 off. so if you do something often you get better at it. common sense… espically bodyweight movements… look at gymnasts…so, 32 is what i do, and thats nothing compared to good xfit guys who train 6 days a week doing 180 pullups for a warmup… i do maybe 100 pullups a week.

45

on another note re: pullups, why is it that most guys on a bodybuilding program get say from 8 to 12 pullups in 6 months time, but the xfit guys go from 8 15-25 in the same time? is it the volume, of doing pullups for a warm up 6 days a week? and if the bodybuilder does cable rows and deads and t bar rows, all those are supose to help you with the pullup. why then to the xfit guys excel at pullups over the bodybuilder? i know a few very good bodybuilders that do sets of 20-30 in pullups, but thats a few top guys . the average bb guy does 8-12. the average x fit guy does way more than that…my friend in the above post was doing bb type workouts for years. 8-15 on pullups. now doing x fit hes at 30…just curious.

bb guys look better, but arnt as strong as xfit giys… IN SOME MOVEMENTS…maybe its the volume of pullups they do. a seasoned xfit guy does 180 in a week warming up, then at least 1-2 weekly workouts require pullups… so i guess its the volume making them very good at pullups…

46

[quote]DAVE101 wrote:
Strict form is a loose term that can never have a global definition, and it’s definitely not neccessary to maximize benefits.[/quote]

Yup. And you can’t take things out of context. If one is arguing that pullups (or any movement, for that matter) should be done slowly for “perfect” form, does that mean that speed reps are imperfect and inferior? Maybe people should always make sure to hang for a full 4 seconds at the bottom to dissipate elastic energy.

And we’re all put together differently, so what is full ROM to one is not full ROM to another.

“Ideal” form prescriptions are often arbitrary, and it can get to the point where people over-analyze every little bit of a person’s performance. We’re talking exercise here, not quantum physics. It’s really annoying how when somebody performs an impressive feat that people start harping on minor aspects. Yes, there are a lot claims people make that would be impressive if true, yet they turn out to be using a 2" ROM or something. And yes there is a certain range of what would be good vs. poor form. But a lot of times people look at an impressive performance and criticize it unjustifiably.

47

[quote]spk wrote:
on another note re: pullups, why is it that most guys on a bodybuilding program get say from 8 to 12 pullups in 6 months time, but the xfit guys go from 8 15-25 in the same time? is it the volume, of doing pullups for a warm up 6 days a week? and if the bodybuilder does cable rows and deads and t bar rows, all those are supose to help you with the pullup. why then to the xfit guys excel at pullups over the bodybuilder? i know a few very good bodybuilders that do sets of 20-30 in pullups, but thats a few top guys . the average bb guy does 8-12. the average x fit guy does way more than that…my friend in the above post was doing bb type workouts for years. 8-15 on pullups. now doing x fit hes at 30…just curious.

bb guys look better, but arnt as strong as xfit giys… IN SOME MOVEMENTS…maybe its the volume of pullups they do. a seasoned xfit guy does 180 in a week warming up, then at least 1-2 weekly workouts require pullups… so i guess its the volume making them very good at pullups…[/quote]

I would guess that volume is part of the reason for the higher capacity.
Maybe an other part is many BB are dreamers who buy into the must bulk syndrome/get big fast and they have to lift more fat.

48

Well, people criticize form because Sentoguy hit it in the head when he said the point of exercise is to get stronger. For all intents and purposes, full ROM gets you stronger in overall application than does a partial ROM. If partial ROM and specialized work fits your needs, then go for it. But if you’re out purely to get stronger, then why not do full ROM?

If you’re a power-lifter, then you need to hit competition requirements. If you’re a bodybuilder, then getting proper form helps to build up all the respective musculature, and so you should be doing proper form. Again though, if a certain method of doing something fits your needs, then obviously you’ll be doing that.

Besides, it is rather annoying to watch people claim they squat 260, then watch them literally do a small dance while they’re under the bar. I’m not joking. I went to the gym on Saturday and there was a group of kids squatting. One of them squatted with 260 on the bar, and it looked like he was shrugging the weight while adding a bit of knee bend to it. Basically, there was no actual squatting going on. His friends congratulated him for doing 260 squats. I do congratulate the kid for being able to stand with 260lb on his back though. 245 felt fairly heavy when I was doing that for singles.

Later, they tried teaching one of their friends how to squat. They had him immediately squat 95, and the kid looked like he was literally going to collapse under the weight; he really should have been squatting the bar. And they kept telling him that he had good form when he was probably an inch off 3/4 of the way down to parallel.

I’m just worried that they’re going to hurt themselves more than anything. At least, in regards to children. Adults who claim they squat 250 and then do the above dance annoy me. Those kids that were “squatting” 200+ later tried to deadlift. Not only were they dropping (actually dropping) 200lb at the top or coming down so quickly that it’s obvious they just released all tension, they also had such a horrendous curve on their lower back that I’m fairly certain they’re going to have an injury with a month or two if they keep that up. And they were egging the guy who did 260 to do more than the 220 he got up, because he squats 265 and should be able to handle that baby weight.

Form may not particularly matter on push-ups and pull/chin-ups cause it’s difficult to hurt yourself on those, but doing improper form on weighted barbell exercises can get deadly. People who are informed should be doing good form work so that others who are not informed also do good form work. People, especially kids, tend to copy whatever they see other people do in the gym.

49

[quote]anthropocentric wrote:

Strength perhaps, but you lost me at conditioning.

I think we can often get the best of both worlds by practicing both techniques. Weighted Pull Ups at a dead hang, then a different grip for as many reps as possible utilizing the stretch reflex (not kipping though). [/quote]

When I say “conditioning” what I mean is muscular endurance. I’m not saying that there is never a time or place for letting form slide a little for the purposes of cardiovascular conditioning.

50

[quote]spk wrote:
whats amazing are the crossfit guys… even tho they do a ton of kipping pullups, their dead hang numbers are incrediably high too… a friend of mine started doing those crossfit style workouts about 5 years ago and he can do a lot of everything. dips pullups pushups…average before, very good now… i think he said for a warm up 6 days a week, they do maybe 30 pullups and 30 dips… 3 on 1 off. so if you do something often you get better at it. common sense… espically bodyweight movements… look at gymnasts…so, 32 is what i do, and thats nothing compared to good xfit guys who train 6 days a week doing 180 pullups for a warmup… i do maybe 100 pullups a week. [/quote]

Man, I know I’m gonna step on some toes by saying this, but for the most part xfit guys’ form sucks on pretty much all body weight exercises. But I agree that doing something often (provided you give yourself enough time to recover) will generally make you better at it quickly.

51

[quote]spk wrote:
on another note re: pullups, why is it that most guys on a bodybuilding program get say from 8 to 12 pullups in 6 months time, but the xfit guys go from 8 15-25 in the same time? is it the volume, of doing pullups for a warm up 6 days a week? and if the bodybuilder does cable rows and deads and t bar rows, all those are supose to help you with the pullup. why then to the xfit guys excel at pullups over the bodybuilder? i know a few very good bodybuilders that do sets of 20-30 in pullups, but thats a few top guys . the average bb guy does 8-12. the average x fit guy does way more than that…my friend in the above post was doing bb type workouts for years. 8-15 on pullups. now doing x fit hes at 30…just curious.

bb guys look better, but arnt as strong as xfit giys… IN SOME MOVEMENTS…maybe its the volume of pullups they do. a seasoned xfit guy does 180 in a week warming up, then at least 1-2 weekly workouts require pullups… so i guess its the volume making them very good at pullups…[/quote]

Well keep in mind that most bodybuilders are gaining considerable amounts of mass within the first 6 months (provided they are eating right). So, what might not look like much progress may in fact be quite substantial progress. Crossfiters on the other hand tend to lose weight once they start doing it seriously (which is going to make body weight exercises like pull-ups easier). So what may look like a substantial difference in progress is in actuality probably pretty close.

Also, like you said, crossfit tends to spend a lot more time performing pull-ups than your typical bb’ing split.

52

[quote]Dark_Knight wrote:

[quote]DAVE101 wrote:
Strict form is a loose term that can never have a global definition, and it’s definitely not neccessary to maximize benefits.[/quote]

Yup. And you can’t take things out of context. If one is arguing that pullups (or any movement, for that matter) should be done slowly for “perfect” form, does that mean that speed reps are imperfect and inferior? Maybe people should always make sure to hang for a full 4 seconds at the bottom to dissipate elastic energy.
[/quote]

Yes, speed reps would be imperfect. That doesn’t make them useless or inferior in all contexts/for certain purposes.

No, not really. Yes, some people have longer or shorter limbs, longer or shorter torsos, and thicker or thinner body parts, but that doesn’t change what constitutes full ROM.

To a degree I agree, it is somewhat arbitrary. But anyone arguing agsinst the notion that using a full ROM and no momentum/body englisg during pull-ups is going to be “perfect” (not the same thing as good vs bad) form is just arguing with their ego. Just as someone making the same argument in regards to bench pressing or squatting would be guilty of the same thing.

53

i dont like to give numbers on pullups because everybody has a different standard of good form. just do what you do and dont tell anybody.

54

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Dark_Knight wrote:
Yup. And you can’t take things out of context. If one is arguing that pullups (or any movement, for that matter) should be done slowly for “perfect” form, does that mean that speed reps are imperfect and inferior? Maybe people should always make sure to hang for a full 4 seconds at the bottom to dissipate elastic energy.
[/quote]

Yes, speed reps would be imperfect.[/quote]

According to your standard.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Dark_Knight wrote:
And we’re all put together differently, so what is full ROM to one is not full ROM to another.
[/quote]

No, not really. Yes, some people have longer or shorter limbs, longer or shorter torsos, and thicker or thinner body parts, but that doesn’t change what constitutes full ROM.[/quote]

Yes it does. To use an example that’s in the forefront of my mind, I can’t do overhead pressing with the ROM as other guys. Even an unloaded movement I CAN’T do to the same range of motion as other guys doing overhead presses with hundreds of pounds. What is a full ROM for me is different. This may or may not ever change. That’s just one example. I’ve read of lots of other kinds of things like this, from both people experiencing it, as well as strength coaches (some on this site) noting how a full ROM can differ in people.

You’re right that people have longer or shorter limbs, etc., but these structural differences can also be internal and unseen, but nevertheless affect one’s ability to move. For example, different acromion process shapes affect one’s ability to overhead press. http://www.T-Nation.com/img/photos/2011/11-692-02/figure-2.jpg

Or another example from a quick search: “But this does not imply that you HAVE to Squat ‘ass-to-grass’. I’ve already explained that most guys don’t have the hip/ankle flexibility for this and that they’ll suffer back pain as a result.” How to Squat with Proper Form: The Definitive Guide | StrongLifts

Further, the cumulative effect of X bodypart being longer, Y bodypart being shorter, Z bodypart being thicker also affect people’s ability to move.

People are put together differently. People have different degrees of mobility, some of which is due to things that are genetically determined and cannot be changed (such as the acromion process shape). These factors affect ROM. There is not a universal full ROM that can be categorically applied to every person.

55

[quote]eremesu wrote:
everybody has a different standard of good form. [/quote]

Indeed. There is a certain reasonable range that I think most people would agree, but within that range, the arguments go overboard. I mean, I like to do pullups with a close grip (which increases the ROM), but I don’t take issue with people that do wide-grip (which has a shorter ROM), because, like I said, it’s exercise, not quantum physics. No need to over-analyze.

56

[quote]Dark_Knight wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Dark_Knight wrote:
Yup. And you can’t take things out of context. If one is arguing that pullups (or any movement, for that matter) should be done slowly for “perfect” form, does that mean that speed reps are imperfect and inferior? Maybe people should always make sure to hang for a full 4 seconds at the bottom to dissipate elastic energy.
[/quote]

Yes, speed reps would be imperfect.[/quote]

According to your standard.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Dark_Knight wrote:
And we’re all put together differently, so what is full ROM to one is not full ROM to another.
[/quote]

No, not really. Yes, some people have longer or shorter limbs, longer or shorter torsos, and thicker or thinner body parts, but that doesn’t change what constitutes full ROM.[/quote]

Yes it does. To use an example that’s in the forefront of my mind, I can’t do overhead pressing with the ROM as other guys. Even an unloaded movement I CAN’T do to the same range of motion

[/quote]

And this is why even the Olympics allow certain lifters to not visibly lock out their elbows, because their locked out elbows look slightly bent.

57

Since the people arguing for perfect dead hang pull ups have also agreed that people have different goals, then the meaning of perfect is different for different people.

And it makes you wonder, if dead hang pull ups with no stretch reflex are absolutely perfect, then how come pretty much no one does them? Top powerlifters don’t (see Kroc’s form of pull up conditioning), top bodybuilders obviously don’t and the list goes on.

Kroc’s upper back conditioning

Dead hang 2-4 second pause is cool and all, but just take a look at the empirical evidence here.

58

Ive been able to do 20+ chinups in my youth as far as beginning of teenage hood much due to my dad having a pullup bar installed between my doorway to my room.

When I joined the gym at around 18 I didnt get much progress from pulldowns/chindowns, I only started getting my rep to 33 and 2 one armchinups (at 170lbs in 2007) after doing ramping 3reps, 8 sets weighted chinups in the gym.

I do them fully stretched without kipping, but I dont stay at the bottom for 2seconds “to not bounce” because I think that’s stupid and not comparable to bounching deadlifts.

59

…and how many of you have backs (or will EVER) like Kroc?

This shit is silly to me that people are actually arguing AGAINST making an exercise difficult.

Really?

What the fuck kind of world am I living in where people bench 1/9th of the way down, squat 1/6th of the depth, curl by jerking their entire body, or do pull-ups where they aren’t even pulling themselves up.

Fuck that.

I was taught that if the exercise is too easy, then you’re doing it wrong…

No one is going to talk me into believing that easiness is the way to go.

60

big strong built guy, but IN MY OPINION, his forehead was even with the bar,his chin wasnt over it. would have failed the navy seal test or marine test. but thats his way… cool. i go way way higher, and two feet lower…looks like he keeps constant tension on his muscles by not going all the way down.