Does Technique Break Down During ME DL?

Training Powerlifting
1

I’m doing a personal training course so you can only imagine some of the fitness bullshit that’s getting banded about class.

I ended up getting into a ‘debate’ with the teacher regarding DL technique. I said that technique will likely break down during a max effort lift. He told me that I was incorrect!

I understand that the lifter will always attempt proper technique however the execution would be a different story when working at full strength!

Am I right or am I an ego driven douche who was trying to undermime the ‘coach’?

2

Yes. That will happen always to everyone to varying degrees. There is no question.

3

[quote]csulli wrote:
Yes. That will happen always to everyone to varying degrees. There is no question.[/quote]

Thought as much, dude.

Memo to self. Never accept DL advice from someone built like the side of a $10 note.

4

The entire notion that there is some sort of pre-set universal technique for a movement that every trainee will emulate or seek to emulate in their training is absurd in and of itself. No two individuals are built exactly alike, variances will occur, and what is healthy for one is dangerous for the other.

That having been said, I don’t see a point in getting in a debate with someone teaching you course material. Regardless of if you are “right”, when it comes time to get the grade, all that matters is if you repeat what you have been taught.

5

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
The entire notion that there is some sort of pre-set universal technique for a movement that every trainee will emulate or seek to emulate in their training is absurd in and of itself. No two individuals are built exactly alike, variances will occur, and what is healthy for one is dangerous for the other.

That having been said, I don’t see a point in getting in a debate with someone teaching you course material. Regardless of if you are “right”, when it comes time to get the grade, all that matters is if you repeat what you have been taught.[/quote]

Aye I agree. It was at the end of a long day and the guys teaching style is dull as dishwater, hence my boredom getting the better of me causing me to open my mouth and let my belly rumble.

Anyway cheers, mate. Always count on yourself for rock solid advice.

6

Personally, I believe that if you have trained to be strongest in the most efficient/technically sound bar path, then even the maximal lift will look ideal. For example:

Or a squat:

7

[quote]arramzy wrote:
Personally, I believe that if you have trained to be strongest in the most efficient/technically sound bar path, then even the maximal lift will look ideal. For example:

Or a squat:

[/quote]

I agree, theoretically if you get out position it should be a miss. Meaning that your training and technique has been as proficient as possible and the only way to make a maximal attempt is by it being technically sound. My opinion is if you are making maximal attempts with technical break down you are leaving weight on the platform by not training the movement efficiently enough.

Another way to look at it is that being a “good” powerlifter is more about being proficient, utilizing leverage and positioning rather than being, for lack of a better term, strong. Combining the two will provide the best oppurtunity for a big total. Lacking in one of the two areas should hinder your maximal potential on the platform.

8

ChongLordUno said “I said that technique will likely break down during a max effort lift.”

People whose form does not break down, the elite, are the “unlikely” bunch, a minority. For all the people in the world who would attempt a deadlift, it is more likely than not that they’d de-technique under a truly maximal load. So, yes, for those whose technique does not break down, there is no breakdown, but I got $5 on the betting table saying that if you pulled aside the random lifter, form would break down (microscopically to catastrophically) at maximal effort.

9

[quote]emskee wrote:
ChongLordUno said “I said that technique will likely break down during a max effort lift.”

People whose form does not break down, the elite, are the “unlikely” bunch, a minority. For all the people in the world who would attempt a deadlift, it is more likely than not that they’d de-technique under a truly maximal load. So, yes, for those whose technique does not break down, there is no breakdown, but I got $5 on the betting table saying that if you pulled aside the random lifter, form would break down (microscopically to catastrophically) at maximal effort.

[/quote]

I think the argument is that it “shouldn’t”. There is no reason any random lifter shouldn’t strive for technical proficiency.

10

I loved the vids! Especially that squat, that was awsome!

11

[quote]clutz15 wrote:

[quote]emskee wrote:
ChongLordUno said “I said that technique will likely break down during a max effort lift.”

People whose form does not break down, the elite, are the “unlikely” bunch, a minority. For all the people in the world who would attempt a deadlift, it is more likely than not that they’d de-technique under a truly maximal load. So, yes, for those whose technique does not break down, there is no breakdown, but I got $5 on the betting table saying that if you pulled aside the random lifter, form would break down (microscopically to catastrophically) at maximal effort.

[/quote]

I think the argument is that it “shouldn’t”. There is no reason any random lifter shouldn’t strive for technical proficiency.
[/quote]

Like you said, “strive”.

Totally agree that everyone should train to do their best, I’ve agreed with you many times before the fact in various postings of my own. I always say that proper form is the best assistance exercise.

I was born with a bit of scoliosis and earned a bit of anatomical rearrangement related to my military service. Try as I might, I’m still damaged goods. I can try all I want but someone will certainly be able to see some flaws in all 3 of my lifts. As such, I also get injured now and again.

I’ve known but a few lifters who were un-scarred and probably just as many who were born with a perfect anatomy.

I know a lifter who got hurt working on a bus. Another who came to powerlifting with a misshapen knee from football. Etc, etc, etc.

Then there are those who strive and make a mistake, also me. Perfect squat followed by a trip trying to rerack which results in a cartilage tear which changed my foot position in the squat and deadlift to “hey, that ain’t right.”

Guy 1 is chasing guy 2 for first place so he bumps his 3rd attempt by 35 lbs. Went too heavy but willing to do anything he can to get at least 2 whites and that cheap plastic trophy in the back row.

Even the guys in the videos, I bet they all have a lift or two they’d like to get a do over on. Example does not equal proof, so says the man.

What’s left over are all the guys who don’t have a clue, are sloppy, the powerlifting great unwashed who make you cringe every time they lift.

So yeah, I agree with you 100%, but I offer again that if you go out and grab the random PLer and have them pull a max attempt, there will be some level of form breakdown for any number of reasons, even for those who strive to do their cleanest lifting and this is all ChongLordUno was saying prior to the change in the topic of this thread.

But, you are right that all should try but some are dead at the door, some stumble and others just don’t get it.

12

Striving for perfect form is the best way to lift the most weight. If you are truly maxing out though your form will necessarily not be perfect. Ask Mike T, one of the guys in the video, ask Eric Lilliebridge, one of the guys in the video, ask Brian Shaw, 985lb deadlifter, ask Benni Magnusson, world record holder at 1015. Regardless of whether or not you can see a difference in their max attempts, ask them if form will break down on a max dead and see what they say. (They say yes).

13

[quote]csulli wrote:
Striving for perfect form is the best way to lift the most weight. If you are truly maxing out though your form will necessarily not be perfect. Ask Mike T, one of the guys in the video, ask Eric Lilliebridge, one of the guys in the video, ask Brian Shaw, 985lb deadlifter, ask Benni Magnusson, world record holder at 1015. Regardless of whether or not you can see a difference in their max attempts, ask them if form will break down on a max dead and see what they say. (They say yes).[/quote]

Amen.

(Why can’t I write short posts…)

14

[quote]clutz15 wrote:
I agree, theoretically if you get out position it should be a miss. Meaning that your training and technique has been as proficient as possible and the only way to make a maximal attempt is by it being technically sound. My opinion is if you are making maximal attempts with technical break down you are leaving weight on the platform by not training the movement efficiently enough.
[/quote]

While I agree with yours and Arramzy’s general sentiment, it is a bit vague. I think if you work in “strength potential” in that line of reasoning then we are all good. After all most beginners and intermediate lifters can “muscle up” more weight with shitty form than good form now when properly amped up. Now clearly the shitty form offers LESS strength POTENTIAL in the long run than the pretty “optimal” form.

15

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]clutz15 wrote:
I agree, theoretically if you get out position it should be a miss. Meaning that your training and technique has been as proficient as possible and the only way to make a maximal attempt is by it being technically sound. My opinion is if you are making maximal attempts with technical break down you are leaving weight on the platform by not training the movement efficiently enough.
[/quote]

While I agree with yours and Arramzy’s general sentiment, it is a bit vague. I think if you work in “strength potential” in that line of reasoning then we are all good. After all most beginners and intermediate lifters can “muscle up” more weight with shitty form than good form now when properly amped up. Now clearly the shitty form offers LESS strength POTENTIAL in the long run than the pretty “optimal” form.[/quote]

That is an important point to consider! If I take a random kid off the street and get him to pick up a bar however he wants and as heavy as possible, he can ‘muscle up’ much more than if I restrict him to a really ‘ideal’ deadlift motor pattern and bar path (assuming he can even get into position and has the coordination to manage to do so). That being said, I believe that the key to taking a new lifter and giving them any chance at becoming elite, you need to start enforcing the proper technique immediately such that by the time he surpasses his first time ‘muscle up’ maximum, it is with ideal form and in fact he couldn’t manage to lift it any other way. I mean obviously there are miniscule deviations (Certainly every rep isn’t entirely identical when you watch a great lifter like Tuscherer etc…) but in fact, the time when he should be setting his PRs should be when he has a rep or session or block when he is performing the lifts ideally (again, this is very true when you follow someone like Tuscherer). This is basically reiterating your point above that if you make PRs with less than ideal form, then you are performing less than ideally. This may be a pipe dream for the vast majority of gym bros, but I believe that it is the only way to really become elite (and I don’t mean the lame qualifications listed by various federations, I mean like IPF World Games quality lifting).

16

[quote]arramzy wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]clutz15 wrote:
I agree, theoretically if you get out position it should be a miss. Meaning that your training and technique has been as proficient as possible and the only way to make a maximal attempt is by it being technically sound. My opinion is if you are making maximal attempts with technical break down you are leaving weight on the platform by not training the movement efficiently enough.
[/quote]

While I agree with yours and Arramzy’s general sentiment, it is a bit vague. I think if you work in “strength potential” in that line of reasoning then we are all good. After all most beginners and intermediate lifters can “muscle up” more weight with shitty form than good form now when properly amped up. Now clearly the shitty form offers LESS strength POTENTIAL in the long run than the pretty “optimal” form.[/quote]

(and I don’t mean the lame qualifications listed by various federations, I mean like IPF World Games quality lifting).[/quote]

LOL too true