Doing Pullups

[magick]

Is a dead-hang actual proper form?

I was under the impression that the dead-hang is both inefficient, because you’re releasing all tension from the shoulder, and also not exactly healthy in the long run. Apparently the actual act of going from the dead-hang to the tension required to pull yourself back up stresses the shoulder in a bad way.

I just go down till my elbow forms something like a 45 degree angle in relation to my shoulder or a bit lower than that, then begin pulling up till the bar touches my pecs. I intentionally tense my ab/lower body so that I cannot even start to use the kipping motion.

[spk]

you clowns are unreal. some of you cant do pullups so the ones that can have to send in a video so you can give it the thumbs up or thumbs down… lol!! the guy doing 40 in the video did great…i’m a pro bicycle racer, so i guess i better send in a copy of my license, a photo of me signing on before a race and pictures and videos of me racing… lol!!! go train hard and stop the whining and nit picking, then maybe you’ll be a pro at some sport and will be able to do pullups…i aint wortn a shit at benching. i incline with 10 pounds below body weight,3 sets of 12… so i better ask to see if everyone that is a good bencher has proper form and fully extends and shows videos…lol!!!go train!!

[DAVE101]

There’s obviously disagreement in what is considered strict. I like the Marine Corps’ definition:

The intent is to execute a vertical dead hang pull-up. A certain amount of inherent body movement will occur as the pull-up is executed. However, the intent is to avoid a pendulum-like motion that enhances the ability to execute the pull-up. Whipping, kicking or kipping of the body or legs, or any leg movement used to assist in the vertical progression of the pull-up is not authorized.

Should using the stretch reflex out of the bottom not count?

[Sentoguy]

[quote]get_ate wrote:
I’m with those that say doing X pull-ups with perfect form is extraordinarily rare, and those claiming to do X are sadly mistaken.

Case in point: in that video posted with dude banging out 40, I have issues with his definition of a pull-up. He is not executing each rep from a dead-hang and movement in his lower body, albeit minimal, is driving his upper body towards completion of the lift.

When I do bodyweight pull-ups, I’m a tad bit more extreme. I start from a dead-hang, raise myself so my chin is above the bar, and hold myself there for 2-3 seconds before lowering myself back into the dead-hang position in preparation for my ensuing rep. When I throw on the plates, I hold for 1-2 seconds though. None of that speed demon shit where you’re using momentum as your friend.[/quote]

I agree with your issue, but my primary one would be that he his extending his neck/lifting his chin in the air, thus further shortening the ROM needed to get it over the bar. The term “chin-up” is a misnomer as the exercise should really be considered “completed” when the bar is at collarbone/upper chest height with the chin remaining in a “neutral” spinal position. This would be akin to excessive arching in bench pressing to shorten the range of motion of the exercise. Yes, it allows for greater weight to be used/more reps to be completed, but in terms of strictness/form it’s still “cheating” IMO.

[Sentoguy]

[quote]DAVE101 wrote:
There’s obviously disagreement in what is considered strict. I like the Marine Corps’ definition:

The intent is to execute a vertical dead hang pull-up. A certain amount of inherent body movement will occur as the pull-up is executed. However, the intent is to avoid a pendulum-like motion that enhances the ability to execute the pull-up. Whipping, kicking or kipping of the body or legs, or any leg movement used to assist in the vertical progression of the pull-up is not authorized.

Given your own definition of a dead hang, would you count these?

- YouTube

Should using the stretch reflex out of the bottom not count?[/quote]

I would not. Those would be like bouncing the bar on the ground while performing deadlifts, or the bar off the chest while benching. Are they “technically” full ROM? Yeah, but one is essentially using the elastic properties in the muscles/joints/thoracic cavity to “bounce” their way through the initial range of motion, thus making the exercise easier.

[Sentoguy]

[quote]magick wrote:
Is a dead-hang actual proper form?

I was under the impression that the dead-hang is both inefficient, because you’re releasing all tension from the shoulder, and also not exactly healthy in the long run. Apparently the actual act of going from the dead-hang to the tension required to pull yourself back up stresses the shoulder in a bad way.

I just go down till my elbow forms something like a 45 degree angle in relation to my shoulder or a bit lower than that, then begin pulling up till the bar touches my pecs. I intentionally tense my ab/lower body so that I cannot even start to use the kipping motion.[/quote]

Dead hang is correct, and no, as long as there is sufficient strength in the shoulder musculature/connective tissues, there is no danger in going to a deadhang each time. And yes, that inefficiency is exactly why performing dead hang pull-ups are a degree of magnitude harder than doing abbreviated ROM pull-ups like you perform. If you are making the exercise easier/more efficient, then chances are you are cheating. In some sports this is the name of the game as their only goal is to lift a certain amount of weight from point A to point B, or to perform as many “repetitions” as possible. But if we’re going to call a spade a spade, they are still cheating (within the approved rules of their sport) to make the exercise easier.

Gymnastics conditioning workout: Ring False Grip Pull Ups

These are strict pull-ups. Yes, I realize that he is using rings rather than a bar, and no, one does not have to maintain an “L hang” position for pull-ups to be strict. But notice that he goes to a full dead hang pause on every rep, pulls himself up until his hands are level with his collarbone/upper chest, keeps his head neutral, and uses absolutely no swinging of his lower body (obviously, since he’s performing L pull-ups) or arching of his back to help him develop momemtum.

If someone can perform 32 pull-ups in this fashion (minus the L hang), then they are seriously strong a pull-ups and I’d love to see a video because I appreciate watching truly impressive feats of strength.

[Sentoguy]

[quote]spk wrote:
you clowns are unreal. some of you cant do pullups so the ones that can have to send in a video so you can give it the thumbs up or thumbs down… lol!! the guy doing 40 in the video did great…i’m a pro bicycle racer, so i guess i better send in a copy of my license, a photo of me signing on before a race and pictures and videos of me racing… lol!!! go train hard and stop the whining and nit picking, then maybe you’ll be a pro at some sport and will be able to do pullups…i aint wortn a shit at benching. i incline with 10 pounds below body weight,3 sets of 12… so i better ask to see if everyone that is a good bencher has proper form and fully extends and shows videos…lol!!!go train!![/quote]

Actually that wouldn’t be an unusual request at all. Everyone supposedly benches huge weights on exercise forums like these (or in commercial gyms), or squats big weights, or can perform hundreds of push-ups, or tons of pull-ups, when in reality in most cases their form “sucks” for lack of a better term.

They don’t come anywhere near touching and pausing on their chest while benching (oh, “cause it’s bad for the shoulders”…riiiiight), performs quarter squats (“cause squatting below 90 degrees is bad for the knees”), uses little bouncing movements either at the top or bottom end of a push-up and calls them reps, or goes from a 45-90 degree flexed arm hang to thrusting their chin over a pull-up bar and calls them pull-ups.

Whether you want to admit it or not, there are actual form guidelines for exercises. Yes, some are more strict than others. But since this forum is about conditioning and using exercises to improve conditioning, why wouldn’t you want to do the exercise in the way that is going to provide the greatest benefits possible?

If one set of guidelines says that while performing push-ups I only have to come down till my upper arms are parallel with the floor and can flare out while doing so, and I only have to come up until they are at 160 degrees, while another guideline says that I must touch my chest to the ground (in a controlled manner), my elbows have to stay tucked, and I must come up until my arms are locked straight; guess which version is going to ultimately pay better dividends in terms of my strength and conditioning? If that means that your numbers drop off at first, and you just can’t handle that idea, then maybe it’s not your physical conditioning that needs primary attention.

[DAVE101]

Some of these rules seem rather arbitrary, like pausing at the bottom. Bouncing the bar off the chest for Bench? Who decides if that’s OK? It’s arbitrary and it depends on where you lift. By that logic, shouldn’t you also pause at the bottom of the push up half way between each rep? I’ve never seen any rule that suggests that, so why do it for pull ups?

This is all just food for thought. It seems like anyone can have their own definition, and there will always be variance.

[whatever2k]

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]spk wrote:
you clowns are unreal. some of you cant do pullups so the ones that can have to send in a video so you can give it the thumbs up or thumbs down… lol!! the guy doing 40 in the video did great…i’m a pro bicycle racer, so i guess i better send in a copy of my license, a photo of me signing on before a race and pictures and videos of me racing… lol!!! go train hard and stop the whining and nit picking, then maybe you’ll be a pro at some sport and will be able to do pullups…i aint wortn a shit at benching. i incline with 10 pounds below body weight,3 sets of 12… so i better ask to see if everyone that is a good bencher has proper form and fully extends and shows videos…lol!!!go train!![/quote]

Actually that wouldn’t be an unusual request at all. Everyone supposedly benches huge weights on exercise forums like these (or in commercial gyms), or squats big weights, or can perform hundreds of push-ups, or tons of pull-ups, when in reality in most cases their form “sucks” for lack of a better term.

They don’t come anywhere near touching and pausing on their chest while benching (oh, “cause it’s bad for the shoulders”…riiiiight), performs quarter squats (“cause squatting below 90 degrees is bad for the knees”), uses little bouncing movements either at the top or bottom end of a push-up and calls them reps, or goes from a 45-90 degree flexed arm hang to thrusting their chin over a pull-up bar and calls them pull-ups.

Whether you want to admit it or not, there are actual form guidelines for exercises. Yes, some are more strict than others. But since this forum is about conditioning and using exercises to improve conditioning, why wouldn’t you want to do the exercise in the way that is going to provide the greatest benefits possible?

If one set of guidelines says that while performing push-ups I only have to come down till my upper arms are parallel with the floor and can flare out while doing so, and I only have to come up until they are at 160 degrees, while another guideline says that I must touch my chest to the ground (in a controlled manner), my elbows have to stay tucked, and I must come up until my arms are locked straight; guess which version is going to ultimately pay better dividends in terms of my strength and conditioning? If that means that your numbers drop off at first, and you just can’t handle that idea, then maybe it’s not your physical conditioning that needs primary attention. [/quote]

Couldnt agree more. Good post.

[Sentoguy]

[quote]DAVE101 wrote:
Some of these rules seem rather arbitrary, like pausing at the bottom. Bouncing the bar off the chest for Bench? Who decides if that’s OK? It’s arbitrary and it depends on where you lift. By that logic, shouldn’t you also pause at the bottom of the push up half way between each rep? I’ve never seen any rule that suggests that, so why do it for pull ups?

This is all just food for thought. It seems like anyone can have their own definition, and there will always be variance.[/quote]

Pausing at the chest is a common guideline in powerlifting competitions. It’s there to force lifters to demonstrate that they are controlling the weight all the way down to the chest and are not dropping it the last couple inches and bouncing it off the chest. In reality it’s usually not much of a pause if the lifter shows control throughout the whole descent, but nonetheless still serves it’s purpose.

With push-ups the same basic guideline would apply, as in the athlete should lower themselves under control all the way gown till they touch their chest and then press back up to lockout. At no point should their body be allowed to free fall towards the ground, nor should they bounce their chest off the ground.

Yes, technically someone can perform push-ups (or any exercise) in a less strict fashion. But they aren’t going to receive the same strength and conditioning benefits or garner the same degree of respect from a performance standpoint as someone who does use strict form.

[Facepalm_Death]

[quote]DAVE101 wrote:
Some of these rules seem rather arbitrary, like pausing at the bottom. Bouncing the bar off the chest for Bench? Who decides if that’s OK? It’s arbitrary and it depends on where you lift. By that logic, shouldn’t you also pause at the bottom of the push up half way between each rep? I’ve never seen any rule that suggests that, so why do it for pull ups?

This is all just food for thought. It seems like anyone can have their own definition, and there will always be variance.[/quote]

The exercises people nitpick the most are competitive lifts in powerlifting. When it comes to doing meets, you can’t bounce the bar off your chest. In the judges eyes it doesn’t count. So when some lifter on the web boasts a 600 deadlift or 400 bench but they bounce off the chest or hitch the deadlift people chime in and say it doesn’t count. There is nothing unreasonable about this, they’re just stating the rules of their sport. Its like if someone posted a video, expecting to receive accolades, of blocking a shot in basketball when the ball is coming down from the top of its arc. Who cares how much swagger the guy had when he jumped up and blocked it or whatever? It would still be goal tending and it wouldn’t count as a block, everyone has a right to chime in and say so. It might be entertaining but it doesn’t count in the books.

For those not competing as lifters though, usually the agreed upon “correct form” is just more effective for some purpose like building muscle size, strength, endurance, or some other athletic quality related to the sport they do compete in. Is doing 40 loose form pullups better than doing 20 strict pullups for any reason other than 40 > 20? What is it better for?

Honestly, if I uploaded a video of myself doing one strict pullup every five seconds, arms going completely straight at the bottom (not necessarily allowing my scapulae to drift apart cuz thats not necessary), pulling my chest to the bar, pausing at the top, for 40 reps, would anyone question that I am better at pullups than the person posting 40 speed pullups in half the range of motion? How could someone seriously level a criticism? What would they say, “That pause it the top is giving him extra rest, that’s cheating!” No, they wouldn’t. See, it’s obvious to everyone when one form for a lift is more correct than another, that’s why when someone does 1/4 squats on video everybody pounces on him, and when someone else squats a heavy single ass to grass no one can say anything negative but “steroids!”

[Facepalm_Death]

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]magick wrote:
Is a dead-hang actual proper form?

I was under the impression that the dead-hang is both inefficient, because you’re releasing all tension from the shoulder, and also not exactly healthy in the long run. Apparently the actual act of going from the dead-hang to the tension required to pull yourself back up stresses the shoulder in a bad way.

I just go down till my elbow forms something like a 45 degree angle in relation to my shoulder or a bit lower than that, then begin pulling up till the bar touches my pecs. I intentionally tense my ab/lower body so that I cannot even start to use the kipping motion.[/quote]

Dead hang is correct, and no, as long as there is sufficient strength in the shoulder musculature/connective tissues, there is no danger in going to a deadhang each time. And yes, that inefficiency is exactly why performing dead hang pull-ups are a degree of magnitude harder than doing abbreviated ROM pull-ups like you perform. If you are making the exercise easier/more efficient, then chances are you are cheating. In some sports this is the name of the game as their only goal is to lift a certain amount of weight from point A to point B, or to perform as many “repetitions” as possible. But if we’re going to call a spade a spade, they are still cheating (within the approved rules of their sport) to make the exercise easier.

Gymnastics conditioning workout: Ring False Grip Pull Ups

These are strict pull-ups. Yes, I realize that he is using rings rather than a bar, and no, one does not have to maintain an “L hang” position for pull-ups to be strict. But notice that he goes to a full dead hang pause on every rep, pulls himself up until his hands are level with his collarbone/upper chest, keeps his head neutral, and uses absolutely no swinging of his lower body (obviously, since he’s performing L pull-ups) or arching of his back to help him develop momemtum.

If someone can perform 32 pull-ups in this fashion (minus the L hang), then they are seriously strong a pull-ups and I’d love to see a video because I appreciate watching truly impressive feats of strength.[/quote]

If anyone could do that, it would be a gymnast. But i doubt they would post a video of it because they have more complicated events they compete in they would just post instead

[DAVE101]

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Whether you want to admit it or not, there are actual form guidelines for exercises. [/quote]
But in reality it doesn’t matter because everyone, every federation, every league, every governing body has DIFFERENT form guidelines. One of which was the Marine Corps guideline which obviously differs from a crossfit guideline which differs from your personal guideline.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Yes, technically someone can perform push-ups (or any exercise) in a less strict fashion. But they aren’t going to receive the same strength and conditioning benefits… why wouldn’t you want to do the exercise in the way that is going to provide the greatest benefits possible? [/quote]
I definitely understand where you’re coming from, but I don’t completely agree. Rep for rep, sure it’s more impressive, but that doesn’t mean that person is getting the most benefit.

What about reps done for speed, like max good form push ups in 60 seconds? The person that does more WORK benefits the most regardless of how strict they are. Notice that the term work still accounts for cheating like using a shortened ROM, which when exaggerated obviously results in less work. Back to pull-ups, pausing extensively may then become limited by their grip strength or some other factor. In these cases it does not benefit the individual to cut their work capacity short.

I mean even changes in diaphragm has consequences. Is it fair to say that sprinters hold their breath for 200m or that benchers should deeply exhale before a bench because it’s more impressive?

TL;DR: there are always going to be ways to make an exercise harder. Strict form is a loose term that can never have a global definition, and it’s definitely not neccessary to maximize benefits.

[spk]

just a personal goal for me. 32 now, and i would like to get to 35…

[Sentoguy]

[quote]DAVE101 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Whether you want to admit it or not, there are actual form guidelines for exercises. [/quote]
But in reality it doesn’t matter because everyone, every federation, every league, every governing body has DIFFERENT form guidelines. One of which was the Marine Corps guideline which obviously differs from a crossfit guideline which differs from your personal guideline.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Yes, technically someone can perform push-ups (or any exercise) in a less strict fashion. But they aren’t going to receive the same strength and conditioning benefits… why wouldn’t you want to do the exercise in the way that is going to provide the greatest benefits possible? [/quote]
I definitely understand where you’re coming from, but I don’t completely agree. Rep for rep, sure it’s more impressive, but that doesn’t mean that person is getting the most benefit.
[/quote]

Yes, it does somewhat depend on the goals of the lifter and why they are going the exercise.

If the goal were building the most muscle, then whatever form produced the most muscle growth would be the best form. If we’re talking about building the most strength and/or conditioning for the muscles involved in pull-ups though, then using a full ROM and no momentum will do that best, thus provide the most benefit.

What about reps done for speed, like max good form push ups in 60 seconds? The person that does more WORK benefits the most regardless of how strict they are. Notice that the term work still accounts for cheating like using a shortened ROM, which when exaggerated obviously results in less work. Back to pull-ups, pausing extensively may then become limited by their grip strength or some other factor. In these cases it does not benefit the individual to cut their work capacity short.

If you are doing reps for speed/time, then obviously the pace is going to be faster and there probably won’t be any pause at the bottom of the rep or at the top.

I mean even changes in diaphragm has consequences. Is it fair to say that sprinters hold their breath for 200m or that benchers should deeply exhale before a bench because it’s more impressive?

I understand that you are attempting to take my argument to it’s logical extreme, which I appreciate. But no one, no one is suggesting engaging in potentially dangerous practices like trying to hold one’s breath and run a maximal effort 200M dash, or not breathe properly while benching (both of which can result in the athlete passing out thus resulting in serious injury, or even having a heart attack (due to the potentially dangerous increase in blood pressure). That’s a totally different argument than saying that using a full ROM and a lack of bounce/momentum is more impressive/beneficial from a strength and muscular conditioning standpoint.

[quote]
TL;DR: there are always going to be ways to make an exercise harder. Strict form is a loose term that can never have a global definition, and it’s definitely not neccessary to maximize benefits.[/quote]

I agree, you can usually make an exercise harder, but I don’t actually agree that the term “strict form” is a loose term. Whether performing exercises with super strict form is necessarily always the best course of action though is a different story and that’s where I agree with what I think you’re trying to say.

[Sentoguy]

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]magick wrote:
Is a dead-hang actual proper form?

I was under the impression that the dead-hang is both inefficient, because you’re releasing all tension from the shoulder, and also not exactly healthy in the long run. Apparently the actual act of going from the dead-hang to the tension required to pull yourself back up stresses the shoulder in a bad way.

I just go down till my elbow forms something like a 45 degree angle in relation to my shoulder or a bit lower than that, then begin pulling up till the bar touches my pecs. I intentionally tense my ab/lower body so that I cannot even start to use the kipping motion.[/quote]

Dead hang is correct, and no, as long as there is sufficient strength in the shoulder musculature/connective tissues, there is no danger in going to a deadhang each time. And yes, that inefficiency is exactly why performing dead hang pull-ups are a degree of magnitude harder than doing abbreviated ROM pull-ups like you perform. If you are making the exercise easier/more efficient, then chances are you are cheating. In some sports this is the name of the game as their only goal is to lift a certain amount of weight from point A to point B, or to perform as many “repetitions” as possible. But if we’re going to call a spade a spade, they are still cheating (within the approved rules of their sport) to make the exercise easier.

Gymnastics conditioning workout: Ring False Grip Pull Ups

These are strict pull-ups. Yes, I realize that he is using rings rather than a bar, and no, one does not have to maintain an “L hang” position for pull-ups to be strict. But notice that he goes to a full dead hang pause on every rep, pulls himself up until his hands are level with his collarbone/upper chest, keeps his head neutral, and uses absolutely no swinging of his lower body (obviously, since he’s performing L pull-ups) or arching of his back to help him develop momemtum.

If someone can perform 32 pull-ups in this fashion (minus the L hang), then they are seriously strong a pull-ups and I’d love to see a video because I appreciate watching truly impressive feats of strength.[/quote]

If anyone could do that, it would be a gymnast. But i doubt they would post a video of it because they have more complicated events they compete in they would just post instead[/quote]

Agreed, but there are probably some rock climbers, fitness nuts and just plain freaks out there that could do it too. If spk really can, then he should post a video of himself doing so because that would earn him major respect and just be awesome to see.

[Silyak]

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

For those not competing as lifters though, usually the agreed upon “correct form” is just more effective for some purpose like building muscle size, strength, endurance, or some other athletic quality related to the sport they do compete in. Is doing 40 loose form pullups better than doing 20 strict pullups for any reason other than 40 > 20? What is it better for?

[/quote]
If I could do sets of 20 strict pull-ups, I would. But even then, I would probably also take days where I would try to bang out 30 with questionable form or load up some weight and still try to get 20 any way I could, or load up more weight and barely get 10. Particularly on exercises like pull-ups where you aren’t likely to hurt yourself, you can make progress by pushing the form sometimes.

You don’t always have to do everything to make the exercise as hard as possible. Sometimes it’s best to make it easier and do more or make it harder in different ways.

In particular, I find that if I really want to fry my lats and upper back, I get the best results by doing as many strict pull-ups as I can and then continuing while letting the form deteriorate to a certain extent. I don’t swing out of the bottom but I use a little leg drive to finish up the movement. I’ve also tried stopping as soon as I can’t do another strict pull-up and I don’t get as much progress from workout to workout.

[Sentoguy]

[quote]Silyak wrote:

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

For those not competing as lifters though, usually the agreed upon “correct form” is just more effective for some purpose like building muscle size, strength, endurance, or some other athletic quality related to the sport they do compete in. Is doing 40 loose form pullups better than doing 20 strict pullups for any reason other than 40 > 20? What is it better for?

[/quote]
If I could do sets of 20 strict pull-ups, I would. But even then, I would probably also take days where I would try to bang out 30 with questionable form or load up some weight and still try to get 20 any way I could, or load up more weight and barely get 10. Particularly on exercises like pull-ups where you aren’t likely to hurt yourself, you can make progress by pushing the form sometimes.

You don’t always have to do everything to make the exercise as hard as possible. Sometimes it’s best to make it easier and do more or make it harder in different ways.

In particular, I find that if I really want to fry my lats and upper back, I get the best results by doing as many strict pull-ups as I can and then continuing while letting the form deteriorate to a certain extent. I don’t swing out of the bottom but I use a little leg drive to finish up the movement. I’ve also tried stopping as soon as I can’t do another strict pull-up and I don’t get as much progress from workout to workout. [/quote]

What you are referring to would be akin to “intensity techniques” or “set extenders” in bodybuilding. Methods by which one can continue to thrash the target musculature, even after it has lost the ability to perform the exercise correctly. I have no problem with people utilizing such methods if they feel that doing so better serves their goals, but IMO they should not call these abbreviated repetitions “pull-ups”. Instead, something like “20 pull-ups + 6 partial reps” would be a more accurate (and honest) description.

[Facepalm_Death]

[quote]Silyak wrote:

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

For those not competing as lifters though, usually the agreed upon “correct form” is just more effective for some purpose like building muscle size, strength, endurance, or some other athletic quality related to the sport they do compete in. Is doing 40 loose form pullups better than doing 20 strict pullups for any reason other than 40 > 20? What is it better for?

[/quote]
If I could do sets of 20 strict pull-ups, I would. But even then, I would probably also take days where I would try to bang out 30 with questionable form or load up some weight and still try to get 20 any way I could, or load up more weight and barely get 10. Particularly on exercises like pull-ups where you aren’t likely to hurt yourself, you can make progress by pushing the form sometimes.

You don’t always have to do everything to make the exercise as hard as possible. Sometimes it’s best to make it easier and do more or make it harder in different ways.

In particular, I find that if I really want to fry my lats and upper back, I get the best results by doing as many strict pull-ups as I can and then continuing while letting the form deteriorate to a certain extent. I don’t swing out of the bottom but I use a little leg drive to finish up the movement. I’ve also tried stopping as soon as I can’t do another strict pull-up and I don’t get as much progress from workout to workout. [/quote]

Fair enough.

However, it seems to me that a lot of people in this discussion are viewing pullup performance as an end in itself. While I think its great to do pullups, I don’t do them because I want to get impressive numbers of reps or anything, I do them because the upper back work seems to carry over well to my deadlift and especially keeping tight form for benching. They never fry my lats and I would never expect one exercise to do that in a few sets because upper back muscles seem to be able to take lots of hammering, but I do feel that strict pullups have made my upper back easier to activate. DB rows do fry my lats when I want them to, and I also feel that looser form is more appropriate for these than it is for pullups. I don’t know if this properly explains where I’m coming from, but basically I think some exercises have a “point”. Doing loose form pullups misses the “point” in my mind and doing looser form DB rows doesn’t miss the point.

Of course I understand that no one can have perfect form 100% of the time. So don’t get me wrong. I basically agree with you because you say you try to get as many strict pullups as possible, then you push further with worse form, that’s fine. As long as the PRIORITY is keeping strict form on as many as possible its all good. But I disagree with the mentality I keep seeing of not doing ANY of them very strict at all just to crank out a huge number. I would be impressed if someone even did 10 perfect pullups and then cranked out 20 more that were drastically kipped

Have you tried doing strict pullups to near failure and then supersetting with strict chinups?

[BCP27]

I’ve heard of some powerlifters doing lat pulldowns instead of pull ups, and it seems like they choose lat pulldowns because adding that much weight in the form of a backpack or vest was very impractical. Specifically, I’m thinking of this documentary on powerlifting, with one story about a custom lat pulldown machine these guys made that had 1000-1200 pounds on it.

Most people probably do them because of other reasons though, these are very special cases.