Ditching Bodybuilding!

[Iron_Beast]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Iron Beast wrote:
Only? Like I need to be involved in anything more? I didn’t go to school to become an athlete.
[/quote]

Yeah. I don’t kick train like an athlete, kick a football around 3 x per week with my team, only to watch the game. Fuck me, if you’re not competing, you’re only doing it on a recreational level.

Could their “poor 40 times” have something to do with THEM NOT TRAINING TO REDUCE THEIR 40 TIMES? Do you think they would have poor 40 times IF THEY TRAINED TO REDUCE THEIR 40 TIMES? That is like saying baseball players sure do suck at Olympic sprinting.

Go take a look at some of the vertical leaps on Olympic lifters compared to bodybuilders. They both use weights to get to their goals. Yet one has a huge leap and the other generally couldn’t jump over a jam tin. Take a guess which category I’d tip you to fall under.

[/quote]
I’m sorry, but you must be on something to think that anyone here is writing that someone should train JUST LIKE a competing bodybuilder to do well at their sport. You would have to be one blind and foolish human to ignore that it has been written several times over the last few pages that sport specific training is needed.
[/quote]
Okay, my main argument that bodybuilding style training is a notch above useless. You are saying it wouldn’t hinder their performance. I think anyone wasting time doing anything that “wouldn’t hinder their performance” is an idiot.

You would have to be on something to continue typing as if this hasn’t been repeated so many times that it makes your attempt to ignore it funny as all hell.

I get a laugh at generally all your posts. Negative, never helpful and so on. There are others on this board who are far more contributive to T-Nation.

My arms aren’t small at all. I don’t spend an hour training arms. you clearly don’t know as much as you think you do if you believe it takes over an hour worth of training just to train arms. You are also ignoring genetics meaning that someone who gains size on their arms easily obviously wouldn’t need to focus on them as much.

Did you not read my post? You go on about how I ignore all your points, yet I know bodybuilders far more established than yourself and they would spend more than one hour a week on their arms. It might not be the best way to do it, but I can’t argue with their results.

Dear God. Go test your ability to to not come in last at a pro level bodybuilding contest. I’d be interested in seeing how you stack up.

Like you could. I wouldn’t bother as it’s not my scene. Like sports are obviously not yours.

You are starting to make some sense now. I couldn’t come in anything other than last at a pro bodybuilding contest like you probably couldn’t get over a 10 inch vertical.

That makes about as much sense as what you just typed. Obviously someone would want to train to reduce their 40 time if they had a goal of reducing their 40 time. To act like anyone has written anything other than that just makes you look a little slow.

Slow? That’s what you’d look like on the track next to me. And I’d possibly look a tad smaller next to you in posing trunks.

Have you ever thought that the box squats and the specific exercises of Westside greatly assist in increasing ones vertical and speed?

[quote]
So, let’s repeat for those who clearly can’t read. If someone continued to train using a split style of training WHILE CONTINUING SPORT SPECIFIC TRAINING, why would someone think they would become less athletic? If you make another post as if SPORT SPECIFIC has been left out of anything that has been written, you will simply prove what a waste discussing anything with you is.[/quote]
This is painful. I’m clearly asking why someone would waste time on a bodybuilding program. They won’t get anywhere near the results they would on a Westside program or anything constructed by a Strength and Conditioning coach with half a clue.

The bodybuilding will only give them some general strength and a little size. Nothing on what an athlete would want out of spending hours in the gym per week. They want a little more bang for the buck.

[Professor_X]

[quote]Iron Beast wrote:
Yeah. I don’t kick train like an athlete, kick a football around 3 x per week with my team, only to watch the game. Fuck me, if you’re not competing, you’re only doing it on a recreational level.[/quote]

I’m sorry, but so the fuck what?

[quote]
Go take a look at some of the vertical leaps on Olympic lifters compared to bodybuilders. They both use weights to get to their goals. Yet one has a huge leap and the other generally couldn’t jump over a jam tin. Take a guess which category I’d tip you to fall under.[/quote]

You said “40 yard dash times”. Now we are talking about who can leap the highest? Exactly how many other activities are you going to throw in here? Do you think other athletes in other sports are somehow “less athletic” unless they can compete equally in every other sport?

[quote]

Okay, my main argument that bodybuilding style training is a notch above useless. You are saying it wouldn’t hinder their performance. I think anyone wasting time doing anything that “wouldn’t hinder their performance” is an idiot.[/quote]

I am also saying that apparently, many basketball players feel it helps their performance, or else they wouldn’t be training that way as million dollar athletes.

Whether the OP needs to train that way specifically is a completely different matter altogether. You do what works for you. the real question is, can you stop making blanket statements attempting to degrade an entire approach to training as if it is useless to sports when there are high paid professional athletes who still train very similar to it.

It is like you feel a need to make yourself appear superior to others in the weight room simply because they specifically train for size. Why is that?

[quote]

I get a laugh at generally all your posts. Negative, never helpful and so on. There are others on this board who are far more contributive to T-Nation.[/quote]

Bullshit. If you are about to claim that my posts are never helpful you are an idiot, plain and simple. I haven’t seen one post from you offering assistance to anyone. You could pull up 5-10 posts like that of mine by just doing a search on my name and looking at the first page that pops up.

[quote]
Did you not read my post? You go on about how I ignore all your points, yet I know bodybuilders far more established than yourself and they would spend more than one hour a week on their arms. It might not be the best way to do it, but I can’t argue with their results.[/quote]

I can’t argue with my results either. I could care less what the people you personally know do. In fact, let’s go with Ronnie Coleman since you enjoy bringing him up so much. His workouts are recorded on video for mass audiences. He does NOT spend over an hour training arms.

[quote]
Like you could. I wouldn’t bother as it’s not my scene. Like sports are obviously not yours. [/quote]

Then why worry about how someone else can perform at a sport they don’t train for if you aren’t willing to perform at something you don’t train for? YOU are the one who brought that up. Why back down now?

[quote]

You are starting to make some sense now. [/quote]

Funny as all hell. I haven’t done anything but retype what was written on the first page. If I am just now “starting” to make sense, you are one blind fucker.

[quote]

Have you ever thought that the box squats and the specific exercises of Westside greatly assist in increasing ones vertical and speed?[/quote]

Are you saying I am telling someone to avoid box squats? I’m not. If that helps them reach their goal, more power to them.

[Iron_Beast]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
You said “40 yard dash times”. Now we are talking about who can leap the highest? Exactly how many other activities are you going to throw in here?
[/quote]
Well, I think that 40 yard dash times, vertical leap and lifting stats were something the OP mentioned in his very first post.

I am also saying that apparently, many basketball players feel it helps their performance, or else they wouldn’t be training that way as million dollar athletes.

Okay, when I was trying to play pro footy in Australia, there were guys who stuck to the program the Strength Coaches prescribed to the very letter. Then, there were the guys that wanted the big guns purely for show. They were the guys who were freakishly talented and didn’t have to worry about ever getting cut as their skills were so far advanced. They got all the attention in the newspapers and etc because they were the bodies the paper wanted to photograph.

Perhaps the asthetics of a bodybuilding program are the goal for these people.

Whether the OP needs to train that way specifically is a completely different matter altogether. You do what works for you. the real question is, can you stop making blanket statements attempting to degrade an entire approach to training as if it is useless to sports when there are high paid professional athletes who still train very similar to it.

Read my above comment. Perhaps they do it for aesthetics. I don’t know your sporting background but when you’ve got up to 20 contact training hours per week, I sure as fuck don’t want to be sitting in the gym doing something that won’t be bringing the best out of me.

It is like you feel a need to make yourself appear superior to others in the weight room simply because they specifically train for size. Why is that?

I respect bodybuilders. And that sort of statement coming from you is rich. Any post I’ve seen in the physique and performance section has your negative comments on the bottom as though you are some oracle.

I’ve got plenty of mates that even get up on stage and compete. I’ve got respect for them as it is a 24/7 ‘sport’. I’d never make a comment that I was superior in any way. Yet if one of them was trying to make the grade in my team, I’d probably point them in the direction of a more performance based program.

Bullshit. If you are about to claim that my posts are never helpful you are an idiot, plain and simple. I haven’t seen one post from you offering assistance to anyone. You could pull up 5-10 posts like that of mine by just doing a search on my name and looking at the first page that pops up.

Obviously you didn’t have a look at my “Playing Div 1 Ball” posts. I encouraged the guy and offered some advice.

I can’t argue with my results either. I could care less what the people you personally know do. In fact, let’s go with Ronnie Coleman since you enjoy bringing him up so much. His workouts are recorded on video for mass audiences. He does NOT spend over an hour training arms.

Fine. He might not but there are those out there that do. If you want to harp on about genetics I suppose we could say that Ronnie doesn’t need to as he has a arsenal of AAS going into the system and great genes.

Funny as all hell. I haven’t done anything but retype what was written on the first page. If I am just now “starting” to make sense, you are one blind fucker.

Same here dick. I actually just wrote beware the flaming as the title was something that people might take offense to. You were the one who brought it up.

Are you saying I am telling someone to avoid box squats? I’m not. If that helps them reach their goal, more power to them.

No, I was saying that athletes who train in performance based programs such as WSFSB have a better chance than bodybuilders who don’t train like that to increase their performance stats.

The thing is with a program such as Skinny Bastards, there are no pointless exercises. I think I would find a number in Ronnie’s program.

My main point:

If you are training 20+ hours a week to improve for a sport, why waste time on a program that’s very backbone is not designed to improve your performance?

If you’re at the top and you are so skilled and have no risk of getting cut, then train for aesthetics. If not, do the things that will make you a champ.

[OBoile]

[quote]Iron Beast wrote:

You make some excellent points. Clearly you have played a high level sport or just simply understand the demands.[/quote]
Ha! I wish. I’m not the greatest athlete… good enough to be one of the better guys on our work team but thats about it.

What I can do though is read articles and books written by guys like Cressey, Baggett and DeFranco and understand what they are saying.

[jtrinsey]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
My “deal” is the fact that many of you seem to believe that training like a bodybuilder holds back athleticism when that is a very basic and false belief. Yes, you need sport specific training, but to act as if lifting in a split training style makes you a worse athlete in itself is ridiculous. Does it hurt to admit that?[/quote]

The idea that training like a bodybuilder COULD hold back your athleticism is in fact not a false belief for all athletes. Is the OP not a perfect example of that? For some basketball players (the anorexic Kevin Durant comes to mind), utilizing bodybuilding methods to try to build more muscle all over their body would be very helpful. For others, it might not be the optimal strategy.

The point is, an athlete needs to train like an athlete. This means utilizing different methods at the proper time.

Generally speaking, bodybuilding training (which I would define as utilizing extensive TUT with methods such as drop sets, peak contractions, as well as more of a focus on isolation and machine-based exercises when compared to other programs) would not be optimal for most basketball players. For most athletes, there are far better methods of training that could be employed. It’s just common sense, bodybuilders train for the demands of their sport and basketball players train for the demands of their sport. The two sports are about as different as you can get, so why would the training be the same?

[aussie486]

[quote]Iron Beast wrote:

Fuck me, if you’re not competing, you’re only doing it on a recreational level.

[/quote]

   Gotta disagree with that, most guys i see who compete and I train in the only gym that supports and puts on a Pro show in Oz who claim they are ''competeing bodybuilders'' are these sad sacks on heaps of gear that can't even get to 200lbs with their usage, really sad. I can see why you don't have much respect for their atheletic abillity because i don't, they give bodybuilders a bad rep.

   And then they either make it to the National  level or at least to some Australian title and realise they are just drug addicts with no atheletic base and on cease their  juicing they stop training and you never see them again, of course there are the exceptions like Priest but then again the gym is flooded at comp time with all these130-200lb no muscle, dieted down stick figures who have trained for 5 minutes who call themselves ''competeing bodbuilders''...well i suppose that's one term for them and i can see why you don't respect them because sure as shit is shit, I don't either.

[aussie486]

[quote]Iron Beast wrote:
. Every Bodybuilder I know who has competed (And I know many) are generally good at one thing. Putting on size. They have poor lifting stats compared to a decent Power Lifter or Athlete. Most of them would clock tragic 40 times, poor verticals and I don’t even want to think how they might be able to compete aerobically.

[/quote]

    Gee, ever heard of a guy in Oz called Ange Galti(not sure of spellin of last name) a 70k bodybuilder who regular basis outbenchs the majority of powerlifters in Oz, pretty sure he has a excellent 40 time as well as vertical as well.
     Again in re to poor verticals and generally poor performance, my earlier post in re to these 5min flex reading ''competeing bodbuilders'' referr to this.

[aussie486]

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:

The point is, an athlete needs to train like an athlete. This means utilizing different methods at the proper time.

For most athletes, there are far better methods of training that could be employed. It’s just common sense,
[/quote]

    Agree with this, but all the methods in the world mean sweet Fa if the athlete is not putting a effort in at the gym, too many times I have seen  ''professional athletes'' or people who call themselves ''Athletes'' are just as big a joke as the 5min ''bodybuilder''. Talk to Daley Thompson about Tamsyn Lewis's level of effort in the gym,
       to a certain degree I would be worried if someone called me a Athlete with the Austalian definition of that word.

[ChuckyT]

[quote]Iron Beast wrote:
I’ve got plenty of mates that even get up on stage and compete.[/quote]

Compete… Hmmmm… is that where you have the balls to get up in your chosen sport and compete against your peers, and be judged based on your performance? Sounds like a great idea!

[Iron_Beast]

[quote]ChuckyT wrote:
Iron Beast wrote:
I’ve got plenty of mates that even get up on stage and compete.

Compete… Hmmmm… is that where you have the balls to get up in your chosen sport and compete against your peers, and be judged based on your performance? Sounds like a great idea![/quote]

Yeah it is a great idea. I personally couldn’t think of anything more boring than training for no real deadline.

[Iron_Beast]

[quote]aussie486 wrote:
Gee, ever heard of a guy in Oz called Ange Galti(not sure of spellin of last name) a 70k bodybuilder who regular basis outbenchs the majority of powerlifters in Oz, pretty sure he has a excellent 40 time as well as vertical as well.
Again in re to poor verticals and generally poor performance, my earlier post in re to these 5min flex reading ‘‘competeing bodbuilders’’ referr to this.
[/quote]

Of course there are going to be exceptions. All I am saying is…

If you want to improve your sporting performance, why not do programs that are designed to improve your performance in sport?

[Iron_Beast]

[quote]aussie486 wrote:
Gotta disagree with that, most guys i see who compete and I train in the only gym that supports and puts on a Pro show in Oz who claim they are ‘‘competeing bodybuilders’’ are these sad sacks on heaps of gear that can’t even get to 200lbs with their usage, really sad. I can see why you don’t have much respect for their atheletic abillity because i don’t, they give bodybuilders a bad rep.

   And then they either make it to the National  level or at least to some Australian title and realise they are just drug addicts with no atheletic base and on cease their  juicing they stop training and you never see them again, of course there are the exceptions like Priest but then again the gym is flooded at comp time with all these130-200lb no muscle, dieted down stick figures who have trained for 5 minutes who call themselves ''competeing bodbuilders''...well i suppose that's one term for them and i can see why you don't respect them because sure as shit is shit, I don't either.

[/quote]

Now there are some generalisations.

By they way, I have said that I respect bodybuilders for what they do.

[RagingBull]

I just got back from the gym where the Perth Wildcats (NBL) were training. Most of the team was there and I think it was probably an easy on-the-road session, but it was very interesting to see their training methods.

I saw a couple of the guys doing some 10-12 Rep push presses from behind the neck, but there was a lot that left me scratching my head.

There was a LOT of 15+ rep calf raises going on which made me wonder if they were concerened about their vertical leap at all. Or maybe they were all rehabbing?

Also featured were a lot of biceps curls and quite a bit of standing around. All this after no warm up and a group static stretch session where they all looked stiff and unmotivated.

There were none of them there who looked lean, fast OR strong. What’s going on in professional basketball today? Maybe the OP should get in there and show them how to train!

[system]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Iron Beast wrote:

Fighting Irish for one.

Fighting Irish was noting the same thing I was, that claiming “bodybuilding” held back your progress is one strange way of looking at this. If there are basketball players who are famous and considered near the top of their sport who trained like ‘bodybuilders’, how can someone claim “bodybuilding” held them back? If he was too heavy, which it seems like his coach noted, then he was too heavy. Why blame “bodybuilding” for him eating too much and getting too heavy to play his position well?

Is anyone taking the stance that they know for sure that simply dropping the extra weight and focusing more on what was needed for his position isn’t what he needed?[/quote]

most successful athletes don’t train like body builders at all.

they do lift weights, but most routines concentrate around sport specific strength. they don’t spend lots of time and effort on isolation excercises as they are pointless unless you just want to look pretty.

they get muscular looking because, as a possible shock to many die hard “body builders”, you can build a muscular physique with compound movements and full body work outs.

most athletes also run and perform so much cardio that body builders would shat themselves while incorrectly worrying that their body will eat it’s muscles.

when i played football, baseball, basketball and wrestling, cardio was the most important of all as you needed endurance.

strength was important too, but it did nothing for you if you were too tired to compete after 20 minutes of running around. in real life situations, you never really have to be able to stand up with 500 lb objects on your shoulders or lay under 300 lb objects and push them.

muscle growth and size was an automatic effect of training.

[Lean_Athlete]

This might be of help to some of you curious to how NBA Players train.

http://www.coachmarian.de/Spezials/Workouts/Workoutentrance.htm

[Man_O_War]

[quote]Lean_Athlete wrote:
This might be of help to some of you curious to how NBA Players train.

http://www.coachmarian.de/Spezials/Workouts/Workoutentrance.htm
[/quote]

“Harpring extends his wing span with back flyes”

Had anyone posted them as a routine they follow for basketball, they would have been flamed to high hell on this site.

With good reason though.

[Iron_Beast]

[quote]Lean_Athlete wrote:
This might be of help to some of you curious to how NBA Players train.

http://www.coachmarian.de/Spezials/Workouts/Workoutentrance.htm

[/quote]

I see programs like that and I wonder 2 things.

1: Has the world gone fucking mad?

2: Do the publishers of those articles not want the meat and potatoes stuff? Very few pubishers would find the Westside Stuff interesting. It is simple and effective yet probably doesn’t have the wow factor of someone standing on a wobble board doing bicep curls.

I was watching the NBA the other night and they were saying how Steve Nash is a machine in the gym. He “Does all kinds of crazy things on a swiss ball.” I suppose one can’t argue with the results, but I’d love to see how a team would go if Defranco was given the head Strength and Conditioning position.

[Lean_Athlete]

I’ve always wondered what people on here would think about NBA workouts. I am a ball player and i don’t personally think some of the stuff i’ve seen would actually help me on the court. Anywhooo, below is a link of Tracy McGrady’s off-season workout. Looks Ok to me. But i’ mot a great judge.

- YouTube

[OBoile]

[quote]Lean_Athlete wrote:
I’ve always wondered what people on here would think about NBA workouts. I am a ball player and i don’t personally think some of the stuff i’ve seen would actually help me on the court. Anywhooo, below is a link of Tracy McGrady’s off-season workout. Looks Ok to me. But i’ mot a great judge.

- YouTube

I saw that this summer and my first thought was that he was going to hurt his back again this season.

I was right.

Basketball is pretty far behind football in terms of training IMO. Those guys are all doing really bad workouts. I wonder if they just publish that to fool people (like the bodybuilding mags).

I do know that Kobe is a big fan of squats. I’ve even seen shots of him squating with chains.

Watching UNC last night, the comentators mentioned how muscular the Heels looked while still being very fast. I know their S and C coach does a lot of heavy compound lifts along with olympic lifts and strongman stuff.

[RagingBull]

“Harpring works out his upper body on practice days and then his lower body immediately AFTER games”

I don’t know the bloke, but I question his intensity both during the game and in his session afterwards.