[quote]RagingBull wrote:
X’s deal is that he’s overly defensive and closed minded.
When his pet topics are concerned he can be a wealth of knowlege, but when the subject isn’t his expertise he gets uptight and hostile.[/quote]
I agree that he could be of value with some of his posts.
Building your body is bodybuilding, to me anyways. Unless this guy was competing, I don’t understand why he couldn’t have worked both areas successfully.
Unless he lost 20lbs of pure fat, losing weight probably was a dumb move. People normally bulk UP when they want to gain strength, but like I said 20lbs of fatloss would probably help the verticle/dash.
I, personally, can train my big 3, my sprints(which is my main form of HIIT cardio), and bodybuilding isolation movements all year round with good results. That is while maintaining a low bodyfat for several frequent photoshoots.
[quote]Roy wrote:
Building your body is bodybuilding, to me anyways.
[/quote]
I’m not going to get into the whole “What bodybuilding means to me” debate. I’m talking bodybuilding as in putting size on as the primary goal.
Probably because his coach deemed him to be to heavy at 6-2 and 230.
It has been quoted at 15 pounds of LBM.
Or, people just start training a bit smarter than they were previously. You don’t have to get bigger to get stronger. Olympic Lifters can stay in the same weight divisions and still gain strength.
I’m sure that works for you and your chosen field.
[quote]Iron Beast wrote:
Interesting story. 6-5 and 205 is pretty damned skinny though. At that height you would be playing 3 or 4 wouldn’t you? I would say that a bit of extra weight wouldn’t be a bad thing in your case.
The OP though was fairly sizeable at 6-2 and 230.
[/quote]
Michael Jordan was 6-6, 213 so I wasn’t far off that. Like I said, I was already slow to be out on the wing and they didn’t want any extra weight slowing me down. I’d finish the season up around 195 usually.
Most basketball players are usually a little skinnier than you’d expect.
[quote]Jason B wrote:
Michael Jordan was 6-6, 213 so I wasn’t far off that. Like I said, I was already slow to be out on the wing and they didn’t want any extra weight slowing me down. I’d finish the season up around 195 usually.
Most basketball players are usually a little skinnier than you’d expect.
[/quote]
Good point about Jordan. It is only a recent thing that Ball players are putting more effort into their resistance training.
I read on Cressey’s site, the football players are coming out with far better test results than ballers. Even the quaterbacks are out leaping them on the vertical.
A hypertrophy cycle in the early off season is a good thing to get back the muscle that was lost during the season and maybe a little more. But once that is all back on plus a little change, I believe it’s time to start working on the things that will give you the edge over the opposition.
[quote]Iron Beast wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Well, according to some here, he should have not made any progress towards his goal since it can be used for the dreaded “bodybuilding”.
The more I read your posts, the more I wonder what your deal is.
I train for performance and that is why I work mostly with the Westside stuff and I am very loyal to that manner of training. As I imagine you are to bodybuilding.
If somebody was competing in bodybuilding and they were using a more performance based program such as the Westside principles, I would see that as a mistake. There are plenty of other programs that will yield greater results.
I could admit that and I would know that my training is not the means for that end. Why do you have to make out bodybuilding style training is for everyone. It is a senseless argument.[/quote]
Where did I write that bodybuilding style training was for everyone? I didn’t write that or even hint at that. You obviously AREN’T reading what is written because that wasn’t stated. What IS being stated is that making blanket statements about how bodybuilding is WRONG for basketball players is false. I’ve written those exact words so how is it you’ve missed it? I am also saying this guy needed to focus more on his own needs for his own position, but thinking that by using a split routine that this alone was holding him back (instead of him simply not working on cardio and increasing his speed WHILE continuing to train that way) could be a mistake.
Now, please incorrectly state again that I am saying everyone needs to train just like most bodybuilders.
My “deal” is the fact that many of you seem to believe that training like a bodybuilder holds back athleticism when that is a very basic and false belief. Yes, you need sport specific training, but to act as if lifting in a split training style makes you a worse athlete in itself is ridiculous. Does it hurt to admit that?
[quote]RagingBull wrote:
Iron Beast wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Well, according to some here, he should have not made any progress towards his goal since it can be used for the dreaded “bodybuilding”.
The more I read your posts, the more I wonder what your deal is.
X’s deal is that he’s overly defensive and closed minded.
When his pet topics are concerned he can be a wealth of knowlege, but when the subject isn’t his expertise he gets uptight and hostile.[/quote]
I could call you closed minded as well for not being able to understand the point being made.
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Big…Bulky…Musclebound.
Good Lord that is retarded.
Have you ever seen guys like Dereck Fisher(2 Guard)or LeBron (2 Guard)or Stephon Marbury (2 Guard).
These boys have SERIOUS muscle.
Muscle bound my ass, you have an antiquated view, muscle does not make you slow or unable to jump over a telephone book.
[/quote]
According to nba.com
Fisher is 6’1" and 205.
Marbury is 6’2" and 205.
Lebron is 6’8" and 240.
None of those guys are as “muscle bound” as a 6’2" 230 lb. guy. Dropping to 210 would make this guy fit right in it would appear.
The fact is that increasing size (especially in the legs) is good up to a point, but after that it will be detremental. How many 230 lb. sprinters do you see? Not to mention basketball players have to carry that weight up and down the court for an entire game. That would likely get pretty tiring.
As with many other speed dominated sports, for a guard (not necessarily a big man) in basketball, strength relative to weight is key.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Where did I write that bodybuilding style training was for everyone? I didn’t write that or even hint at that. You obviously AREN’T reading what is written because that wasn’t stated. What IS being stated is that making blanket statements about how bodybuilding is WRONG for basketball players is false. I’ve written those exact words so how is it you’ve missed it? I am also saying this guy needed to focus more on his own needs for his own position, but thinking that by using a split routine that this alone was holding him back (instead of him simply not working on cardio and increasing his speed WHILE continuing to train that way) could be a mistake.
Now, please incorrectly state again that I am saying everyone needs to train just like most bodybuilders.
My “deal” is the fact that many of you seem to believe that training like a bodybuilder holds back athleticism when that is a very basic and false belief. Yes, you need sport specific training, but to act as if lifting in a split training style makes you a worse athlete in itself is ridiculous. Does it hurt to admit that?[/quote]
So you expect this guy to “focus more on his own needs” while still doing a 6-day split? So, weights 6 times a week, cardio/games 2-3 times, sprints 2-3 times plus practice and skill work? That doesn’t seem like too much to you? You don’t think that his (or any other athlete’s) time would be better spent if he could cut the lifting to 3 or 4 days per week?
Also, is it possible to do a 6-day split without using a bunch of isolation exercises? You know, the ones that every author here says don’t help with improving sports performance (that whole, “athletes train movements, bodybuilders train muscles” idea)?
The ones that don’t work your CNS. I have yet to see an article on this site that recomends and “arms day” for basketball players (or any athlete for that matter).
Did it ever occur to you that it has been almost 10 years since Malone was a top player and that maybe… just maybe advances in training athletes have been made since then?
Did it occur to you that perhaps Malone was successful despite his training rather than because of it? Or maybe it was because he was one of the few players actually doing any weight work at the time? I will grant you that training like a body builder is better than not training at all.
Bodybuilders have a goal: bigger muscles and good definition
Athletes have a different goal: improve performance at a given activity
While there is a correlation, these goals are not the same. Why then would you expect athletes and bodybuilders to train the same way?
For the record, 6’2, 230 is not musclebound. Unless of course that was his contest weight, which it wasn’t.
Any of you guys ever hear of Shaq?
[quote]Roy wrote:
For the record, 6’2, 230 is not musclebound. Unless of course that was his contest weight, which it wasn’t.
Any of you guys ever hear of Shaq?[/quote]
Wow. All I can say is “Wow”.
You clearly don’t play basketball if you want to compare the size of a PG to Shaq.
Next you’ll say its okay for a WR to weigh 300 because lots of football linemen do.
If you want to make the case that 6’2" 230 lbs. isn’t too big (despite the fact that his play improved after he droped the weight) then find a guard in the NBA that is the same weight at 6’2". I certainly can’t think of any.
[quote]OBoile wrote:
Did it occur to you that perhaps Malone was successful despite his training rather than because of it? Or maybe it was because he was one of the few players actually doing any weight work at the time? [/quote]
Malone grew up on a pig farm and was a physical machine his whole life. Like most professional athletes, if all of his training took place on the couch and all he ate was mama’s home cooking he would probably still be a better athlete than most people that do the most ‘correct’ training program around.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Where did I write that bodybuilding style training was for everyone?
I didn’t write that or even hint at that. You obviously AREN’T reading what is written because that wasn’t stated. What IS being stated is that making blanket statements about how bodybuilding is WRONG for basketball players is false.
[/quote]
Okay, you have a handful of examples who are generally PF’s or Centers. I’m yet to get an example of a PG who is a devotee of a bodybuilding program. There are clearly better programs out there than a typical bodybuilding program.
I would wager the house that anyone would make far more athletic progress following WSFSB than a bodybuilding program, even if they were doing the same cardio and speed work.
Okay, to make you happy. You think everyone needs to train just like most bodybuilders.
It is better than nothing. I’ll admit only that. But there are so many better programs than a typical bodybuilding program. I’d follow Paul Chek before I followed Ronnie Coleman for sport specific training.
[quote]
Yes, you need sport specific training, but to act as if lifting in a split training style makes you a worse athlete in itself is ridiculous. Does it hurt to admit that?[/quote]
I don’t really think devoting an hour + in the weights room for arms only is time efficient or that beneficial to an athlete.
[quote]Roy wrote:
For the record, 6’2, 230 is not musclebound. Unless of course that was his contest weight, which it wasn’t.
[/quote]
Contest weight?
[quote]
Any of you guys ever hear of Shaq?[/quote]
Yeah he was a great PG. Dribbling, passing, blazing speed, amazing vertical, and etc.
Not a very good point buddy.
[quote]OBoile wrote:
Roy wrote:
For the record, 6’2, 230 is not musclebound. Unless of course that was his contest weight, which it wasn’t.
Any of you guys ever hear of Shaq?
Wow. All I can say is “Wow”.
You clearly don’t play basketball if you want to compare the size of a PG to Shaq.
Next you’ll say its okay for a WR to weigh 300 because lots of football linemen do.
If you want to make the case that 6’2" 230 lbs. isn’t too big (despite the fact that his play improved after he droped the weight) then find a guard in the NBA that is the same weight at 6’2". I certainly can’t think of any.[/quote]
I know. 6-2 230 is more Bo Jackson size. There would not be a Point at that size in the NBA.
[quote]KombatAthlete wrote:
OBoile wrote:
Did it occur to you that perhaps Malone was successful despite his training rather than because of it? Or maybe it was because he was one of the few players actually doing any weight work at the time?
Malone grew up on a pig farm and was a physical machine his whole life. Like most professional athletes, if all of his training took place on the couch and all he ate was mama’s home cooking he would probably still be a better athlete than most people that do the most ‘correct’ training program around.
[/quote]
I read article by him and he said he was fairly soft in the early years of College and that is when he started training obsessively every single day.
[quote]OBoile wrote:
So you expect this guy to “focus more on his own needs” while still doing a 6-day split? So, weights 6 times a week, cardio/games 2-3 times, sprints 2-3 times plus practice and skill work? That doesn’t seem like too much to you? You don’t think that his (or any other athlete’s) time would be better spent if he could cut the lifting to 3 or 4 days per week?
Also, is it possible to do a 6-day split without using a bunch of isolation exercises? You know, the ones that every author here says don’t help with improving sports performance (that whole, “athletes train movements, bodybuilders train muscles” idea)?
The ones that don’t work your CNS. I have yet to see an article on this site that recomends and “arms day” for basketball players (or any athlete for that matter).
Did it ever occur to you that it has been almost 10 years since Malone was a top player and that maybe… just maybe advances in training athletes have been made since then?
Did it occur to you that perhaps Malone was successful despite his training rather than because of it? Or maybe it was because he was one of the few players actually doing any weight work at the time? I will grant you that training like a body builder is better than not training at all.
Bodybuilders have a goal: bigger muscles and good definition
Athletes have a different goal: improve performance at a given activity
While there is a correlation, these goals are not the same. Why then would you expect athletes and bodybuilders to train the same way?[/quote]
You make some excellent points. Clearly you have played a high level sport or just simply understand the demands.
Wait,
Was that a ‘funny’? Next time, write, “Laugh here:” so I’ll know what to do.
[quote]Iron Beast wrote:
It is better than nothing. I’ll admit only that. But there are so many better programs than a typical bodybuilding program. I’d follow Paul Chek before I followed Ronnie Coleman for sport specific training.[/quote]
Who has recommended that someone needs to train like Ronnie Coleman? If you want to stay at that level, however, I doubt you would last very long even following Ronnie around and removing his weights for him.
If you are spending an hour training just your arms, then you not only don’t know what you are doing, but you are NOT training like most of the people who even use that term “bodybuilder”.
It would take me 30min and that is if I took long breaks between sets. I also fail to see how an athlete that did that once a week or once every two weeks is holding back progress or preventing them from training every other body part including every ‘compound exercise’ known to God and man.
Your concept of “split training” (including your hour plus just for training arms) shows you have a very different concept of training than anything I am discussing. Maybe that alone is why you can’t seem to understand what has been typed on the last three pages. Maybe you should read slower because there is no need for me to retype it.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Wait,
Okay, to make you happy. You think everyone needs to train just like most bodybuilders.
Was that a ‘funny’? Next time, write, “Laugh here:” so I’ll know what to do.
[/quote]
Mate, I couldn’t care less whether you got a laugh or not.
Yeah, you know me and my stats. Getting into personal little barbs is something I was hoping to steer clear of. You just assume you know so much but as far as I can tell, you’re only a guy who trains and eats like a bodybuilder yet has never competed.
By the way, Ronnie was just an example. Every Bodybuilder I know who has competed (And I know many) are generally good at one thing. Putting on size. They have poor lifting stats compared to a decent Power Lifter or Athlete. Most of them would clock tragic 40 times, poor verticals and I don’t even want to think how they might be able to compete aerobically.
Following their style of program is madness compared to something like WSFSB. I’ll admit it is better than nothing, but if you’re going to spend time in the weights room. Make it count.
Come on. Every successful bodybuilder I know would at least spend an hour on the arms a week. I’m simply saying, that there are better ways to spend your time in the gym than following a typical bodybuilding split.
[quote]
Your concept of “split training” (including your hour plus just for training arms) shows you have a very different concept of training than anything I am discussing. Maybe that alone is why you can’t seem to understand what has been typed on the last three pages. Maybe you should read slower because there is no need for me to retype it.[/quote]
Do me a favour. Go test your 40y dash and vertical. I’d be very interested how a devoted bodybuilder stacks up.
I feel I have a decent understanding of the split program. I have friends and coworkers that are natural bodybuilders who competed local contests through to Mr Universe.
[quote]Iron Beast wrote:
Yeah, you know me and my stats. Getting into personal little barbs is something I was hoping to steer clear of. You just assume you know so much but as far as I can tell, you’re only a guy who trains and eats like a bodybuilder yet has never competed.[/quote]
Only? Like I need to be involved in anything more? I didn’t go to school to become an athlete.
[quote]
By the way, Ronnie was just an example. Every Bodybuilder I know who has competed (And I know many) are generally good at one thing. Putting on size. They have poor lifting stats compared to a decent Power Lifter or Athlete. Most of them would clock tragic 40 times, poor verticals and I don’t even want to think how they might be able to compete aerobically.[/quote]
Could their “poor 40 times” have something to do with THEM NOT TRAINING TO REDUCE THEIR 40 TIMES? Do you think they would have poor 40 times IF THEY TRAINED TO REDUCE THEIR 40 TIMES? That is like saying baseball players sure do suck at Olympic sprinting.
[quote]
Following their style of program is madness compared to something like WSFSB. I’ll admit it is better than nothing, but if you’re going to spend time in the weights room. Make it count.[/quote]
I’m sorry, but you must be on something to think that anyone here is writing that someone should train JUST LIKE a competing bodybuilder to do well at their sport. You would have to be one blind and foolish human to ignore that it has been written several times over the last few pages that sport specific training is needed.
You would have to be on something to continue typing as if this hasn’t been repeated so many times that it makes your attempt to ignore it funny as all hell.
[quote]
Come on. Every successful bodybuilder I know would at least spend an hour on the arms a week. I’m simply saying, that there are better ways to spend your time in the gym than following a typical bodybuilding split.[/quote]
My arms aren’t small at all. I don’t spend an hour training arms. you clearly don’t know as much as you think you do if you believe it takes over an hour worth of training just to train arms. You are also ignoring genetics meaning that someone who gains size on their arms easily obviously wouldn’t need to focus on them as much.
Dear God. Go test your ability to to not come in last at a pro level bodybuilding contest. I’d be interested in seeing how you stack up.
That makes about as much sense as what you just typed. Obviously someone would want to train to reduce their 40 time if they had a goal of reducing their 40 time. To act like anyone has written anything other than that just makes you look a little slow.
So, let’s repeat for those who clearly can’t read. If someone continued to train using a split style of training WHILE CONTINUING SPORT SPECIFIC TRAINING, why would someone think they would become less athletic? If you make another post as if SPORT SPECIFIC has been left out of anything that has been written, you will simply prove what a waste discussing anything with you is.