Ditching Bodybuilding!

[Iron_Beast]

[quote]aussie486 wrote:
The OP is talking about the Australian National Basketball league, I was unlucky enough to witness 2-3 seasons training of one NBL side and their training in the weight room was a disgrace, they were lazy, sat on the benchs most of the time and yawned and talked about their night at the club.
[/quote]
I agree with you there. I’ve seen a lot of NBL and SEABL ball players train in the weight room and I am not really impressed.

some of you guys inpression of ‘‘bodybuilding’’ is very shallow, don’t be pigeon holed or having your thinking so blinkered in re to the postives in all aspects of lifting heavy shit.

Fine. In which instance would this guy improve more. Ronnie Coleman takes him under his wing for a few months and he can go train with him or he can go and work with Defranco.

Ronnie doesn’t give a fuck what his 40 time is, nor his vertical, and max lifts are probably just something of interest. You can bet your house that those things matter to Defranco.

I have respect for bodybuilding and bodybuilding programs. However, these programs have only a little place in the world of basketball.

[De_sleeplijn]

[quote]Big Show wrote:
I was focusing on my goals. I was just chosing the wrong method such as 6 day splits and isolation exercises. I was young and stupid in thinking that traditional bodybuilding would make me a better athlete.[/quote]

What a pleasure to read such wisdom in this forum at a young age. Congratulations.

[chillain]

[quote]Big Show wrote:
The result (12 months ago): I was 6-2, 230 and trying to play point. My vertical leap was shit, my 40 yard dash was slow, my 3 lifts were relatively poor. [/quote]

That’s some real nice ball-handling ability at that size. Reminds me of Anthony Mason.

Nice transition man. So are you still running point, or did they move you over to the 2?

[Professor_X]

[quote]eisenaffe wrote:
First of all thank you for your compliment and your opinion that I’m noth worthy of this discussion.

So please be so kind to indulge my responses to your questions with counterquestions.

How can somebody build that much of “unfunctional” musclemass in his upper body without gaining overall bodymass and especially in the lower body constituted of the biggest muscles in the human body?

Remember the OP said he trained like a bodybuilder. [/quote]

Are we really going back to “unfunctional” crap? I thought we had done away with most of you. Apparently, you are still alive and kicking. Why are you even discussing his lower body mass? What does that have to do with the very simple fact that he was TOO HEAVY?

[quote]
I assumed that if he was a basketballplayer, who wanted to play semiprofesional, that he wasn’t a fat slob with a beerbelly. His coach wouldn’t have said that he was too heavy if he would have been fast and had a big vertical at that bodyweight. If his coach had known how he trained and knew that his training style was responsible for his size and his low speed and vertical he’d sure have at least said “it doesn’t work so stop and try something else”.[/quote]

You are aware that most people do carry body fat on them even if they are athletes? Who is arguing that he wasn’t slow? You can be very strong and powerful and still be slow for a position on a basketball team. Do you think someone is saying something different?

[quote]
So, you know the trainig routines and diet plans of SEVERAL basketball players? Well, post them![/quote]

I know Karl Malone’s because there have been several articles over the years about his training. He doesn’t hide his interest in “bodybuilding”. I won’t be digging through years of magazines to find that routine for you, however. How about you research that yourself? In fact, better yet, take a look at the man and tell me that he doesn’t train his biceps directly at all.

[quote]

Do you think that bodybuilding makes them good at what they do? It’s not the countless hours of practice on the court. [/quote]

Uh, doofus, that is what we ARE saying. That the practice on the court is very important and that gaining strength by training like a “bodybuilder” isn’t holding many of those guys back at all. Obviously an athlete needs to train to be effective at his OWN position. However, to make blanket claims that “bodybuilding” doesn’t help in basketball is flat wrong and basic.

If bodybuilding in general builds “unfunctional” musclemass and makes them slow basketball players than it’s wrong for basketball.

I’m sorry, you are still using that word which means I just can’t take you seriously.

[Professor_X]

[quote]Iron Beast wrote:
Professor X wrote:
How do you know it was “muscle” his coach wanted him to lose?

Did I read wrong? I’m pretty sure they guy said it was 15 pounds of LBM.[/quote]

This isn’t a hard concept to understand so you must be trying hard to NOT understand it. His coach didn’t say, “lose muscle”. His coach told him to drop weight. Why would a coach tell a player that? Do you think it might just be because he was slow at that weight? If he was slow, I don’t blame “bodybuilding” I blame him for not specifically training for his sport enough to remain quick. Why would anyone look beyond that before anything else?

Because they were mostly power forwards and centers.

What is the goal of a bodybuilding program? It is primarily to put on muscle. A sport specific program will be more honed into what is actually needed in that sport. IE Improving athleticism and the specific energy requirements of that game.

The point, as if it wasn’t written in english, is that if it HURT basketball players to train that way and ruined their performance, they wouldn’t be doing it. While the OP may need to focus his training in a different direction, to blame “bodybuilding” for his coach’s concern is just stupid. Blame his lack of direct training for his sport and position. Hell, even blame him for eating enough to gain enough for his coach to tell him to lose it.

[veruvius]

I’d like to toss in here that the OP used the WS4SB program, to get in basketball shape. That is a very popular program for building your body, some might even say for body building. He just threw in some conditioning work and changed how he ate.

Nice job, mate. How did you change your eating pattern? Did you have any issues with fatigue?

[Iron_Beast]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Iron Beast wrote:
Professor X wrote:
This isn’t a hard concept to understand so you must be trying hard to NOT understand it. His coach didn’t say, “lose muscle”.
[/quote]
I think his coach must have. He lost 15 pounds of lean body mass and 5 of fat. So, I would suggest that at 230 he was in fairly good shape body composition wise. Therefore, a coach telling a big guy with lowish bodyfat (I get this from the fact that he lost 75% muscle to make the weight) is telling him to lose some of lean mass. It’s not me that is trying hard not to understand that the coach must have wanted some of the muscle mass gone.

His coach told him to drop weight. Why would a coach tell a player that? Do you think it might just be because he was slow at that weight? If he was slow, I don’t blame “bodybuilding” I blame him for not specifically training for his sport enough to remain quick. Why would anyone look beyond that before anything else?

So bodybuilding isn’t specific to basketball now?

The point, as if it wasn’t written in english, is that if it HURT basketball players to train that way and ruined their performance, they wouldn’t be doing it.

Great point. Maybe some basketballers should start competing in triathlons in the off season. It probably won’t HURT them. But then again, there would be a better more specific way to prepare for the demands of the game.

[quote]
While the OP may need to focus his training in a different direction, to blame “bodybuilding” for his coach’s concern is just stupid. Blame his lack of direct training for his sport and position. Hell, even blame him for eating enough to gain enough for his coach to tell him to lose it.[/quote]
He was 6-2 and 230. To get to that size, generally, people need to bodybuild. He did that, he said he focused on bodybuilding and I assume that’s why the coach told him to drop the weight. That weight being 75% muscle. Thankyou very much to the training that wasn’t specific to his sport.

[UtahLama]

[quote]Iron Beast wrote:
Professor X wrote:
You just admitted that SEVERAL pro basketball players trained that way…but now it is “shithouse”? Clearly Karl Malone was the worst player in the NBA.

Didn’t I say that they were either Forwards or Centers? This guy is a guard. Getting all big, bulky and musclebound is clearly not the thing to do for a guard.

No. Malone was one of the 50 greatest of all time. He surely wasn’t known for his blistering pace and other attributes a PG need to show. In my opinion, training like this for a PG is a really stupid idea.[/quote]

Big…Bulky…Musclebound.

Good Lord that is retarded.

Have you ever seen guys like Dereck Fisher(2 Guard)or LeBron (2 Guard)or Stephon Marbury (2 Guard).

These boys have SERIOUS muscle.

Muscle bound my ass, you have an antiquated view, muscle does not make you slow or unable to jump over a telephone book.

[Big_Show]

[quote]chillain wrote:
That’s some real nice ball-handling ability at that size. Reminds me of Anthony Mason.

Nice transition man. So are you still running point, or did they move you over to the 2?
[/quote]

I am moving more freely at my current weight. I am more a play making guard and the team I play in has a great 2.

[Big_Show]

[quote]veruvius wrote:
I’d like to toss in here that the OP used the WS4SB program, to get in basketball shape. That is a very popular program for building your body, some might even say for body building. He just threw in some conditioning work and changed how he ate.

Nice job, mate. How did you change your eating pattern? Did you have any issues with fatigue?[/quote]

I just ate the majority of my carbs before lunch. Protein and vegetbles only after 12pm.

Doing 100 clicks on the bike on a Saturday can help shed the weight too!

[Iron_Beast]

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Big…Bulky…Musclebound.

Good Lord that is retarded.

Have you ever seen guys like Dereck Fisher(2 Guard)or LeBron (2 Guard)or Stephon Marbury (2 Guard).

These boys have SERIOUS muscle.
[/quote]

Good job pointing out a few 2 and 3 players. The guy is a PG.

Muscle bound my ass, you have an antiquated view, muscle does not make you slow or unable to jump over a telephone book.

I say it does but that will get shot down by the masses, but a ill-advised training program will definetly. I know plenty of natural bodybuilders who aren’t really that big who have been excellent sportsman in their earlier days only to look uncoordated, slow, unathletic and etc as a result of their training.

[Professor_X]

[quote]veruvius wrote:
I’d like to toss in here that the OP used the WS4SB program, to get in basketball shape. That is a very popular program for building your body, some might even say for body building. He just threw in some conditioning work and changed how he ate.

Nice job, mate. How did you change your eating pattern? Did you have any issues with fatigue?[/quote]

Well, according to some here, he should have not made any progress towards his goal since it can be used for the dreaded “bodybuilding”.

[Iron_Beast]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Well, according to some here, he should have not made any progress towards his goal since it can be used for the dreaded “bodybuilding”.[/quote]

Westside for Skinny Bastards is a great program. I’ve used it and still do. I rate it far more highly as a performance program than a mass building program though. When I want to gain mass I do 2 a day sessions and that seems to put the size on a lot better than WSFSB.

I’ll just say that I could never dunk in all my years of fucking around with bodybuilding programs. After getting into the Westside stuff, I can dunk and can’t speak highly enough of it.

[hunterthompson]

i may be wrong on this, but it seems like the increase in cardio work may have helped more then dropping the muscle.
were you doing sprint work while training as a “bodybuilder”?
wsfsb usually causes an increase in muscle and athletic performance. they definetly aren’t mutually exclusive.

[Iron_Beast]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Well, according to some here, he should have not made any progress towards his goal since it can be used for the dreaded “bodybuilding”.[/quote]

The more I read your posts, the more I wonder what your deal is.

I train for performance and that is why I work mostly with the Westside stuff and I am very loyal to that manner of training. As I imagine you are to bodybuilding.

If somebody was competing in bodybuilding and they were using a more performance based program such as the Westside principles, I would see that as a mistake. There are plenty of other programs that will yield greater results.

I could admit that and I would know that my training is not the means for that end. Why do you have to make out bodybuilding style training is for everyone. It is a senseless argument.

[Big_Show]

[quote]hunterthompson wrote:
i may be wrong on this, but it seems like the increase in cardio work may have helped more then dropping the muscle.
[/quote]
I think dropping the weight definetly helped. I am far quicker around the court and it is less taxing to run a game out now.

were you doing sprint work while training as a “bodybuilder”?

Yep. I was training a six day split with a bit of cardio every second day and sprinting every other day.
The cardio was nothing like the 100 clicks I did on a Saturday to make the weight though.

wsfsb usually causes an increase in muscle and athletic performance. they definetly aren’t mutually exclusive.

Well I was big enough at 230 but as I said my stats were poor. Wsfsb was a God-send.

[Iron_Beast]

[quote]Big Show wrote:
Well I was big enough at 230 but as I said my stats were poor. Wsfsb was a God-send.
[/quote]

Agreed. It is an excellent program.

[Jason_B]

I played basketball in college and we lifted for it, but mostly circuit style and for explosiveness, but I loved the bodybuilding part of it and would usually go lift myself at the rec center after we got done. That is, until I got caught. My coaches were none to pleased that I was trying to gain much more muscle. At 6-5, 205 I was right about where they wanted me. They were concerned that a lot more weight, fat or muscle, would slow me down (and I was slow to start with).

In not so many words I got told to knock it off or whatever weight I was gaining would be run off with some morning runs. Morning runs were the way the made us go to class. If they found out we skipped class we had a “memory run” in the morning, which entailed running until you puked so you would remember to go to class in the future.

Needless to say I stopped my extra working out during the season. In the summers I trained how I wanted and usually gained some weight and they would run it all off of me again in the fall.

[RagingBull]

[quote]Iron Beast wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Well, according to some here, he should have not made any progress towards his goal since it can be used for the dreaded “bodybuilding”.

The more I read your posts, the more I wonder what your deal is.
[/quote]

X’s deal is that he’s overly defensive and closed minded.

When his pet topics are concerned he can be a wealth of knowlege, but when the subject isn’t his expertise he gets uptight and hostile.

[Iron_Beast]

[quote]Jason B wrote:
I played basketball in college and we lifted for it, but mostly circuit style and for explosiveness, but I loved the bodybuilding part of it and would usually go lift myself at the rec center after we got done. That is, until I got caught. My coaches were none to pleased that I was trying to gain much more muscle. At 6-5, 205 I was right about where they wanted me. They were concerned that a lot more weight, fat or muscle, would slow me down (and I was slow to start with).

In not so many words I got told to knock it off or whatever weight I was gaining would be run off with some morning runs. Morning runs were the way the made us go to class. If they found out we skipped class we had a “memory run” in the morning, which entailed running until you puked so you would remember to go to class in the future.

Needless to say I stopped my extra working out during the season. In the summers I trained how I wanted and usually gained some weight and they would run it all off of me again in the fall.
[/quote]

Interesting story. 6-5 and 205 is pretty damned skinny though. At that height you would be playing 3 or 4 wouldn’t you? I would say that a bit of extra weight wouldn’t be a bad thing in your case.

The OP though was fairly sizeable at 6-2 and 230.