Fighting Irish was noting the same thing I was, that claiming “bodybuilding” held back your progress is one strange way of looking at this. If there are basketball players who are famous and considered near the top of their sport who trained like ‘bodybuilders’, how can someone claim “bodybuilding” held them back? If he was too heavy, which it seems like his coach noted, then he was too heavy. Why blame “bodybuilding” for him eating too much and getting too heavy to play his position well?
Is anyone taking the stance that they know for sure that simply dropping the extra weight and focusing more on what was needed for his position isn’t what he needed?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Fighting Irish was noting the same thing I was, that claiming “bodybuilding” held back your progress is one strange way of looking at this.
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Hence the flaming that may come. He posted Ditching Bodybuilding as his title and that sort of thing is flamable on this site.
You’re probably going to give me plenty of Centers and Power Forward references. They tend to need a great deal of size. Ben Wallace, Karl Malone and Alonzo Mourning have been big advocates of bodybuilding style training.
He said he lost probably 15 pounds of LBM. That says to me he was a fair sized unit at 230lbs with not too much fat. The way you have described it is as though he was carrying too much fat.
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Is anyone taking the stance that they know for sure that simply dropping the extra weight and focusing more on what was needed for his position isn’t what he needed?[/quote]
He said it pretty simply. He lost the weight, trained like an athlete and made the team.
You’re probably going to give me plenty of Centers and Power Forward references. They tend to need a great deal of size. Ben Wallace, Karl Malone and Alonzo Mourning have been big advocates of bodybuilding style training.[/quote]
Well, NOW I don’t have to mention them.
[quote]
He said he lost probably 15 pounds of LBM. That says to me he was a fair sized unit at 230lbs with not too much fat. The way you have described it is as though he was carrying too much fat.[/quote]
Dude, I weigh more than a lot of people on this board. Most of it (despite the hamburgers) is muscle. I know I would have to drop weight to play most sports aside from football. To his coach, he was too heavy. It doesn’t matter whether that was all lean body mass or not. Maybe he was just slower. None of us will know because we weren’t there. However, we do know that fat alone isn’t all that would need to be lost if someone was truly carrying a great deal of size on them and it wasn’t sport specific.
You missed the point. If all he needed to do was lose weight, then it had NOTHING to do with bodybuilding.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Well, NOW I don’t have to mention them.
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This guy was a guard. Let me know a few point guards who were big into the bodybuilding.
So how did he get that way? Bodybuilding maybe.
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You missed the point. If all he needed to do was lose weight, then it had NOTHING to do with bodybuilding.[/quote]
I think it has everything to do with bodybuilding. He chose to do a program where he put on size that hindered his performance. By going for a more sport specific program, he was able to lose the weight and make the team.
I think it has everything to do with bodybuilding. He chose to do a program where he put on size that hindered his performance. By going for a more sport specific program, he was able to lose the weight and make the team.
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LOL. Because in bodybuilding, the muscle just hops on you before you realize it and has NOTHING to do with food intake and the desire to get bigger.
In my honest opinion, most athletes should probably check with their coach BEFORE they make drastic changes physically regardless of how they train. Also, if “sport specific training” makes everyone lose muscle mass, it isn’t that good at all. He had to adjust his caloric intake to facilitate a loss as weight doesn’t just magically disappear because you quit doing “split training”. That means that he didn’t just lose weight because of his style of training. he lost weight because he quit eating as much…something he could have done while training THE SAME. We will never know if he couldn’t have made the same progress by simply dropping weight. The question is, will you admit that?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
LOL. Because in bodybuilding, the muscle just hops on you before you realize it and has NOTHING to do with food intake and the desire to get bigger.
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Now you’re getting all sciency on me. Various training methods are designed for size, and the guy was talking about training like a bodybuilder so I put the 2 and 2 together. You’ll say I came up with 3 but most a bodybuilding program is not really that conducive to a point guard.
For sure. There are plenty of athletes who have bulked up over the off season only to slow down and have to lose the added muscle.
His program is simply Westside with a few mods. Going over what he wrote I’d tip the sport specific stuff helped him make the team.
Admit what? I’ve almost forgot what and why we are debating. I’ll admit that bodybuilding is shithouse for anything but bodybuilding and athletes that have suffered some atrophy over the season. If I was a pro athlete I’d focus on the things that made me better as an athlete. As a point, I’d be working on speed, agility, quickness, strength, power and most of all basketball skills.
We all know that too much unfunctional muscle will hinder sports performance and if this guy was silly enough to go down that road to begin with, he deserves the results he initially got.
Good on him for coming to his senses though. PM me if you’d like any extra advice.
We all know that too much unfunctional muscle will hinder sports performance and if this guy was silly enough to go down that road to begin with, he deserves the results he initially got.
Good on him for coming to his senses though. PM me if you’d like any extra advice.[/quote]
[quote]Iron Beast wrote:
Admit what? I’ve almost forgot what and why we are debating. I’ll admit that bodybuilding is shithouse for anything but bodybuilding and athletes that have suffered some atrophy over the season. If I was a pro athlete I’d focus on the things that made me better as an athlete. As a point, I’d be working on speed, agility, quickness, strength, power and most of all basketball skills.
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You just admitted that SEVERAL pro basketball players trained that way…but now it is “shithouse”? Clearly Karl Malone was the worst player in the NBA.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
You just admitted that SEVERAL pro basketball players trained that way…but now it is “shithouse”? Clearly Karl Malone was the worst player in the NBA.[/quote]
Quit trying so hard to keep a wrong standpoint.
If his 20lbs of extra musclemass would have been built for pure power exertion, don’t you think he wouldn’t have had to drop it?
If for example he built his legs by doing high rep squat with moderate weight or worse with legpresses instead of low rep heavy squats, squat jumps, lunges e.t.c. using the same caloric intake and would have reached superficialy observed the same hypertrophy (thigh circumference)he would have built completely different musclefibers for different tasks.
[quote]eisenaffe wrote:
Professor X wrote:
You just admitted that SEVERAL pro basketball players trained that way…but now it is “shithouse”? Clearly Karl Malone was the worst player in the NBA.
Quit trying so hard to keep a wrong standpoint.
If his 20lbs of extra musclemass would have been built for pure power exertion, don’t you think he wouldn’t have had to drop it?
If for example he built his legs by doing high rep squat with moderate weight or worse with legpresses instead of low rep heavy squats, squat jumps, lunges e.t.c. using the same caloric intake and would have reached superficialy observed the same hypertrophy (thigh circumference)he would have built completely different musclefibers for different tasks.
Am I wrong or completely wrong?
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You are completely wrong and pretty stupid for jumping into this and telling me my “standpoint” (whatever that is) is wrong. If he had 15-20 extra pounds of mass on his traps, lats and pectorals and he didn’t play a position that allowed the use of it, he would be carrying weight that his position wouldn’t need. Why would you only use “legs” in your example as if that is the only place he had muscle?
How do you know it was “muscle” his coach wanted him to lose? His caoch didn’t say, “stop training like a bodybuilder”. He told him to DROP WEIGHT. That’s about as common a demand as you can get in nearly any sport if you are carrying too much weight to play your position.
If SEVERAL pro basketball players who are good at what they do train like “bodybuilders”, how can someone claim that training like a “bodybuilder” is somehow so wrong for the sport of basketball?
Just like any other sport, you need to be built for the position you play. If he was simply too slow at a heavier weight, then he would need to drop weight. That doesn’t mean “bodybuilding” is wrong for basketball. It means this one guy should have focused more on what he alone needed in his very own position on his team and not a thing more.
[quote]eisenaffe wrote:
Professor X wrote:
You just admitted that SEVERAL pro basketball players trained that way…but now it is “shithouse”? Clearly Karl Malone was the worst player in the NBA.
Quit trying so hard to keep a wrong standpoint.
If his 20lbs of extra musclemass would have been built for pure power exertion, don’t you think he wouldn’t have had to drop it?
If for example he built his legs by doing high rep squat with moderate weight or worse with legpresses instead of low rep heavy squats, squat jumps, lunges e.t.c. using the same caloric intake and would have reached superficialy observed the same hypertrophy (thigh circumference)he would have built completely different musclefibers for different tasks.
Am I wrong or completely wrong?
[/quote]
This sounds right to me. Sets of 15 rep squats (or even worse, leg pres, or even worse leg extensions) won’t do very much for someone hoping to increase their power. I don’t think you would find any author here saying that athletes should train like bodybuilders. That line of thinking is about 15 years out of date.
You are completely wrong and pretty stupid for jumping into this and telling me my “standpoint” (whatever that is) is wrong. If he had 15-20 extra pounds of mass on his traps, lats and pectorals and he didn’t play a position that allowed the use of it, he would be carrying weight that his position wouldn’t need. Why would you only use “legs” in your example as if that is the only place he had muscle? [/quote]
First of all thank you for your compliment and your opinion that I’m noth worthy of this discussion.
So please be so kind to indulge my responses to your questions with counterquestions.
How can somebody build that much of “unfunctional” musclemass in his upper body without gaining overall bodymass and especially in the lower body constituted of the biggest muscles in the human body?
Remember the OP said he trained like a bodybuilder.
I assumed that if he was a basketballplayer, who wanted to play semiprofesional, that he wasn’t a fat slob with a beerbelly. His coach wouldn’t have said that he was too heavy if he would have been fast and had a big vertical at that bodyweight. If his coach had known how he trained and knew that his training style was responsible for his size and his low speed and vertical he’d sure have at least said “it doesn’t work so stop and try something else”.
So, you know the trainig routines and diet plans of SEVERAL basketball players? Well, post them!
Do you think that bodybuilding makes them good at what they do? It’s not the countless hours of practice on the court.
If bodybuilding in general builds “unfunctional” musclemass and makes them slow basketball players than it’s wrong for basketball.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
You just admitted that SEVERAL pro basketball players trained that way…but now it is “shithouse”? Clearly Karl Malone was the worst player in the NBA.[/quote]
Didn’t I say that they were either Forwards or Centers? This guy is a guard. Getting all big, bulky and musclebound is clearly not the thing to do for a guard.
No. Malone was one of the 50 greatest of all time. He surely wasn’t known for his blistering pace and other attributes a PG need to show. In my opinion, training like this for a PG is a really stupid idea.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
How do you know it was “muscle” his coach wanted him to lose?
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Did I read wrong? I’m pretty sure they guy said it was 15 pounds of LBM.
Because they were mostly power forwards and centers.
What is the goal of a bodybuilding program? It is primarily to put on muscle. A sport specific program will be more honed into what is actually needed in that sport. IE Improving athleticism and the specific energy requirements of that game.
So, you know the trainig routines and diet plans of SEVERAL basketball players? Well, post them!
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The OP is talking about the Australian National Basketball league, I was unlucky enough to witness 2-3 seasons training of one NBL side and their training in the weight room was a disgrace, they were lazy, sat on the benchs most of the time and yawned and talked about their night at the club.
The hardest trainer and best player was a man called CJ Bruton, who at this stage was their coach as well, he could only do so much, he was a man i respected, the rest were a lazy bunch of ''professional athletes''
The OP sounds as if he is working hard and will do well, hopefully he will continue to educate himself in re to strength training and the benefits from all the discplines of lifting heavy shit, some of you guys inpression of ''bodybuilding'' is very shallow, don't be pigeon holed or having your thinking so blinkered in re to the postives in all aspects of lifting heavy shit.
When the average joe states to me, why do you ''bodybuild'', i reply that everyone is a ''bodybuilder'' it's just some people do not realise that they are. For further confirmation read a little bit more of the history of bodybuilding, some of the guys were and are great athletes as well, like it or not, drugs have changed things and training to a considerable extent.
Again to the OP, train hard in all aspects of your training and keep a open mind and reap the benefits.
