Scott Abel’s article says get as close to bent over and our upper body perpendicular to the ground, as you can
he even points out yates row, while yates back was great, wasn’t a great movement
[quote]deanosumo wrote:
47.53489 degrees. Exactly. Otherwise the exercise does nothing. If you get the angle wrong the stress moves from your bicepazoids to your gluticept. Which is bad!! [/quote]
LOL you forgot the Mirrorimus and the Pectoids, don’t you knoy anythig?
What if your purpose for doing bent over rows isn’t to develop your lats, but to up your bench and deadlift (i.e. putting more focus on the upper back and traps)? What angle do you folks prefer? I like around 45 myself, as this seems to feel more like the setup for my bench and the midway point of my deadlift, and I can use around the same weight as I bench (which Dave Tate said in an old EFS article is the weight that you should use). I also have lower back problems, though, and so I’m hesitant to go all the way. Just curious as to opinions, as most of the discussion seems to be strictly about performing rows as a bodybuilding exercise (which, considering that this IS the “Bodybuilding” forum, makes perfect sense).
[quote]Shadowzz4 wrote:
Hagar wrote:
Shadowzz4 wrote:
If you are doing a 45 degree bent over row, you arent doing a 45 degree bent over row, because you are never over as far as you think you are.
Maybe for you bub but not for me. My gym has mirrors and from working as a carpenter much of life, I know my angles better than most people.
Either way I do these for upper back development and thickness and the way I do them, which is how many high level bodybuilders do them, has worked great for me.
Your lazy. Many high level bodybuilders do smith machine deadlifts and stick needles and their ass. Have fun.
[/quote]
Don’t know how you came to that conclusion??
I’ve build a big strong back over the years without the use of steroids so I know what works for me. I use cable rows to work my lats at that angle instead of BB rows anyways.
[quote]Nate Dogg wrote:
Find the angle that works best for you. I personally prefer more of a 90 degree angle.
[center][photo]236[/photo][/center][/quote]
Dude!! At first glance, that pic makes you look like some sort of crazy pinhead. We’d have to start calling you Zippy.
Give me slight above the 90-degree mark too (torso at about a 5-degree abgle with the floor). Contrary to something someone said, either a slight arch of the back or a flat back would be best.
Whatever it is, if it doesn’t stay almost exactly the same throughout the movement, then you’re a big, fat cheater.
[quote]Meni69 wrote:
scott abel’s article says get as close to bent over and our upper body perpendicular to the ground, as you can
he even points out yates row, while yates back was great, wasn’t a great movement[/quote]
Agreed. The Yates row generally sucks:
- Too easy to cheating; and
- A reduced ROM.
Let me clarify your description, though. If you are totally ‘bent over’ then your upper body would be parallel to the ground, not perpendicular.
Caveat: If you have moderate to severe lower back issues, then bent-over rows may not be for you in any form. Try one-arm rows, cable rows, or chest-supported rows (horizontal machine rows) are for you.
[quote]rsg wrote:
Nate Dogg wrote:
Find the angle that works best for you. I personally prefer more of a 90 degree angle.
[center][photo]236[/photo][/center]
150lbs of pure beast![/quote]
i’ve seen a lot of people wearing these shoes recently while lifting, is there a reason for this?
To the people knocking the 45 degree Bent Over Row or the Yates Row (same thing), I think you are ignoring a potentially great exercise. As I see it is has the following benefits:
It allows for a large amount of weight to be used, it will probably be your strongest back exercise. This is a good thing, not a bad thing. As Tate and others have mentioned, a good way to see if your upper body pull and push are in balance is if your 45 degree row is basically even with your bench press.
It does not put much stress on the lower back unlike the 90 degree row (which is also excellent). If you are deadlifting heavy and doing heavy 90 degree rows (and squatting heavy) it can be hard to place those in a routine without overstressing your lower back.
The movement you are producing is shoulder extension which is a primary movement of the lats so don’t think the lats are not working in this exercise, they are.
You can do the lift supinated or pronated, supinated places a good deal of emphasis on the biceps much like a chin-up. The 90 degree is almost always pronated.
It is easier to cheat under control with the 45 degree row. This is also not bad. There is no spot on a bent over row (at any angle) so you can spot yourself by using your legs with a little leg kick. On a 90 degree row this can tax the lower back too much. Watch Pumping Iron again or almost any lifting video of someone going heavy, a little body english to lift more weight and place more emphasis on the target muscle is a good idea assuming it is within reason.
I agree the ROM is not as good as a 90 degree row but it is not that bad if you are truly bent over to 45 degrees, it should be about the length of your thighs and it is probably similar to the bench press stroke which no one seems to complain about. Again a shorter ROM equals more weight which is good, not bad.
Getting good at this exercise will help you perform most other back exercises because they will all seem relatively light compared to this one since the weights are heavy. If you can do 315 at a 45 degree angle, 225 won’t seem so bad at a 90 degree angle.
This exercise was a staple for both Dorian Yates and Ronnie Coleman (among others) which should say something.
I agree you can stand too upright on this exercise and if you cheat too much you can take away emphasis from what you are trying to work, but that is the case with basically any exercise. If you decide the 45 degree bent over row doesn’t work for you, that is fine, but to dismiss it as a non productive exercise is, in my opinion, not giving it its due.
I go as horizontal as I can. The problem is…it’s hard to balance yourself at the horizontal position with heavy weights(over half my bodyweight). I’m starting to do more t-bar rows because of this.
I’m a 45 degree guy myself but regard this as the highest BB rows should be done at.
Abel said the “Yates row” (yeah right, like Yates invented it) sucks for lats, which I thought was silly anyway. I don’t do that for lats, I do pullups for lats…duh. It’s good for traps.
Personally I go anywhere from 85 degrees to about 20. I did the 20 degree BB rows as part of Perfect 10 for my traps, and they worked better than upright rows.
Well the “Yates Row” is a popular name just like the “Scott Curl” is. Larry Scott didn’t invent it, but his amazing biceps sure did more to popularize it then anyone else at the time, just like Dorian’s freaky back size.
[quote]Jacked Diesel wrote:
rsg wrote:
Nate Dogg wrote:
Find the angle that works best for you. I personally prefer more of a 90 degree angle.
[center][photo]236[/photo][/center]
150lbs of pure beast!
i’ve seen a lot of people wearing these shoes recently while lifting, is there a reason for this?[/quote]
Yeah, converse are the best for lifting. They have a flat and firm sole. Most athletic shoes have a squishy sole with a raised heel. The squishy sole sucks period, and the raised heel sucks if you are doing deadlifts, box squats, or other hip-dominant lifts. Olympic shoes have a raised heel to allow a greater depth in the squat, but the sole is also very firm.
Converse also allow you to lace them very tightly which makes a huge difference when you are squatting with near max loads. And, the rubber sole is mega-grippy.
Plus, they look cool.
[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:
To the people knocking the 45 degree Bent Over Row or the Yates Row (same thing), I think you are ignoring a potentially great exercise. As I see it is has the following benefits:
It allows for a large amount of weight to be used, it will probably be your strongest back exercise. This is a good thing, not a bad thing. As Tate and others have mentioned, a good way to see if your upper body pull and push are in balance is if your 45 degree row is basically even with your bench press.
It does not put much stress on the lower back unlike the 90 degree row (which is also excellent). If you are deadlifting heavy and doing heavy 90 degree rows (and squatting heavy) it can be hard to place those in a routine without overstressing your lower back.
The movement you are producing is shoulder extension which is a primary movement of the lats so don’t think the lats are not working in this exercise, they are.
You can do the lift supinated or pronated, supinated places a good deal of emphasis on the biceps much like a chin-up. The 90 degree is almost always pronated.
It is easier to cheat under control with the 45 degree row. This is also not bad. There is no spot on a bent over row (at any angle) so you can spot yourself by using your legs with a little leg kick. On a 90 degree row this can tax the lower back too much. Watch Pumping Iron again or almost any lifting video of someone going heavy, a little body english to lift more weight and place more emphasis on the target muscle is a good idea assuming it is within reason.
I agree the ROM is not as good as a 90 degree row but it is not that bad if you are truly bent over to 45 degrees, it should be about the length of your thighs and it is probably similar to the bench press stroke which no one seems to complain about. Again a shorter ROM equals more weight which is good, not bad.
Getting good at this exercise will help you perform most other back exercises because they will all seem relatively light compared to this one since the weights are heavy. If you can do 315 at a 45 degree angle, 225 won’t seem so bad at a 90 degree angle.
This exercise was a staple for both Dorian Yates and Ronnie Coleman (among others) which should say something.
I agree you can stand too upright on this exercise and if you cheat too much you can take away emphasis from what you are trying to work, but that is the case with basically any exercise. If you decide the 45 degree bent over row doesn’t work for you, that is fine, but to dismiss it as a non productive exercise is, in my opinion, not giving it its due. [/quote]
VERY GOOD POINTS! Dismissing the 45 degree row as “lazy, sloppy, and/or unproductive” is like dismissing rack pulls. Rack pulls are a shortened ROM deadlift used for specific purposes, just like 45 degree rows are used for specific purposes (upper back, traps, and bringing up your bench). And when it comes to training exclusively your lats, as someone else pointed out, chins and pulls-ups (weighted especially) are far superior to rows, anyway.
This has become another one of those brilliant T-Nation “you do things differently than I do and are therefore wrong because I am insecure about myself and feel the need to hide on an internet forum and attack others to bring up my self-esteem” threads.
[quote]Fabius Cunctator wrote:
Jacked Diesel wrote:
rsg wrote:
Nate Dogg wrote:
Find the angle that works best for you. I personally prefer more of a 90 degree angle.
[center][photo]236[/photo][/center]
150lbs of pure beast!
i’ve seen a lot of people wearing these shoes recently while lifting, is there a reason for this?
Yeah, converse are the best for lifting. They have a flat and firm sole. Most athletic shoes have a squishy sole with a raised heel. The squishy sole sucks period, and the raised heel sucks if you are doing deadlifts, box squats, or other hip-dominant lifts. Olympic shoes have a raised heel to allow a greater depth in the squat, but the sole is also very firm.
Converse also allow you to lace them very tightly which makes a huge difference when you are squatting with near max loads. And, the rubber sole is mega-grippy.
Plus, they look cool.[/quote]
Adidas Superstars are quite as good.
[quote]Fenris wrote:
Tim Henriques wrote:
To the people knocking the 45 degree Bent Over Row or the Yates Row (same thing), I think you are ignoring a potentially great exercise. As I see it is has the following benefits:
It allows for a large amount of weight to be used, it will probably be your strongest back exercise. This is a good thing, not a bad thing. As Tate and others have mentioned, a good way to see if your upper body pull and push are in balance is if your 45 degree row is basically even with your bench press.
It does not put much stress on the lower back unlike the 90 degree row (which is also excellent). If you are deadlifting heavy and doing heavy 90 degree rows (and squatting heavy) it can be hard to place those in a routine without overstressing your lower back.
The movement you are producing is shoulder extension which is a primary movement of the lats so don’t think the lats are not working in this exercise, they are.
You can do the lift supinated or pronated, supinated places a good deal of emphasis on the biceps much like a chin-up. The 90 degree is almost always pronated.
It is easier to cheat under control with the 45 degree row. This is also not bad. There is no spot on a bent over row (at any angle) so you can spot yourself by using your legs with a little leg kick. On a 90 degree row this can tax the lower back too much. Watch Pumping Iron again or almost any lifting video of someone going heavy, a little body english to lift more weight and place more emphasis on the target muscle is a good idea assuming it is within reason.
I agree the ROM is not as good as a 90 degree row but it is not that bad if you are truly bent over to 45 degrees, it should be about the length of your thighs and it is probably similar to the bench press stroke which no one seems to complain about. Again a shorter ROM equals more weight which is good, not bad.
Getting good at this exercise will help you perform most other back exercises because they will all seem relatively light compared to this one since the weights are heavy. If you can do 315 at a 45 degree angle, 225 won’t seem so bad at a 90 degree angle.
This exercise was a staple for both Dorian Yates and Ronnie Coleman (among others) which should say something.
I agree you can stand too upright on this exercise and if you cheat too much you can take away emphasis from what you are trying to work, but that is the case with basically any exercise. If you decide the 45 degree bent over row doesn’t work for you, that is fine, but to dismiss it as a non productive exercise is, in my opinion, not giving it its due.
VERY GOOD POINTS! Dismissing the 45 degree row as “lazy, sloppy, and/or unproductive” is like dismissing rack pulls. Rack pulls are a shortened ROM deadlift used for specific purposes, just like 45 degree rows are used for specific purposes (upper back, traps, and bringing up your bench). And when it comes to training exclusively your lats, as someone else pointed out, chins and pulls-ups (weighted especially) are far superior to rows, anyway.
This has become another one of those brilliant T-Nation “you do things differently than I do and are therefore wrong because I am insecure about myself and feel the need to hide on an internet forum and attack others to bring up my self-esteem” threads.[/quote]
The problem is, that many people would say they do bent over rows when it is a 45 degree row. Of course their is nothing wrong with rack pulls, but if someone says0. yea I just deadlifted 720 for 10 reps, come to find out its a high rack pull, you would tell them, no you cocky shit, you are not half as strong as you think, your doing a different exercise.
The name rack pull describes the exercise you are trying to do. When people call what is a 45 degree row a bent over row, you cant tell whether they are just being lazy and cheating, using what would be terrible form if a bent over row was intended OR they actually think that is the correct form for a bent over row because they have seen video’s and pictures of everyone calling their 45 degree row a bent over row and they think they are actually the same exercise.
It gets confusing when you hear people using weights that just do not sound right for a bent row. It would just help from a confusion standpoint if there was a well-known difference between the two. Especially with this exercise which is probably the easiest exercise to cheat.
They really are 2 different rows. I wish there was 2 names for them. The 90 degree version is sometimes called Pendlay Rows, but Marc Rippetoe pointed out that Glen Pendlay didn’t invent them. I think he just wants an exercise named after him.
How about calling the 45 degree version a bent shrug row thingy?
Why does it matter what other people say they use for bent over rows?
[quote]Scott M wrote:
Why does it matter what other people say they use for bent over rows?
[/quote]
no shit! Or for that matter what they call it.
Who cares what X and Y do, worry about what you YOURSELF can do and if whatever you choose to call it is helping you towards your goal, whatever that may be.
[quote] Matt wrote:
Scott M wrote:
Why does it matter what other people say they use for bent over rows?
no shit! Or for that matter what they call it.
Who cares what X and Y do, worry about what you YOURSELF can do and if whatever you choose to call it is helping you towards your goal, whatever that may be. [/quote]
I care. Not in a “I’m better than X” way which I suspect you’re hinting at, which would indeed be egotistical, but in a “X’s performance gives me something to aspire to” way. So if X can Dorian Row 315x10, and I admire his physique and strength, maybe my Dorian Row should get closer to that. We often use others to judge our own progress in many areas of life, why should lifting be different?
But aside from that, it’s of great importance that we at least have our terminology straight. If one of the T-Nation coaches prescribes a certain routine, you had better know exactly which exercise they mean. And then when you tell a friend about it, they need to know what you mean, without needing you to demonstrate every exercise.