Convincing Meatheads to Come Off the Juice

Off Topic
101

On the chance BF actually wants and may listen to advice that is practical and useful:

The best advice that has been given on this thread, besides that the original goals were completely wrong-headed, is that the commercial reality for personal trainers is that different invididual PT’s are able to attract different potential clients.

The productive thing to do is to concentrate on those sorts of clients that one CAN attract.

While it may be imperfect of human beings to judge the sort and quality of training advice they’d be getting from eyeballing the trainer or other sort of physique adviser, it’s what people do.

There are rare exceptions. For example Dan Duchaine was nothing to look at in his later years, but was considered a pre-eminent steroid guru. Another person, a personal friend, also had somewhat of a reputation as a steroid guru and was somewhat famous for a diet he came up with but did not look as though he trained or had diet under control at all. However those are EXCEPTIONS. Cases following the rule are exceedingly more prevalent than the exceptions. (And both these really did know a great deal about steroids.)

You’re a big, muscular, but sloppy fat guy? Look to attract male powerlifters or guys just interested in getting hyooge. You also have a chance with those seriously interested in bodybuilding, but may be outcompeted by the next category:

You’re a big and muscular and reasonably lean man? You could get the above and are also best positioned to get those seriously interested in bodybuilding.

You look like a cover model for Men’s Health? You’ll do very well with the clientele that wants to look like that or want to get in that direction.

You’re an unmuscular fat slob of either sex? Doesn’t matter how much you know, you won’t do well.

You’re a woman of appearance similar to BF’s original avatar?

You have the potential to do extremely well with most women.

But little potential to do well with men interested in being really big and strong.

The advice that you should focus on the market that you can actually reach was exceedingly practical and true.

As a guess, if you want to market nutritional consulting services to men working to get big or generally working to do that but having periods of wishing to cut up, but you have no track record in that area, the best way may be to see if other PT’s who train these clients but don’t offer nutritional advice may be willing to steer them your way for that service. However, it may well be the case that you have a ton to learn before being actually useful in that area, as formal education is unlikely to have been too accurate for these needs.

102

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
beautifulfreak wrote:
I dont have a chart hun, but as long as you are choosing your foods in relation to your goals you’ll get what you want out of your choices. Do you disagree with the statement that “3500 calories of ice-cream, pizza, chips and obviously won?t have the same effect as 3500 calories of clean-eatin?.” ?

Dave Tate ate 10,000 calories of ice cream, pizza, and chips a day. Go tell him he doesn’t know what he’s doing.

You are aware of the term bulking right?[/quote]

Actually this was when he looked like shit (was ABSOLUTELY strong but looked horrible) and when he called DR.J to straighten up his diet. (thats just FYI; I dont intend in enter this pointless discussion)

103

[quote]Player wrote:
waylanderxx wrote:
beautifulfreak wrote:
I dont have a chart hun, but as long as you are choosing your foods in relation to your goals you’ll get what you want out of your choices. Do you disagree with the statement that “3500 calories of ice-cream, pizza, chips and obviously won?t have the same effect as 3500 calories of clean-eatin?.” ?

Dave Tate ate 10,000 calories of ice cream, pizza, and chips a day. Go tell him he doesn’t know what he’s doing.

You are aware of the term bulking right?

Actually this was when he looked like shit (was ABSOLUTELY strong but looked horrible) and when he called DR.J to straighten up his diet. (thats just FYI; I dont intend in enter this pointless discussion)[/quote]

He had been doing it his whole life up until that point, and hes in his 40’s now. My point is that he is strong as a mofo, built a shit ton of muscle and when he decided to diet down he looked insane.

Nothing wrong with not eating “clean” 24/7

104

[quote]Big Aristotle wrote:
BF, why do you ASSUME that the ‘meatheads’ at your gym are using AAS? Several posters have asked you this question and you have danced around it through the entire thread. This is one of the main reasons that people have formed a negative opinion of you.

I have never ever, in any gym I have ever stepped into, seen a group of guys openly talking about their personal AAS use. I know many individuals who have chosen to use AAS, and they use a tremendous amount of discrention when it comes to when, where, and with whom they speak to about their AAS.

Since you already stated you have not spoken directly with the ‘meatheads’ in your gym about their AAS use, then how in the world do you ‘know’ what they are using and if they are even using at all? No sane user would take their gear with them to the gym, so I know you have not seen any physical evidence. Unless you spend your time eavesdropping on the members, you have no evidence to base your ASSUMPTIONS of the members’ AAS use on.

And of all the people to speak to about personal AAS use, I guarantee you that a small female PT like yourself would be one of the last people a user would choose to speak to about AAS.

Secondly, why do you ASSUME that everyone who is on AAS knows nothing about proper nutrition and training. You made this assumption several times throughout the thread and have provided any evidence to justify your claim whatsoever throughout this entire thread. This is a major pitfall in your argument against the ‘meatheads’ in your gym.

The users I have met are the most knowledgeable sources concerning training and nutrition i have yet to encounter in the real world. They are also the biggest and most developed. I would listen to their advice before any common PT.

The way you have worded your argument makes it sound as though you believe that using AAS is a magical shortcut that requires no hard work and knowledge. AAS have their time and place, and in the hands of an educated user, they can be properly and safely used to take a man’s physique to the next level.

Finally, you’re a punk:
[/quote]

Wow, I was lapping everything you were saying up until you brought the abuse back. Why is that?

Now you’re the one being contradictive. You assume, because I have no elaborated, that I have no spoken to the people themselves, so therefore have ZERO evidence as to their habits. Now, you said yourself that I’d be the LAST person they’d speak to/admit to…so wouldnt my asking prove fruitless?

Besides, as I have already been accused of being arrogant and walking up to people in the gym spouting off my assumptions and biggoted suggestions…I have subsided THAT crime by explaining that I have never, and WOULD never approach a person to preach. I came here to learn the realities so I UNDERSTOOD.

Now, FYI, the evidence I have is a close relationship with the supplier of these’ guy’s gear. And eyes in my head to observe their training splits. Good enough?

[quote]

You’re the type of person to talk shit about people behind their backs while never having the confidence nor honor to repeat your opinions to their face.[/quote]
Really? is that why I have responded to each and every person who has less than understood my intentions and tried to elaborate. If I’ve received “shit” I’d give it back upfront, but I’m generally not intentionally offensive, in an active or reactive manner, full stop.

This gym, these members ARE my business. I am trying to LEARN and UNDERSTAND. I’ve not even gone anywhere NEAR ANYone yet. So what high horse? and how am I a coward by responding to all this hate? exhasprated

105

Thanks Bill, I do agree. I have a handful of sucessful male bulkers and am eager to continue to grow this section of my client portfolio.

106

[quote]beautifulfreak wrote:
Thanks Bill, I do agree. I have a handful of sucessful male bulkers and am eager to continue to grow this section of my client portfolio.[/quote]

Ah, well very good, then this potentially gives other PT’s who are themselves not offering nutritional consulting (and thus don’t see you as a competitor for that) a reason to justify steering some of their clients your way for these services.

People relate to people that they think understand them and, yes, they think approve of them as people. It is believable to a male lifter wishing to get big that, because his trainer who is big or a fellow lifter says so and he trusts this person, a specifically recommended woman may have just the plan for him. It is, however much a failing of human nature this may be, much less likely that he will feel this way on his own.

107

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
People relate to people that they think understand them and, yes, they think approve of them as people. It is believable to a male lifter wishing to get big that, because his trainer who is big says so and he trusts this person, a specifically recommended woman may have just the plan for him. It is, however much a failing of human nature this may be, much less likely that he will feel this way on his own.
[/quote]

You’re completely right, I had a similar arrangement with a fellow PT in my last place of work (…not new to PT, you see) but I his appeal was mainly due to his mean face and shaved head - lol. I have just been thinking how am I now a fish out of water when faced with this new challenge, and came here in order to find out how to tackle the issue.

Cheers All.

BF x

108

I’m thinking you’re not seeing the entire picture. I bodybuild as well as doing other sports. Myself and others, are content on reaching our natural potential and then ripping it to the nines.

Others are not content with their natural potential. They are interested in seeing just how huge they can get. What you have to do is determine which are which. Then talk their talk, they have their goals layed out. Your job is not to change someones goals but to help them achieve them.

Study about steriod use. Learn more than they know so you can advise them not criticize them. You can choose who you want to train and go broke. Or get the knowledge you require and train anyone who wants to be trained.

109

BF,
The best advice I can give you is to jack yourself up on 'roids until your ears are ringing. Only then can you relate to your clients and give them what they want.

110

BR: you have too much patience sometimes partner.

BF: i just read through all this and i was rather offended after reading just the first few posts. why don;t you drop by our lovely cobb-webbed shawdowed evil short cut taking forum and spend some time with us.

111

[quote]beautifulfreak wrote:

Polish Rifle, do you have an abundance of resources featuring people failing to make yourself feel better? :wink: I love your av though, makes me laugh everytime. I’m afraid I wont fail.

[/quote]

Actually, I reserve said resources for those most deserving. Your thread ranks high on the list, hence the submittal.

I’m fairly certain that you are a very likeable person in the flesh. However, your determination to defend your ridiculous post lessens your credibility and is insulting to the vast majority of members on this site.

Cheers.

112

People don’t gain size on steroids without food. If they are juicing and look the part, they’ll be eating. Therefore, you fail.

113


Yeh, he sure looked like shit! 300 pounds at 18% body fat before he called “DrJ”.

Motherfucking trolls.

[quote]Player wrote:
Actually this was when he looked like shit (was ABSOLUTELY strong but looked horrible) and when he called DR.J to straighten up his diet. (thats just FYI; I dont intend in enter this pointless discussion)[/quote]

114

The guy you’re arguing with is a troll who tried to suddenly gain credibility on this site with a series of “hardcore” posts and sucking up to PX, if your read his recent posts. Pay no attention to the waste of skin.

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
He had been doing it his whole life up until that point, and hes in his 40’s now. My point is that he is strong as a mofo, built a shit ton of muscle and when he decided to diet down he looked insane.

Nothing wrong with not eating “clean” 24/7[/quote]

115

[quote]Makavali wrote:
People don’t gain size on steroids without food. If they are juicing and look the part, they’ll be eating. Therefore, you fail.[/quote]

For emphasis:

116

[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
The guy you’re arguing with is a troll who tried to suddenly gain credibility on this site with a series of “hardcore” posts and sucking up to PX, if your read his recent posts. Pay no attention to the waste of skin.

waylanderxx wrote:
He had been doing it his whole life up until that point, and hes in his 40’s now. My point is that he is strong as a mofo, built a shit ton of muscle and when he decided to diet down he looked insane.

Nothing wrong with not eating “clean” 24/7

[/quote]

haha gotcha, thanks for letting me know.

117

[quote]Game_over wrote:
BR: you have too much patience sometimes partner. [/quote]

Hmm, I guess when one can write:

and still be considered to have “too much patience,” then you know it’s a rough crowd! :slight_smile:

118

Ain’t gonna happen. Dumb is as dumb does.

119

From all of your posts, your problem is with people not eating and training how you want them to. It has nothing to do with steroids.

Why don’t you try to convince them to stop wasting all of their money on booze, and have them eat, AND stay on the juice. Imagine the progress they’d make, then.

You don’t have a problem with them juicing, you have a problem with them being retards.

It’s very similar to our problem with you being a retard.

And for the record, yes, you are fucking arrogant.

120

Ok, I stopped reading on page 3.

Unfortunately, you DO sound like an idiot when you speak sometimes. Not in all your posts, but you sound like you are vacillating between your desire to get these guys to make sure they pay attention to nutrition in addition to their drugs, and the implication that you want to change the fact that they use drugs, or how they train (eg–“traps and biceps 4x a week”). No, I don’t feel like going back and selectively quoting from you all of the instances in which I can see this happening.

You will not succeed in changing them.

Bushido has given you excellent posts, as a near Mchiro and one of our most knowledgeable steroid vets. Bill Roberts, as another extremely knowledgeable person about steroids, has a graduate degree in chemistry. They both know infinitely more than you do, by your own admittance.

In fact, until they believe you can make them look like Mariusz, Or Kevin Nee, or Magnus Samuellson, or Arnold, they will not pay attention to you no matter how you try to persuade them. You have to completely disregard your worldview and concentrate on getting them huge. Not Mens Health cover model, but BIG.

Now, because for some reason I am feeling both very peevish and very charitable, I give you the following list, which is probably going to be a complete waste:

  1. As steroid users, while gaining, they need more calories to take advantage of their sky-high levels of protein synthesis and enhanced metabolism. This is undoubtedly the reason many of them eat Mcdonalds or fast food–it’s calorie dense and it has meat. They particularly need more protein of all things while using.

sub point 1a) I am assuming these people you are talking about are NOT small people, or fraternity/college people trying to look good for the sorority womenz, but are in fact already sizeable, by our definitions. OR are seeking to get there instead of Mens Health cover model. In other words, they want to be BIG.

sub point 1b) You will not succeed in getting them to eat completely clean. Give up. There comes a point when getting that many calories in is more trouble than it’s worth by eating a completely clean diet. For instance, getting 6000 calories a day to support growth is simply close to impossible if you’re sticking to a chicken breast/green veggies/fruit kind of diet.

2)As steroid users, while cutting they can get away with a greater caloric deficit than natural trainees as long as protein intake remains elevated. This is because Steroids improve nutrient partitioning.

  1. When using steroids that cause a lot of water retention, they will have to cut carbs regardless of whether they’re bulking or cutting, IF they care about appearing fairly lean. You should find out about these drugs.

  2. when using steroids that cause zero or little water retention, they can get away with more carbs, to individual tolerance. You should find out about these drugs.

  3. When cutting they may want to use thyroid hormone modulators. It would behoove you to find out how to dose them, because I don’t think you can persuade them to give that approach up. If you do, good for you. Most likely , you’d best find out how to avoid problems by dosing properly and how to get the most out of those drugs while cutting.

  4. You HAVE to get used to the fact that they ARE GOING to take more risks than you would want. HAVE. TO. You made some sort of post on page 2 or 3 about “the ends justifying the means” or “the ends before the grind” or something. And some other posts make me think you don’t approve of taking risks with your health. Fine. They don’t care. If it means they’re going to be smaller than otherwise, they want the size and strength, first, foremost, and above all. So deal with it and help them reach their goal as healthily as you can.

  5. You don’t have the ability to tell them how to train because you’re small. Sorry, that’s how it works. Unless you can give them training tips on how to get bigger than they are. And they have to believe it will work.

  6. They might not care about body comp. there are in fact people like that in the world, and they tend to gravitate towards the “I want to squat 800 lbs” or “I want to bench a buick” or “I want to have small children run away screaming and old ladies faint when they see me walking down the street in my t-shirt and I want to have car alarms go off from the shockwaves of my foot steps”.

If they don’t care about body composition then the chances of you getting them are even closer to zero than they were before. About the only thing you can do is show them how to a) overload their muscles better b) recover better via increased calorie and protein intake and c) show them how much quicker they can gain muscle and recover from training by paying attention to nutrition.

  1. that THEY MIGHT KNOW MORE THAN YOU. Maybe. Maybe it really could be true. If they’re big, then they did something to get that way, even if it IS covered over in fat somewhat, and MAYBE it wasn’t the drugs responsible for all that.

  2. when I say “show them how to overload their muscles better” I am not talking about the “burn”. I’m talking about piling more weight, different angles, more volume, past failure kind of stuff. Simple yet important things like a)where to set your heels during rack pulls or shrugs to get the best stretch on the traps OR the best lat overload OR the best glute activation OR the best carryover to your deadlift OR the best width on your back. b) where to look and to keep your balance on shrugs to increase your trap development and avoid neck problems.

These are just examples about powerlifting applications. There are others in bodybuilding, and there are more details to learn.

sub point 10a) I get the distinct impression that while you may be fairly versed in “fitness” training, you know jack shit about getting people huge. The rules are different for better or worse. The volume is different, the intensity is different, the exercise selection is different. People who want to get huge and strong listen to Louie Simmons, Dave Tate, Christian Thibaudeau. People who want to get just huge also listen to Scott Abel.