Gone as Far as I Can Without Enhancements

Pharma / TRT
1

Hello everyone. I am new to your site and a relatively new to training and muscle building.
I have been weight training clean for the last two years and have recently noticed in the last few months that I seem not to be getting any more results from just lifting alone. My only intakes are whey protein and creatine shakes and I average about a 4000 calorie/day diet.

I am seriously considering starting in on a single or stacked oral cycle to see if it makes a difference. I am just wanting to gain more muscle SIZE and if possible more strength as well.

Since I have never taken any steroids of any kind I want to know what type and what combination
would be ideal for my needs and wants. I am looking for quick results, I guess to put my mind at ease as far as the benefit to harm factor. If I’m going to take them, I want to see real results.

In talking with some other guys at the gym and online, I have been hearing that a combo of
100mg/day Anadrol with 50mg/day Winstrol for 6 weeks will give me what I am looking for.

Does anyone have any advice regarding this or any other suggestions?? And just for future reference, I am NOT open to injections. I hear that it is more cost effective and the benefits are greater, but I do not care. I am just looking for the best possible single or combo oral cycle I can get to gain some size quickly.

Any help or comments would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!

2

Welcome Randog. A few things that are needed to help us help you. State your age, height, weight (I know a couple of these are in your profile but it will better assist the process to post them in the thread), and goals(i.e. sport specific, BBing, etc).

Post Cycle Therapy is not addressed in your post, so I am guessing you haven’t considered it. What good are you gains from gear if you can’t keep them?

Also, oral only cycles are not preferred for many reasons. I don’t understand why you are against injectables other than the fear of needles, but the Anadrol/Winstrol stack has been mentioned a number of times on this site. Use the search function and I am sure you will find some good info in previous threads.

No offense, but you look very young, and I would never put such a big picture of my face on a steroid thread (just food for thought). You have a good base from the waist up, but IMO you can make plenty of natural gains before starting your PED use.

The decision is ultimately yours. But I recommend more research on all aspects of the iron lifestyle. Best of luck.

4

Ok, I am not gonna blast you with the same rhetoric. Since BBB have already pointed out.

100mg anadrol + 50mg winstrol ED is pretty fxxking heavy for first cycle, or any cycle for that matter. I don’t think many educated people are willing to use over 1000 mg of oral steroids per week, for a first cycle.

If you absolutely have to do an oral stack as your first cycle. Please use dbol + anavar. I am happy with 45mg total with a 1:2 ratio. But judging from your level of expertise, you may need to use more to achieve the desirable effect. say up to 30mg of dbol and 60mg of anavar stacked.

5

You have nice traps and lovely eyes

x

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990×537 69 KB

No needles, yet you know injection would work best?
It puts the needle in the glute…or it gets hosed

7

Damn two years!! You should be mega swole by now. Usually if you had not made suffcient gains after 6 months of lifting you should stick yourself with steroids because at 6 months you have reached your absolute potential.

Is this for real?? And then with the Abercrombie Fall Cover shot included.
How many times is this post going to appear on these forums? I have seen one like this every month of every year that I have frequented T-Nation.

Search “breaking plateaus” on here and read advice on how to eat and train not how to juice.

8

There’s no way in hell you reached your natural limit. Try learning more about strength training and nutrition. Oh, and EAT MORE FOOD. You want to know what I had to increase my food intake to several times? 6000 calories a day. Eat more damn food and stop complaining. You have no business messing in these vets playground until you make more progress naturally.

God I’m in a shitty mood this monday.

Seriously though. If you haven’t trained seriously, consistently, and intelligently for more than 5-6 years–AND made serious progress–you don’t have any business talking about steroids. You don’t just train for 2 years and hit your natural potential. Genetic potential is one few if any people hit, and those people have typically trained for more than 8-10 years to get there. So quit whining.

9

6,000 calories???

wait wait wait… ok this guy has puny arms and a puny chest and lovely eyes… and body recomposition is certainly NOT my forte (nor is it anything more than of cursory interest) - but, 6,000 calories???

Do “weightlifters” expend that much energy to need that? At HIS size?

Correct me if i’m wrong, and i’m sure many of you will - but “naturally” your body can only utilise approx 1.5g/lb protein, the rest is pissed away. And say you take 2g/lb carbs and woteva fat - jesus christ, at his size ur still struggling to hit that many cals - and what is the point if ur body can’t even convert that to muscle mass? Not without some hormonal super physiology.

Correct me if i’m wrong here. Cos, yeah, for sure i’ve consumed 6,000 calories easy during intense training periods - but i’m talking MMA training. But for bodybuilding purposes? Like if the guy is as small as he is - he don’t need to be consuming that surely. Anything around 4,000 calories is enough for him to make slow and steady gains like he needs to. And if he does want to utilise 6,000 calories effectively, then pin yourself with juice.

This is my reasoning as i sit here. Correct me if i’m wrong.

thanx

10

[quote]WyldFlower wrote:
6,000 calories???

wait wait wait… ok this guy has puny arms and a puny chest and lovely eyes… and body recomposition is certainly NOT my forte (nor is it anything more than of cursory interest) - but, 6,000 calories???

Do “weightlifters” expend that much energy to need that? At HIS size?

Correct me if i’m wrong, and i’m sure many of you will - but “naturally” your body can only utilise approx 1.5g/lb protein, the rest is pissed away. And say you take 2g/lb carbs and woteva fat - jesus christ, at his size ur still struggling to hit that many cals - and what is the point if ur body can’t even convert that to muscle mass? Not without some hormonal super physiology.

Correct me if i’m wrong here. Cos, yeah, for sure i’ve consumed 6,000 calories easy during intense training periods - but i’m talking MMA training. But for bodybuilding purposes? Like if the guy is as small as he is - he don’t need to be consuming that surely. Anything around 4,000 calories is enough for him to make slow and steady gains like he needs to. And if he does want to utilise 6,000 calories effectively, then pin yourself with juice.

This is my reasoning as i sit here. Correct me if i’m wrong.

thanx
[/quote]

I wish you would stop posting.

It is simple math. If he doesn’t grow on 4000 calories, he needs more. If he doesn’t grow on 5000 calories, he needs more. If he doesn’t grow on 10000 calories, he needs more. Looking at his picture, I can tell he is a lean skinny guy who had a picture taken by a professional that knows how to use lighting. He is no where near his ‘genetic potential’ (I use that term loosely.) Honestly, it doesn’t bother me whether he starts using steroids today, last year, or 10 year from now. I only wish idiots like you would stop cluttering the forum.

Of course there are ‘weightlifters’ who need ridiculous amounts of calories each day. Just because you don’t train with any intensity, doesn’t mean no one else does.

Also, since you’re going to continue with the post no one wants anyways, please use a spell check or pick up an English dictionary.

I have attached a link to Firefox, it has a built in spell check:

11

DOH crazy, I feel exactly how you do. This guy wyldflower is obnoxious firstly, and secondly gives people from his social group a bad reputation. Anyways, to the OP

Look, I could blabber on all day about why you should start with a simple, single or double compound first injectable cycle. But I won’t.

The key thing here is that you need to adjust your diet and training before you decide to take these powerful and potentially harmful drugs. Plain and simple. Like someone else recommended upping your calories, try to start eating 4300-4500 calories today. Adjust your macronutrients, eat more protein and healtheir fats and reduce your carbs. If that doesn’t work, increase the carbs. Carb cycle.

6000 calories may not be how many you need to continue gaining strength and muscle mass. The key here is to do this the right way, not be one of the many people who begin using steroids before they should, or before they fully understand what they are getting themselves into.

There are a lot of horror stories you could find on here, or, if someone was nice enough to post a link you could be directed to it.

The point is, if you want to take this powerful hormones it is your choice to do so. You obviously came here for a reason, so take advantage of what you have found. Most of the people on here will give you great information, real world experience and guidance. Don’t dive into the ‘deep end’ head first with your eyes closed…

Seriously, do your nutrition and training first. After that, come back here with either a couple different options for your ‘oral only’ cycle, or seriously consider doing a proper injectable route. To do it properly, depending on what you use you might not need to take a shot more often than every 3-4 days.

12

Post your diet on the day of one your more intesive training session. Be as specific as possible. Saying you eat a ‘regular portion of chicken breast’ is not sufficient. Give us the weight (preferably) or the size and thickness of the chicken relative to your palm.

Then after you list that. Tally up the macro break down and provide that. Then give the total calories. Lying to us and yourself would only work against you.

You’re not going to get support for this without providing more information.

13

[quote]DOHCrazy wrote:
WyldFlower wrote:
6,000 calories???

wait wait wait… ok this guy has puny arms and a puny chest and lovely eyes… and body recomposition is certainly NOT my forte (nor is it anything more than of cursory interest) - but, 6,000 calories???

Do “weightlifters” expend that much energy to need that? At HIS size?

Correct me if i’m wrong, and i’m sure many of you will - but “naturally” your body can only utilise approx 1.5g/lb protein, the rest is pissed away. And say you take 2g/lb carbs and woteva fat - jesus christ, at his size ur still struggling to hit that many cals - and what is the point if ur body can’t even convert that to muscle mass? Not without some hormonal super physiology.

Correct me if i’m wrong here. Cos, yeah, for sure i’ve consumed 6,000 calories easy during intense training periods - but i’m talking MMA training. But for bodybuilding purposes? Like if the guy is as small as he is - he don’t need to be consuming that surely. Anything around 4,000 calories is enough for him to make slow and steady gains like he needs to. And if he does want to utilise 6,000 calories effectively, then pin yourself with juice.

This is my reasoning as i sit here. Correct me if i’m wrong.

thanx

I wish you would stop posting.

It is simple math. If he doesn’t grow on 4000 calories, he needs more. If he doesn’t grow on 5000 calories, he needs more. If he doesn’t grow on 10000 calories, he needs more. Looking at his picture, I can tell he is a lean skinny guy who had a picture taken by a professional that knows how to use lighting. He is no where near his ‘genetic potential’ (I use that term loosely.) Honestly, it doesn’t bother me whether he starts using steroids today, last year, or 10 year from now. I only wish idiots like you would stop cluttering the forum.

Of course there are ‘weightlifters’ who need ridiculous amounts of calories each day. Just because you don’t train with any intensity, doesn’t mean no one else does.

Also, since you’re going to continue with the post no one wants anyways, please use a spell check or pick up an English dictionary.

I have attached a link to Firefox, it has a built in spell check:

[/quote]

lol. Please don’t patronise me. I’m a qualified academian, a professional writer, as well as an international playboy puffs pipe

And, to be honest, if i wasn’t growing on 10,000 calories a day following a bodybuilding programme (lol, wtf???) i would have been injecting myself with steroids a LOOOONG time ago.

However, I am certain, as BONEZ is making inquiries, that he is not consuming between 4,000-5,000 as he needs to be, which i am sure would see him making significant growth.

14

Shit, i found myself bulking up on only 3,500 calories back in the day, and that was WITH doing heavy conditioning. I found consuming high GI foodstuffs during the peri-workout window the key here. YMMV (your-mileage-may-vary)

15

[quote]WyldFlower wrote:
Shit, i found myself bulking up on only 3,500 calories back in the day, and that was WITH doing heavy conditioning. I found consuming high GI foodstuffs during the peri-workout window the key here. YMMV (your-mileage-may-vary)[/quote]

I don’t really care to go through your original reply post line by line, so I will just simply say that I have a fast metabolism. I am the very definition of that skinny kid that posted this thread…when I started. I wasn’t as defined, or lean, but I had significantly less muscle than he does in his picture…when I started.

Do I consume 6,000 calories every day? No. But I have gone through periods in the past when I did. Do I grow on less? Yes, in the past. Yes, now, for a variety of reasons–one being a mild slowdown in metabolism. The other being I’m closer to what weight I want to be at, just not as defined or as strong. But whenever I hit a bodyweight plateau in the past I would increase the calories until I started growing. Sometimes that took periods of 5,500 to 6,000 calories a day.

No, I am not a bodybuilder in the competitive sense, nor do I want to be. I want to be a PL or strongman competitor (both preferably). But yes, BB’s can use that much energy.

You need to look up Berardi’s idea of G-Flux to get a better understanding of things…it is not a simple cycle or progression.

Finally, the notion that the body only absorbs protein at a fixed maximal rate is false. Various sicknesses, including severe stress, can alter your metabolism to the point it is nearly impossible to maintain weight, as can medications (such as high dose cortico-steroids). Further, while that study may have some factual merit it is being, and has been for a long time, overextended beyond what is warranted IMO.

The thing science never does is keep up with those at the forefront (ie the cutting edge practitioners, both coaches and trainees, who make their living from eaking out any advantage they can get over their competitors. If we have direct experiential evidence that more than 1.5 g/kg is better, makes us feel better, makes us perform better, and makes us bigger than otherwise, then the science article is necessarily flawed provided our observations were correct and there were no confounding factors. The article is not baseless per se, but it doesn’t tell the whole story.

Also, one needs to understand the difference between need to “maintain or keep from going into deficiency” and need to “perform optimally and/or grow”. One is much more demanding than the other.

Besides, I made no claim about my particular protein intake in my post either.

16

aiight, cool man, and of course its easy to generalise as i did. I just think, that by the looks of him - 6,000 calories would be a HELL OF ALOT. And consuming over 10,000 calories as suggested by someone above, i just think i’d sooner take steroids than subject myself to that.

Don’t get me wrong, there are training protocols that require 10,000-12,000 calories - particularly for endurance athletes. But again, i was generalise “bodybuilding” and assume he would be training, say, 5 sets of 8-12 reps of say 5 exercises, M/W/F, with plenty of rest and sleep.

For sure, a 250lb bodybuilder 6,000 calories ain’t NOTHING and would be needed to grow. But i think, if your asking a guy of his average size to consume anythign approaching 10,000 calories - then why not just tell him to eat 4,500 cals and take steroids?

Other than the fact that he’s only been training for two years, which is in reality the REAL issue of his experience deficiency which needs to be addressed.

Of course i make these points as humbly as i can, and will defer to anyone of your better judgements due to my own lack of experience with steroids (relatively) and lack of interest in bodybuilding per se.

x

17

I think the OP have to realize that the human body does not grow at a linear rate. And for an natural trainee, it will take time to build up your physique. It will take roughly ten years of consistent training to reach your peak, if not more. Look at strength athletes, and bodybuilders.

Not many people are winning gold medals or Mr. Olympia before they are 30 years of age. And that is with constant chemical assistance. Now what make you think that you have gone as far as you you go without enhancements?
I’d like to see a natural trainee deadlift 2x bodyweight, and clean and press their bodyweight. Before considering using enhancements.

18

in all honesty the truth typically lies in the fact that the calorie target is NOT really being met at all. Having been over 300 lbs and still muscular i can tell you i rarely EVER ate 6000 calories, but i did get at least 4000 QUALITY calories at that time. I maintain 260 and fairly lean on about 3000 calories easily. For every 100 guys that state they eat 4000 calories a day i would bet maybe one does.

As far as guys claiming to eat 6000 every day…i seriously doubt it unless you are a full time athlete/BB. An honest 4000 calories of truly quality nutrients per day should be enough for about any goal. But as always we have too many experts that claim to know exactly how to get to be 300 lb bodybuilders (or whatever) even though they have never been there. The “internet guru” is about the worst thing to ever happen to bodybuilding.

19

Most people I know that eat 6000 real clean Kcals are proper endurance athletes. The average weight trainer, will never expend that much energy to require that much energy surplus.
I weigh about 240 pounds, and I bulk up on 3500kcals easily.

20

[quote]mephistopheles wrote:
Most people I know that eat 6000 real clean Kcals are proper endurance athletes. The average weight trainer, will never expend that much energy to require that much energy surplus.
I weigh about 240 pounds, and I bulk up on 3500kcals easily. [/quote]

To you and MorePain–

I don’t bulk easily and never have, which is a source of frustration to me as I have to do everything just right and a number of my friends or training partners don’t. Although I don’t use them any more, I have meticulous old nutrition logs that log everything I ever ate, drank, or looked at (j/k) along with the time of day, serving size, calories, P/C/F. I can attest to my numbers, although I will reiterate that it wasn’t a 24/7/365 thing. It went in phases when I plateaued, and then I’d drop the calories again gradually to keep growing without getting too fat.

I will also say I was doing more general activity than I am now as well, and that undoubtedly accounts for some of the calories I needed at as little as 190 lbs total bodyweight. No endurance stuff so speak either though.

I do agree in general though 1) almost nobody eats what they claim because they don’t keep a damn food log and 2) generally speaking an endurance athlete requires crazy amounts of calories compared to a bodybuilder. It isn’t always the case however. :wink:

I will also say I envy your ability to grow at 240 on only 3500 calories a day, because that is decidedly on the low end for me and I weigh the same.