i currently do cleans and/or snatches at the begining of every workout. im just wonding if for size, is it better to go from the floor or the hang?
For size, it’s better if you use some actual bodybuilding movements via bodybuilding protocol instead of an olympic movement.
I already know I’m about to get flamed into oblivion for this because this is the internet; but anybody who thinks the clean or snatch is any ANY program of ANY top notch bodybuilder on stage or even this WEBSITE is out of their mind.
This question is worthless
thanks man i know what you mean. but my trainer for powerlifitn gmakes us do them before our main 5-3-1 lift. i was hoping it was going to build some decent trap or erector size
If you’re training for power and stuff,that’s a different story.
I mean I guess if you wanted it to build more trap size, it would be better if it was at a farther distance because more work = more force exertion = further muscle exhaustion.
rotate through different variations and have a look at Steve pulcinella’s log over at elitefts
< - - Apparently out of my mind.
[quote]Ethan7X wrote:
… anybody who thinks the clean or snatch is any ANY program of ANY top notch bodybuilder on stage or even this WEBSITE is out of their mind.[/quote]
“I believe in the basic exercises. I love those clean and presses, I love the T-bar row, the deadlift. Those are the exercises that build your foundation so you can always go back to that.” - Robby Robinson.
“Cleaning a weight is a method of lifting a barbell from the floor to the starting position of the Military Press. The clean and press is an important exercise that starts off with a lot of leg movement to get the weight moving, then involves the traps, arms, and back as well as the shoulders to help you develop a truly Herculean look.” - Arnold.
“This is not a low-level or medium-level movement. It is a high-level movement, comprehensive and systemic, meaning in simple terms a full-body, major-muscle, multi-joint exercise responsible for sending messages throughout the entire body to grow - to adapt - and meet the demand. This includes enzymes, neural pathways and hormones. Clean and presses growl. They bad.” - Dave Draper.
“The best way to strengthen the lower back is to use a variety of heavy bending-over exercises. Right at the top of the list is the deadlift. Repetition cleans are another excellent exercise when done with a heavy barbell.” - Franco Columbu.
“If I have a secret weapon, it’s the power clean. I almost always include cleans in my back routine, doing them for four to six sets of 10-15 reps. They really bring out my spinal erectors and my trapezius from top to bottom.” - Al Beckles.
[quote]bmac63095 wrote:
i currently do cleans and/or snatches at the begining of every workout.[/quote]
What kind of sets and reps does your coach have you working with, out of curiosity?
For an upper body “emphasis”, I’ll sometimes use the hang versions as the first exercise of the day. Lifting from the floor does make the exercise harder (essentially increasing the range of motion) and obviously requires more leg work, so in a muscular-sense, it’s a matter of what you’re looking to get out of the exercise.
There have been a bunch of articles here on the site about incorporating cleans, snatches, and their variations into a routine. A quick search should bring them up.
Why people make so stupid statements.
“If I train like a proffesional bodybuilder I’ll be like them…”
If I play basketball I will be taller…
Fucking totally wrong.
The way you should train its not the same way a proffesional bodybuilder trains…why people tend just to copy shit instead of trying by themself?!
Look, NOT many here are proffesional BB so stop acting like if you guys were.
Man, I have done MYSELF power cleans from the FLOOR, high reps with 60 KG(sets of 12-15 reps), and I never felt my hams and traps like that next morning before.
[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
< - - Apparently out of my mind.
[quote]Ethan7X wrote:
… anybody who thinks the clean or snatch is any ANY program of ANY top notch bodybuilder on stage or even this WEBSITE is out of their mind.[/quote]
“I believe in the basic exercises. I love those clean and presses, I love the T-bar row, the deadlift. Those are the exercises that build your foundation so you can always go back to that.” - Robby Robinson.
“Cleaning a weight is a method of lifting a barbell from the floor to the starting position of the Military Press. The clean and press is an important exercise that starts off with a lot of leg movement to get the weight moving, then involves the traps, arms, and back as well as the shoulders to help you develop a truly Herculean look.” - Arnold.
“This is not a low-level or medium-level movement. It is a high-level movement, comprehensive and systemic, meaning in simple terms a full-body, major-muscle, multi-joint exercise responsible for sending messages throughout the entire body to grow - to adapt - and meet the demand. This includes enzymes, neural pathways and hormones. Clean and presses growl. They bad.” - Dave Draper.
“The best way to strengthen the lower back is to use a variety of heavy bending-over exercises. Right at the top of the list is the deadlift. Repetition cleans are another excellent exercise when done with a heavy barbell.” - Franco Columbu.
“If I have a secret weapon, it’s the power clean. I almost always include cleans in my back routine, doing them for four to six sets of 10-15 reps. They really bring out my spinal erectors and my trapezius from top to bottom.” - Al Beckles.[/quote]
Good post!
[quote]Matias A. wrote:
Why people make so stupid statements.
“If I train like a proffesional bodybuilder I’ll be like them…”
If I play basketball I will be taller…
Fucking totally wrong.
The way you should train its not the same way a proffesional bodybuilder trains…why people tend just to copy shit instead of trying by themself?!
Look, NOT many here are proffesional BB so stop acting like if you guys were.
Man, I have done MYSELF power cleans from the FLOOR, high reps with 60 KG(sets of 12-15 reps), and I never felt my hams and traps like that next morning before.
[/quote]
Ummmm bodybuilders are the best in the world at gaining muscle, and getting lean. Part of that is genetics, part is drugs, part is diet, part is training. IE for the goals of gaining muscle and losing fat, the best bodybuilders in the world have the best genetics, the best drugs, the best diet, and the best training. You obviously can’t change your genetics, and you may not want to take drugs, but you should absolutely look at what they do as far as diet and training.
A natural lifter will obviously have to adjust what he does keeping in mind less recovery ability than an assisted lifter, and I’m not saying train exactly like they do, but if your goals are to look muscular and lean, look to the people who are the best at doing that.
Your basketball analogy was stupid. Professional bodybuilders train to get muscular. Basketball players play basketball to get better at playing basketball (a pretty good idea actually), not to get taller.
+1 on the power cleans. As a person who couldn’t give a shit about the norms and stigmas, the best programs are the ones that work for YOU. I dedicate power cleans to a day of its own, and still do a more traditional back day later in the week. I don’t know about doing them before every workout and I won’t try to debunk it because I haven’t tried it.
As far as the “You never see any bodybuilder doing power cleans or any other Oly movements” statement, when is the last time you looked at some of the stuff CT has been doing. Pretty sure he has ALWAYS incorporated Oly movements to some degree. You know why? Because they work!
My traps never grew an inch until I started doing power cleans. I did all the traditional this and that for trap growth and nothing every really worked. I have had more trap growth in the last 3 months than the last 5 years.
[quote]Matias A. wrote:
Man, I have done MYSELF power cleans from the FLOOR, high reps with 60 KG(sets of 12-15 reps), and I never felt my hams and traps like that next morning before.
[/quote]
BTW this part of your post was fine, I’m not arguing against doing power cleans, and Chris (as usual) had a great post about it.
Please link me one successful bodybuilder that is at the top of the industry right now with cleans in their program.
The anecdotal evidence, what you “feel”, and what you “do” is irrelevant.
Just because I do 500 pushups and the next day am deathly sore and can barely move doesn’t mean I am going to get top rankings on stage, or get the most growth.
I’m trying to think of one single Mr.Olympia in the past 20 years who uses/used power cleans…and ironicaly…eh…they didn’t.
That is all
[quote]Ethan7X wrote:
I’m trying to think of one single Mr.Olympia in the past 20 years who uses/used power cleans…and ironicaly…eh…they didn’t.
That is all[/quote]
Yes. That is all.
[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
[quote]Ethan7X wrote:
I’m trying to think of one single Mr.Olympia in the past 20 years who uses/used power cleans…and ironicaly…eh…they didn’t.
That is all[/quote]
Yes. That is all.[/quote]
A re-enactment of what Chris just did to Ethan7X’s argument ^
It has been delivered
Mind = blown.
Phil is the first then.
In no specific order : Arnold,Zane,Haney,Yates,Coleman,Cutler.
Zero hang cleans.
But there had to be one to prove your point.Just one. loollololo
[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
< - - Apparently out of my mind.
[quote]Ethan7X wrote:
… anybody who thinks the clean or snatch is any ANY program of ANY top notch bodybuilder on stage or even this WEBSITE is out of their mind.[/quote]
“I believe in the basic exercises. I love those clean and presses, I love the T-bar row, the deadlift. Those are the exercises that build your foundation so you can always go back to that.” - Robby Robinson.
“Cleaning a weight is a method of lifting a barbell from the floor to the starting position of the Military Press. The clean and press is an important exercise that starts off with a lot of leg movement to get the weight moving, then involves the traps, arms, and back as well as the shoulders to help you develop a truly Herculean look.” - Arnold.
“This is not a low-level or medium-level movement. It is a high-level movement, comprehensive and systemic, meaning in simple terms a full-body, major-muscle, multi-joint exercise responsible for sending messages throughout the entire body to grow - to adapt - and meet the demand. This includes enzymes, neural pathways and hormones. Clean and presses growl. They bad.” - Dave Draper.
“The best way to strengthen the lower back is to use a variety of heavy bending-over exercises. Right at the top of the list is the deadlift. Repetition cleans are another excellent exercise when done with a heavy barbell.” - Franco Columbu.
“If I have a secret weapon, it’s the power clean. I almost always include cleans in my back routine, doing them for four to six sets of 10-15 reps. They really bring out my spinal erectors and my trapezius from top to bottom.” - Al Beckles.[/quote]
The “cleans” that are endorsed or performed by most bodybuilders are pretty much a hybrid of a quick deadlift/upright row/reverse barbell curl type of movement. Many bodybuilders lack the athleticism/mobility/technique to be performing true power cleans/cleans (like Olympic lifters and other strength athletes).
If done with light/moderate weights for meduim to high reps, there is some trap building benefit in this “bodybuilder style” of cleans. However, if one really pushes the poundages up over time, the repetitive ballistic lifting and lowering will take its toll on the wrists, elbows and shoulders. At that point bumper plates and a platform along with eliminating the lowering phase of the lift would be wise.
[quote]Egg Head wrote:
The “cleans” that are endorsed or performed by most bodybuilders are pretty much a hybrid of a quick deadlift/upright row/reverse barbell curl type of movement. Many bodybuilders lack the athleticism/mobility/technique to be performing true power cleans/cleans (like Olympic lifters and other strength athletes).[/quote]
That’s a heck of a generalization. I’ll just say that a clean with less-than-competition-acceptable form will still build plenty of muscle and strength. Also, even if some bodybuilders were to use “loose” form with cleans, it wouldn’t be that much different than using “loose” form with barbell curls. The job’s still getting done.
[quote]Ethan7x wrote:
Phil is the first then.[/quote]
He is, literally, not the first.
[quote]In no specific order : Arnold,Zane,Haney,Yates,Coleman,Cutler.
Zero hang cleans.[/quote]
I’m pretty sure this’ll be my last post in this thread because I’m reminded of Twain’s quote about arguing with fools.
Arnold competed in Olympic weightlifting in the early and mid-60s, which was also when he began competing. This means… hold onto your hat… he was doing cleans and snatches at that time. A good number of other top bodybuilders from the '40s, '50s, and '60s also had a foundation in competitive Olympic lifting (again, plenty of cleans and snatches), Sergio Oliva among them.
Haney went to college on a football scholarship in the mid-'70s and won his first pro contest in the early-'80s. Last I checked, cleans were pretty standard issue for football players. (Okay, even I’ll admit that might be a stretch.)
As for the other Mr. Olympias you mentioned, I guess you got me on that one. I can’t find documentation of their decades of training that may or may not discuss their experience with olympic lifts. Though I have to say, I don’t really feel like investing any more time into “defending” my side of this discussion. I’m comfortable with the info I’ve already laid out.
I think I proved my point well enough. If you want to keep insisting that the sky is green and grass is blue, have fun.