What’s the optimal Chest:Back strength ratio for healthy and posture? I’m at 1:1 for Chinups:Dips and I’m wondering whether I should be focusing on one over the other.
I would expect someone to be better at dips than pullups.
[quote]csulli wrote:
I would expect someone to be better at dips than pullups.[/quote]
Right, because people tend to overdo pushing exercises and spend lots of time driving and at a computer.
But for optimal posture and joint & muscle health, what should the ratio look like?
[quote]ChicagoLad wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
I would expect someone to be better at dips than pullups.[/quote]
Right, because people tend to overdo pushing exercises and spend lots of time driving and at a computer.
But for optimal posture and joint & muscle health, what should the ratio look like?[/quote]
It’s more of a leverages thing I would think. You’re in a pretty optimal position to press in a dip. A better comparison would be like a Dip to a Row, and maybe a Pull-up to a OHP. At least that’s what I would think.
[quote]ChicagoLad wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
I would expect someone to be better at dips than pullups.[/quote]
Right, because people tend to overdo pushing exercises and spend lots of time driving and at a computer.
But for optimal posture and joint & muscle health, what should the ratio look like?[/quote]
I don’t think there is a right answer to this question. I think it probably depends on an individuals proportions and other factors. Also dips have a lesser ROM than chins, so you can’t directly compare them for that reason (and others).
I think the average, balanced person can probably manage more dips than chin-ups (just from anecdotal experience). Maybe a ratio of 1.5:1 dips to chins. But as I said I expect a lot of normal variation in that, and I wouldn’t get too hung up on it. Just make sure you put in a balanced work load on pushing and pulling and ratios will take care of themselves.
I’ve always been told a good ratio for pulling to pushing is 2:1. Granted that’s reps and not overall strength, but the important thing I think is that you are a better puller then pusher. Just something to think about
Wait, I thought I were talking weighted dip to pull up ratio. I guess they would be about the same anyway. Roughly, I’m at ~5:4.
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
A better comparison would be like a Dip to a Row, and maybe a Pull-up to a OHP. At least that’s what I would think. [/quote]
Yup, my OHP is pretty much exactly my weighted chin up.
[quote]DAVE101 wrote:
Wait, I thought I were talking weighted dip to pull up ratio. I guess they would be about the same anyway. Roughly, I’m at ~5:4.
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
A better comparison would be like a Dip to a Row, and maybe a Pull-up to a OHP. At least that’s what I would think. [/quote]
Yup, my OHP is pretty much exactly my weighted chin up.
[/quote]
That seems off to me… My weighted pull up is far above my ohp. How many people can walk into a gym for the first time and manage a single pull up? Given that they are not terribly overweight I’d say most. How many can walk in for the first time and do a bw OHP?
I remember reading an article a while ago about your bench 1rm matching your pull up 3rm but can’t remember exactly, I think it was a De Franco article but may be mistaken.
http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1823834
OP read this and then the article linked in the intro.
[quote]Iron_Made wrote:
[quote]DAVE101 wrote:
Wait, I thought I were talking weighted dip to pull up ratio. I guess they would be about the same anyway. Roughly, I’m at ~5:4.
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
A better comparison would be like a Dip to a Row, and maybe a Pull-up to a OHP. At least that’s what I would think. [/quote]
Yup, my OHP is pretty much exactly my weighted chin up.
[/quote]
That seems off to me… My weighted pull up is far above my ohp. How many people can walk into a gym for the first time and manage a single pull up? Given that they are not terribly overweight I’d say most. How many can walk in for the first time and do a bw OHP?
I remember reading an article a while ago about your bench 1rm matching your pull up 3rm but can’t remember exactly, I think it was a De Franco article but may be mistaken. [/quote]
Ohh sorry. I didn’t mean they would be a 1:1 ratio, just that they would be more accurate to compare. I mean, I know people who can knock out 15 solid pullups, but close to 40 consecutive Dips. I just feels the ratio of dips:pull-ups will always pretty off and probably don’t correlate at all, while a 2:1 ratio for pull-ups to OHP would probably, idk, ‘hold up’ well.
[quote]ChicagoLad wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
I would expect someone to be better at dips than pullups.[/quote]
Right, because people tend to overdo pushing exercises and spend lots of time driving and at a computer.
But for optimal posture and joint & muscle health, what should the ratio look like?[/quote]
No, dips are just easier. It is a much more mechanically advantaged movement. My training partner does over 1000 pullups a week and doesn’t really do dips that often. He’s still better at dips lol.
But as for frequency, I would agree that 99% of folks could do with more pullups in their lives.
For what it’s worth at 200lbs bodyweight my best set of pullups is 20, and my best set of dips is 50. So I’m at a 1:2.5 ratio just going off rep maxes.
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
[quote]ChicagoLad wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
I would expect someone to be better at dips than pullups.[/quote]
Right, because people tend to overdo pushing exercises and spend lots of time driving and at a computer.
But for optimal posture and joint & muscle health, what should the ratio look like?[/quote]
It’s more of a leverages thing I would think. You’re in a pretty optimal position to press in a dip. A better comparison would be like a Dip to a Row, and maybe a Pull-up to a OHP. At least that’s what I would think. [/quote]
I agree with this too. As far as BW exercises go Pull/Chin-ups are more challenging than Dips, imo. Range of motion is part of the equation too.
I agree with csulli. A proper dip is a much more mechanically advantaged movement than a proper pull up. Maybe if someone is doing 1/2 pullups (as many do) or kippings, it would be a better comparison.
Another thing to consider is that a trainee with shorter arms will be much better at dips and much worse at pull ups. The obverse may be true, but again, the mechanical advantage is different.
I think a better way to approach this issue is to 1) make sure you are doing, at a bare minimum, the same # of pulling reps as pushing (1.5 -2 to 1 would probably be even better) with comparible intensity and 2) pound the shit out of your rear delts/upper back. If you do these things, you probably won’t need to worry too much about a golden ratio unless it is still wildly unbalanced for some unknown reason or it is causing you pain.
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]ChicagoLad wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
I would expect someone to be better at dips than pullups.[/quote]
Right, because people tend to overdo pushing exercises and spend lots of time driving and at a computer.
But for optimal posture and joint & muscle health, what should the ratio look like?[/quote]
No, dips are just easier. It is a much more mechanically advantaged movement. My training partner does over 1000 pullups a week and doesn’t really do dips that often. He’s still better at dips lol.
But as for frequency, I would agree that 99% of folks could do with more pullups in their lives.[/quote]
Fuck that makes my elbows and bicep tendons hurt just thinking about that
[quote]Iron_Made wrote:
That seems off to me… My weighted pull up is far above my ohp. How many people can walk into a gym for the first time and manage a single pull up? Given that they are not terribly overweight I’d say most. How many can walk in for the first time and do a bw OHP? [/quote]
Wait what? Why are you comparing a regular pull up to a BW OHP? We are talking weighted…
[quote]DAVE101 wrote:
[quote]Iron_Made wrote:
That seems off to me… My weighted pull up is far above my ohp. How many people can walk into a gym for the first time and manage a single pull up? Given that they are not terribly overweight I’d say most. How many can walk in for the first time and do a bw OHP? [/quote]
Wait what? Why are you comparing a regular pull up to a BW OHP? We are talking weighted…[/quote]
Yeah I think you guys are on different pages here haha. I would like clarification too, cuz either way that seems like an odd comparison to match up. Taking myself as an example, BW 220, OHP is around 250. Are you saying I should be able to do a pull up with BW+250, or 250 total (BW+30). Its possible Im exactly in between those two numbers for a 1RM weight pull up, now that I look at it. Either way doesnt sound right to me, really. Maybe I just suck as weighted pull ups though.
Anyways these kind of ratios are always interesting to see, but really theres too many factors to use any of em as a blanket ratio. Ive seen a bunch of em, they are mostly useful to make sure you dont get too far ahead on pressing for posture/injury reasons.
[quote]mkral55 wrote:
[quote]DAVE101 wrote:
[quote]Iron_Made wrote:
That seems off to me… My weighted pull up is far above my ohp. How many people can walk into a gym for the first time and manage a single pull up? Given that they are not terribly overweight I’d say most. How many can walk in for the first time and do a bw OHP? [/quote]
Wait what? Why are you comparing a regular pull up to a BW OHP? We are talking weighted…[/quote]
Yeah I think you guys are on different pages here haha. I would like clarification too, cuz either way that seems like an odd comparison to match up. Taking myself as an example, BW 220, OHP is around 250. Are you saying I should be able to do a pull up with BW+250, or 250 total (BW+30). Its possible Im exactly in between those two numbers for a 1RM weight pull up, now that I look at it. Either way doesnt sound right to me, really. Maybe I just suck as weighted pull ups though.
Anyways these kind of ratios are always interesting to see, but really theres too many factors to use any of em as a blanket ratio. Ive seen a bunch of em, they are mostly useful to make sure you dont get too far ahead on pressing for posture/injury reasons. [/quote]
I am saying that say a 160 pound guy walks into the gym for the first time. Chances are that he is going to be able to do at least one pull up. So lets say his pull up max is 160 pounds. What are the chances that he can do a 160 pound ohp? very unlikely. For me personally I have a 75kg OHP max and have a 110kg pullup max (70kg bw + 2 plates). Have I made my point clearer or must I explain it differently?
[quote]Iron_Made wrote:
[quote]mkral55 wrote:
[quote]DAVE101 wrote:
[quote]Iron_Made wrote:
That seems off to me… My weighted pull up is far above my ohp. How many people can walk into a gym for the first time and manage a single pull up? Given that they are not terribly overweight I’d say most. How many can walk in for the first time and do a bw OHP? [/quote]
Wait what? Why are you comparing a regular pull up to a BW OHP? We are talking weighted…[/quote]
Yeah I think you guys are on different pages here haha. I would like clarification too, cuz either way that seems like an odd comparison to match up. Taking myself as an example, BW 220, OHP is around 250. Are you saying I should be able to do a pull up with BW+250, or 250 total (BW+30). Its possible Im exactly in between those two numbers for a 1RM weight pull up, now that I look at it. Either way doesnt sound right to me, really. Maybe I just suck as weighted pull ups though.
Anyways these kind of ratios are always interesting to see, but really theres too many factors to use any of em as a blanket ratio. Ive seen a bunch of em, they are mostly useful to make sure you dont get too far ahead on pressing for posture/injury reasons. [/quote]
I am saying that say a 160 pound guy walks into the gym for the first time. Chances are that he is going to be able to do at least one pull up. So lets say his pull up max is 160 pounds. What are the chances that he can do a 160 pound ohp? very unlikely. For me personally I have a 75kg OHP max and have a 110kg pullup max (70kg bw + 2 plates). Have I made my point clearer or must I explain it differently?[/quote]
His “pull up” max is 1, his “weighted pull up” max is 0. Now I see you were assuming BW is calculated into the weight, which I wouldn’t do personally since you wouldn’t do it for squats or any other lift. For reference, I OHP 140 and weighted pull 145.
I think that ratio puts you abnormally stronger at pulling, tbh. I’m on the other end with a 250 OHP and a weighted pull up of half that, by your formula.
Anyways, I dunno if that’s a useful ratio since it introduces yet another factor, leanness.