Cephalic Carnage: How Do You Train?

Hi CC,

I am curious as to the key reasons why DC is targeted for intermediate to advanced lifters. I have done lots of reading here and IntenseMuscle and still can’t hang my hat on key whys. Given the credibility of the program, I am not one to question it but just to understand why. Here are my thoughts …

Newbs may injure themselves with RP and Static Holds.
Newbs can grow faster by lifting the body parts more frequently like maybe even 3 times per week on programs like Starting Strength, Bigger-Faster-Stonger, etc.
Newbs aren’t able to apply the intensity needed for an all-out set due to inexperience (other templates are better suited that have a bit more volume).
Newbs will likely not follow the template (training and diet) and try and tweak it.

I have heard many times that you should have hit a plateau on your current training template. Is this particular recommendation more along the lines of “don’t fix what doesn’t need fixing”?

Thank you and appreciate all the great feedback you provide for us.

Doug

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Gaius Octavius wrote:
I don’t have a bench vid. I could make one though.
And I’ve been using it as a 5/3/1 exercise.

How can you only have progressed by 5 pounds in half a year (or whatever) when using it as a main exercise?
Do your reps just drop below even the day’s rep-goal when adding weight or what?

Can you post 2 bench cycles from your log perhaps?
[/quote]

I’m referring to my max bench press. I have a meet in a few weeks and my bench is going to lag behind pretty badly.
I maxed out in early june IIRC and got 125kg. Since then that number hasn’t gone up. I’ve only been through four cycles of 5/3/1 though.
Cycle 1: 92.5kg10/97.5kg8/102.5kg5
Cycle 2:95kg
8/100kg5/105kg1(maxed out on squats beforehand)
Cycle 3:95kg8/100kg7/105kg5(kept the weights the same through this cycle)
Cycle 4:97.5kg
6/102.5kg4/107.5kgWe’ll see next friday

I don’t know. Maybe I’m overreacting, but I think this sucks. And I KNOW it does compared to how my other lifts have increased.

[quote]Gaius Octavius wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Gaius Octavius wrote:
I don’t have a bench vid. I could make one though.
And I’ve been using it as a 5/3/1 exercise.

How can you only have progressed by 5 pounds in half a year (or whatever) when using it as a main exercise?
Do your reps just drop below even the day’s rep-goal when adding weight or what?

Can you post 2 bench cycles from your log perhaps?

I’m referring to my max bench press. I have a meet in a few weeks and my bench is going to lag behind pretty badly.
I maxed out in early june IIRC and got 125kg. Since then that number hasn’t gone up. I’ve only been through four cycles of 5/3/1 though.
Cycle 1: 92.5kg10/97.5kg8/102.5kg5
Cycle 2:95kg
8/100kg5/105kg1(maxed out on squats beforehand) [/quote] between this wave and the next, something went wrong… Nutrition maybe? Also, you put only 5 kilos on your 5RM in those 4 cycles, that’s ok for advanced guys but less so for people who only bench a bit above 200. And that isn’t exactly going to result in a major gain on your 1RM, of course. Don’t sweat it though, work on your setup and technique pre-meet and you may well get a few more kilos up. How’s strength on rows with scap retraction each rep?[quote]
Cycle 3:95kg8/100kg7/105kg5(kept the weights the same through this cycle)
Cycle 4:97.5kg
6/102.5kg4/107.5kgWe’ll see next friday

I don’t know. Maybe I’m overreacting, but I think this sucks. And I KNOW it does compared to how my other lifts have increased.[/quote]

Hmmmmmmmmm.
Make that bench vid.

What’s the whole routine again? Maybe we have to rethink your assistance stuff.
Did you do the deloads?

Also, what do you mean, you maxed out on squats beforehand? You don’t squat the same day as you bench, or squat a day before bench or anything, after all. (and I would not max out often on this routine, tbh. For meet-prep, try a more traditional peaking cycle… Though some have used 5/3/1 for it (I’d make it so that meet day was within wave 3, and simply not do anything but very light work that wave prior to the meet).

CC-I appreciate your help. I like the plan you recommend and will start it ASAP. As for the rep ranges I think I will go with the DC variant for now. Any dietary advice? 2grams of Protein per lbs of bodyweight? Use mainly fats for energy cals and limit carbs? Has anyone you know had more success with carb cycling. Thanks again, feel less lost.

[quote]dfoiles wrote:
Hi CC,

I am curious as to the key reasons why DC is targeted for intermediate to advanced lifters. I have done lots of reading here and IntenseMuscle and still can’t hang my hat on key whys. Given the credibility of the program, I am not one to question it but just to understand why. Here are my thoughts …

Newbs may injure themselves with RP and Static Holds.
Newbs can grow faster by lifting the body parts more frequently like maybe even 3 times per week on programs like Starting Strength, Bigger-Faster-Stonger, etc. [/quote] Actually, it’s less that and more that they are better off repeating the same exercise more often. Hitting everything 3 times in 2 weeks is perfectly fine for beginners… But 3 times a week can work as well. Imo though I wouldn’t go with a full-body routine there…[quote]
Newbs aren’t able to apply the intensity needed for an all-out set due to inexperience (other templates are better suited that have a bit more volume).
Newbs will likely not follow the template (training and diet) and try and tweak it.

I have heard many times that you should have hit a plateau on your current training template. Is this particular recommendation more along the lines of “don’t fix what doesn’t need fixing”?

Thank you and appreciate all the great feedback you provide for us.

Doug[/quote]

Hmm. I could come up with a hundred reasons, but let’s stick to the (imo) main stuff:

-triple rotation is a necessity for most advanced guys doing the program, they would run into a plateau very soon otherwise/regress. For beginners though, it’ll slow down progress and, as you mentioned, means that technique etc don’t improve nearly as fast as they should/less of a learning effect.

-intensity for one set, well, that has to be learned of course. You can’t expect to go super-high volume for 5 years and then switch to 1 set or 1RP set routines and expect to have the right amount of “intensity/intensiveness” due to your 5 years of training experience. You can do 1-2 set/exercise routines as a beginner just fine… But yeah, you normally have higher frequency or more exercises per muscle-group then…

-you need to know which exercises work really well for each of your muscle-groups, should have gotten far, technique-wise (you always keep learning, of course, but you get what I mean…).

Over the course of your training career you will (hopefully) get several “A-Ha!” moments in regards to lifting technique and setup. Examples would be the role of scapular retraction in lifting, when and how to do it, explosive lifting and lifting with intensely, how to get yourself in “the zone”, what matters in the various exercises/what you should focus on (i.e. scap retraction during each kroc row rep is far more important than whether or not your upper body moves during the exercise… Etc. A newb sees a pro curl and thinks “cheater, he’s doing it wrong”. He’s focusing on the wrong aspect of the lift and has no clue what the pro is really doing there. )… How to set up for the various presses (where do my shoulders go? etc), how you may have to alter your technique/setup when the weight gets real heavy (which is something that some weak/small internet author cannot understand at all, as he’s never been in such a situation, same for the beginner and most intermediates).
… How to train each muscle-group “optimally” (for you) is also part of that. It took me a while to figure out lat training… Pull-ups, no matter what technique, weren’t doing the trick at all.

-You need to know your recovery abilities etc.

-You’ll need to have developed some “Lifting common sense”… That one is difficult to explain.

-Mental maturity…

-Have your diet figured out.

I think rather than “years lifting”, what matters is “how much progress have you made?” (perhaps "how much progress have you made drug-free past 20 y.o.? Not that I’m against steroids, but it pays to learn how to really progress well without chemical assistance.)

There are many other reasons. Suffice to say DC wasn’t created with optimal beginner or intermediate (though quite a few intermediates can make great progress off it) gains in mind, and your margin for error isn’t all that large in that program.

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
between this wave and the next, something went wrong… Nutrition maybe? Also, you put only 5 kilos on your 5RM in those 4 cycles, that’s ok for advanced guys but less so for people who only bench a bit above 200. And that isn’t exactly going to result in a major gain on your 1RM, of course. Don’t sweat it though, work on your setup and technique pre-meet and you may well get a few more kilos up. How’s strength on rows with scap retraction each rep?[/quote]
About 110kg*12 for BB rows.

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Hmmmmmmmmm.
Make that bench vid.

What’s the whole routine again? Maybe we have to rethink your assistance stuff.
Did you do the deloads?

Also, what do you mean, you maxed out on squats beforehand? You don’t squat the same day as you bench, or squat a day before bench or anything, after all. (and I would not max out often on this routine, tbh. For meet-prep, try a more traditional peaking cycle… Though some have used 5/3/1 for it (I’d make it so that meet day was within wave 3, and simply not do anything but very light work that wave prior to the meet).[/quote]

I’ll make that bench vid come next friday.
My template was this:
Squat day: Squats, BB Curls, Weighted Hyperextensions, weighted ab pulldowns
MP day: MP, BB Row, Lat Pulldown, Pushups, Overhead DB Tricep Extensions
Deadlift day: deadlifts, pinwheels, Leg Press widowmaker, weighted crunches
Bench Press day: Bench, Log presses, DB Rows(not krocs though), Lat pulldowns

I’m not overly concerned about peaking for the meet, I just don’t want to post weirdly imbalanced numbers. As for that “I maxed out beforehand”, at that point in time I believed I was capable of hitting 405 on the squat, so I wanted to try it(smoked the weight too). Afterwards I benched and man was that a bad idea.

[quote]MiJuggernaut wrote:
CC-I appreciate your help. I like the plan you recommend and will start it ASAP. As for the rep ranges I think I will go with the DC variant for now[/quote] Don’t do more than 1 RP exercise per muscle-group, also, as in DC, Squats, Deads, BO rows etc are not rest-paused (anything involving the low-back in a major way, as well as flat bb bench)[quote]. Any dietary advice? 2grams of Protein per lbs of bodyweight?[/quote] 1.5 minimum imo, and if you train very intensely then 2 grams, yeah… [quote] Use mainly fats for energy cals and limit carbs?[/quote] If you want to gain very fast, imo carbs help a lot… But if you want to lose fat, go with fat or better yet, carb cycling. Don’t expect maximal strength/size progress then, though. [quote] Has anyone you know had more success with carb cycling. Thanks again, feel less lost.
[/quote] Carb cycling is fine. I’d recommend shelby’s version. It’s not what I’d do if I were training 6 days a week or wanted maximal progression speed, of course.

C_C,

Just want to say awesome thread man. Your patience coupled with your insight makes for a really good read, and I’ve taken quite a bit away from this thread. After completing BBB, I realized that super high frequency didn’t work for me as well as other methods, so I am in the middle of giving your Yates 3 way a shot.

Resulted in getting my bench up to over 1.5x BW and Deads to 2x BW with your indirect advice… thanks dude, you’re a great thinking man thats been in the trenches.

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
dfoiles wrote:
Hi CC,

I am curious as to the key reasons why DC is targeted for intermediate to advanced lifters. I have done lots of reading here and IntenseMuscle and still can’t hang my hat on key whys. Given the credibility of the program, I am not one to question it but just to understand why. Here are my thoughts …

Newbs may injure themselves with RP and Static Holds.
Newbs can grow faster by lifting the body parts more frequently like maybe even 3 times per week on programs like Starting Strength, Bigger-Faster-Stonger, etc. Actually, it’s less that and more that they are better off repeating the same exercise more often. Hitting everything 3 times in 2 weeks is perfectly fine for beginners… But 3 times a week can work as well. Imo though I wouldn’t go with a full-body routine there…
Newbs aren’t able to apply the intensity needed for an all-out set due to inexperience (other templates are better suited that have a bit more volume).
Newbs will likely not follow the template (training and diet) and try and tweak it.

I have heard many times that you should have hit a plateau on your current training template. Is this particular recommendation more along the lines of “don’t fix what doesn’t need fixing”?

Thank you and appreciate all the great feedback you provide for us.

Doug

Hmm. I could come up with a hundred reasons, but let’s stick to the (imo) main stuff:

-triple rotation is a necessity for most advanced guys doing the program, they would run into a plateau very soon otherwise/regress. For beginners though, it’ll slow down progress and, as you mentioned, means that technique etc don’t improve nearly as fast as they should/less of a learning effect.

-intensity for one set, well, that has to be learned of course. You can’t expect to go super-high volume for 5 years and then switch to 1 set or 1RP set routines and expect to have the right amount of “intensity/intensiveness” due to your 5 years of training experience. You can do 1-2 set/exercise routines as a beginner just fine… But yeah, you normally have higher frequency or more exercises per muscle-group then…

-you need to know which exercises work really well for each of your muscle-groups, should have gotten far, technique-wise (you always keep learning, of course, but you get what I mean…).

Over the course of your training career you will (hopefully) get several “A-Ha!” moments in regards to lifting technique and setup. Examples would be the role of scapular retraction in lifting, when and how to do it, explosive lifting and lifting with intensely, how to get yourself in “the zone”, what matters in the various exercises/what you should focus on (i.e. scap retraction during each kroc row rep is far more important than whether or not your upper body moves during the exercise… Etc. A newb sees a pro curl and thinks “cheater, he’s doing it wrong”. He’s focusing on the wrong aspect of the lift and has no clue what the pro is really doing there. )… How to set up for the various presses (where do my shoulders go? etc), how you may have to alter your technique/setup when the weight gets real heavy (which is something that some weak/small internet author cannot understand at all, as he’s never been in such a situation, same for the beginner and most intermediates).
… How to train each muscle-group “optimally” (for you) is also part of that. It took me a while to figure out lat training… Pull-ups, no matter what technique, weren’t doing the trick at all.

-You need to know your recovery abilities etc.

-You’ll need to have developed some “Lifting common sense”… That one is difficult to explain.

-Mental maturity…

-Have your diet figured out.

I think rather than “years lifting”, what matters is “how much progress have you made?” (perhaps "how much progress have you made drug-free past 20 y.o.? Not that I’m against steroids, but it pays to learn how to really progress well without chemical assistance.)

There are many other reasons. Suffice to say DC wasn’t created with optimal beginner or intermediate (though quite a few intermediates can make great progress off it) gains in mind, and your margin for error isn’t all that large in that program.

[/quote]

Thanks CC for the feedback to my questions and all the other very useful tidbits. Great point on not having too much exercise rotation for newbs. Just what I was looking for … thanks much!

[quote]dfoiles wrote:
Thanks CC for the feedback to my questions and all the other very useful tidbits. Great point on not having too much exercise rotation for newbs. Just what I was looking for … thanks much!
[/quote]

I actually just realized that I worded the rotation issue wrong.

You CAN have a triple rotation as a beginner, but the cycle shouldn’t be longer than 1 week (i.e. you can use 3 different exercises for a muscle-group on Big Beyond Belief)… Otherwise the learning part falls through.
In essence, a beginner should do his main exercises at least once a week and up to twice a week (I don’t like 3 times a week for the same exercise much…
Limits exercise selection and all that way too much and it’s the frequency that’s really not nice on the joints/tendons. BBB is a prime example: I would never squat 3 times a week, I’d make day 2 squats, day 4 GH raises or so, day 6 squats again. That way you can progress fast on squats without neglecting the hams, while giving your patellar tendons and knees in general/low back a break during the middle of the week. If hams become a weak area or you want to do equipped pling later on, maybe have 2 ham days, 1 day something for hams that’s not hard on the low back, 1 deadlift day and a squat day in the middle or so.

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
MiJuggernaut wrote:
CC-I appreciate your help. I like the plan you recommend and will start it ASAP. As for the rep ranges I think I will go with the DC variant for now Don’t do more than 1 RP exercise per muscle-group, also, as in DC, Squats, Deads, BO rows etc are not rest-paused (anything involving the low-back in a major way, as well as flat bb bench). Any dietary advice? 2grams of Protein per lbs of bodyweight? 1.5 minimum imo, and if you train very intensely then 2 grams, yeah… Use mainly fats for energy cals and limit carbs? If you want to gain very fast, imo carbs help a lot… But if you want to lose fat, go with fat or better yet, carb cycling. Don’t expect maximal strength/size progress then, though. Has anyone you know had more success with carb cycling. Thanks again, feel less lost.
Carb cycling is fine. I’d recommend shelby’s version. It’s not what I’d do if I were training 6 days a week or wanted maximal progression speed, of course.
[/quote]

How WOULD you eat for maximal progression speed while training 5-6 days a week?

[quote]MiJuggernaut wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
MiJuggernaut wrote:
CC-I appreciate your help. I like the plan you recommend and will start it ASAP. As for the rep ranges I think I will go with the DC variant for now Don’t do more than 1 RP exercise per muscle-group, also, as in DC, Squats, Deads, BO rows etc are not rest-paused (anything involving the low-back in a major way, as well as flat bb bench). Any dietary advice? 2grams of Protein per lbs of bodyweight? 1.5 minimum imo, and if you train very intensely then 2 grams, yeah… Use mainly fats for energy cals and limit carbs? If you want to gain very fast, imo carbs help a lot… But if you want to lose fat, go with fat or better yet, carb cycling. Don’t expect maximal strength/size progress then, though. Has anyone you know had more success with carb cycling. Thanks again, feel less lost.
Carb cycling is fine. I’d recommend shelby’s version. It’s not what I’d do if I were training 6 days a week or wanted maximal progression speed, of course.

How WOULD you eat for maximal progression speed while training 5-6 days a week?[/quote]

2 grams of protein per lb of bodyweight (unless you’re flat out fat, but then you would try to lose fat first, of course… If your bf is somewhere in the teens, then you’re good imo), fasted low-intensity am cardio on off-days (or 3-4 days a week if I train 6 days on, preferably not on days where you train legs) to increase appetite (water + green tea extract or some such before you go and do your cardio), I’d try to separate hi carb and hi fat foods to the best of my ability… Protein with every meal (so a meal is either major carbs + major protein or major fat + major protein).
5-7 meals a day, depends on the person, not all have to be solid.
I’d make sure to get in enough fiber, too, particularly with all protein shakes and meals that are not ingested close to my training time or immediately pwo.

Carb and fat cutoff every day, usually at 7 or 8 for me (depends on when you go to bed, most regular sleeping schedules will usually net you a cutoff time at 6). After that it’s just lean protein sources and trace carbs and fiber from some vegetables, salad, tomatoes etc, no major carb or fat amounts.

That’s pretty much the standard DC diet guidelines for guys wanting to gain on the routine… I get my protein in first during the meal, usually, and carbs or fat are added to get my cal count.

Getting in 2-4 grams of fish-oil with every solid meal. Depends on amount of meals, usually averaging 10-12 grams per day.

With that kind of diet approach, you have to follow it strictly (the cutoffs, p+f/p+c and fasted am cardio etc) if you don’t want to gain too much fat (you may even get leaner over time that way and still gain major amounts of strength). You’ll eat a lot during the day, but after cutoff it’s basically a “mini diet” every day, and your body will hopefully have shifted burning/energy source emphasis to fat in the morning if you do things right (and with some help of the GT extract and possible fat-burners you are using) so that you’ll burn some during the cardio (which would normally not work well by itself at all).

That being said, I was a terribly skinny guy (though not super-lean, actually, always smooth) as a teenager and at 20y.o. (at which point I started training) and have often resorted to pizza as a major cal booster…
I’d eat a pizza as break-fast (yep, trick is to find one that tastes really good and make sure it doesn’t burn… Has to be juicy still, so to speak, and the cheese still running, plus whatever base is used makes a difference as well…) and about one or 1.5 hours after my training session of the day (PWO shake was taken in immediately after training, or at times after I got home from the gym, which took me about 10-15 minutes or so).
Not something I’d necessarily recommend to someone who started out as a fattie, but certainly a viable (and often necessary) option for skinny teenagers…

Oh, and don’t forget to eat your vegetables. :slight_smile:

Thanks, CC that sounds like a complete dietary guideline. Again your guidance is much appreciated.

I didn’t know you even took fish oil. People on this site are always talking about grams of fish oil, but the ones I buy here usually list only EPA/DHA content. Are we talking about the actual weight of the capsules or what?

Dear Ceph,

I noticed you posted in my thread about if I was interesting in trying another routine to let you know. What do you have in mind?

With my current routine I’m having trouble with a few things. You mentioned I needed another bi/tri movement on chest/arm day but after RP BB curls/RP EZ Curls my bis are pretty tired, even to do forearms. Another issue is with side raises–not sure what rep range to use–you suggested 12-20 some time ago but that didn’t work for me. Right now I’m doing a warm up set and a set of 6-8 and I’m not sure if that is sufficient. And last but not least I’m still having trouble decided what to use for a lat exercise–either that or a lesson in how to do rack pull-ups.

CC, First off, you are an amazing wealth of training knowledge and i want to thank you for contributing to the forums as you do.

With that said, i wanted to get your opinion on how you would split training up with someone who has Mon/Wed/Fri/Sat as training days available to them? I’d really love to get your opinion and want to thank you in advance for any advice.

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
dfoiles wrote:
Thanks CC for the feedback to my questions and all the other very useful tidbits. Great point on not having too much exercise rotation for newbs. Just what I was looking for … thanks much!

I actually just realized that I worded the rotation issue wrong.

You CAN have a triple rotation as a beginner, but the cycle shouldn’t be longer than 1 week (i.e. you can use 3 different exercises for a muscle-group on Big Beyond Belief)… Otherwise the learning part falls through.
In essence, a beginner should do his main exercises at least once a week and up to twice a week (I don’t like 3 times a week for the same exercise much…
Limits exercise selection and all that way too much and it’s the frequency that’s really not nice on the joints/tendons. BBB is a prime example: I would never squat 3 times a week, I’d make day 2 squats, day 4 GH raises or so, day 6 squats again. That way you can progress fast on squats without neglecting the hams, while giving your patellar tendons and knees in general/low back a break during the middle of the week. If hams become a weak area or you want to do equipped pling later on, maybe have 2 ham days, 1 day something for hams that’s not hard on the low back, 1 deadlift day and a squat day in the middle or so.

[/quote]

Thanks for the clarity CC … and was actually how I had interpreted it :).

Hey CC,

I would absolutely love to get your feedback on a template focused for a 15 year old athlete training in his football offseason. I have not yet seen any feedback that you have provided that didnâ??t totally resonate with me.

Once football ends we have 3 months before lacrosse starts to add some strength/muscle. I would be lifting with him for convenience, but this is specifically targeted to him and his needs. My son plays offensive lineman and currently weighs 185-190 and is 6 foot. He definitely needs more strength and size for varsity next year. He is currently a sophomore and came into his freshman year at low 150s. He started off using Starting Strength on-off in 7th/8th grade and have been using WS4SB and Bigger-Faster-Stronger since. BFS is being used by the high school football program and are stuck having him follow that during periods of the year. Not a bad program at his level but is not being implemented very well at the school. We are able to follow our own program during the winter. Just to give you an idea of his current lifts (Bench:155, Squat:200, Deadlift:305).

I was looking at a modified WS4SB that is done 3 days a week with a bit more focus on ME (Max Effort). Based on schedules, etc. â?¦ I just donâ??t see how we can get 4 days a week in and donâ??t think he needs it at his age and experience (but curious if you agree).

Workout 3 times per week. A 4th day would be used for more GPP. Hit each body part 2 times over the three workouts per week. Exercises would be used twice per week (some only once). Exercises would be kept the same for at least 4 weeks. PRs attempted for each exercise per session (either increase weight or reps each session).

As the WS4SB template specifies â?¦ focus on rep range between 3-5 for ME exercises â?¦ 8-12 for Supplement exercises. 1st exercise is done as one max lift and then other exercises are done across 3 sets.

Week 1 â?¦
Upper ME (5 exercises)
Lower ME (3 exercises)
Upper ME/Lower RE (4 exercises, 2 Upper and 2 Lower)
Week 2 â?¦
Lower ME (3 exercises)
Upper ME (5 exercises)
Lower ME/Upper RE (4 exercises)
Week 3 (repeat of week 1) â?¦
Upper ME
Lower ME
Upper ME/Lower RE
Week 4 â?¦ continued

Also considered a similar split like DC but thought that my son would be better off hitting each both upper/lower body twice a week.

Week 1 â?¦
Upper ME
Lower ME
Upper ME
Week 2 â?¦
Lower ME
Upper ME
Lower ME
Week 3 â?¦ continued

ME = Max Effort
RE = Repetition

[quote]Mr.Purple wrote:
I didn’t know you even took fish oil. People on this site are always talking about grams of fish oil, but the ones I buy here usually list only EPA/DHA content. Are we talking about the actual weight of the capsules or what?[/quote]

The brand I use come in 1 gram caps.

[quote]MiJuggernaut wrote:
Thanks, CC that sounds like a complete dietary guideline. Again your guidance is much appreciated.[/quote]

If you want to know more, read up on Dante’s diet suggestions over at IM (doggpound).

Note: Fasted AM cardio is done for 30-40 mins or so, a brisk walk around the neighborhood or something similar.