Cephalic Carnage: How Do You Train?

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
The.Mentalist wrote:
If anyone could tell me, at the end of wave 4, do you test all you 1rm again so you that the 65%/75%/85% of week 1 are higher than the first time you did the 4 waves. Or do you just log everything and add like 5lbs to the 65% you first started with?

Thanks in advance

x2.

Googled 5/3/1 searched several sites, and never found this out.[/quote]

I read today that it’s suggested 5lbs onto the upperbody max lifts and 10lbs onto the lower max lifts each 4 weeks. Not sure if this is correct or false though.

Could you put up a sample 5 way split?

Edit: Nevermind found it.

Hey C_Cizzle (I hope you don’t mind me calling you that lol) :slight_smile:

So, my chest development still blows and I’m thinking about changing things up. I had those goals of 405 incline and 500 bench and I already hit the 405 incline easy and I’m pretty sure I’m close to 500 on the bench. I’m thinking I need to put the ego away for a while and just focus on hypertrophy again since I think my chest is pretty much the one thing throwing off my upper body physique.

Anyways, I was thinking about pre fatiguing with some cable flys then moving on to my bench and incline workout using a wider grip and just working the bottom 1/2 range of motion.

Thoughts on that?

EDIT: Or I could do CGBP first as pre exhaust and save cables for the end

[quote]The.Mentalist wrote:
I read today that it’s suggested 5lbs onto the upperbody max lifts and 10lbs onto the lower max lifts each 4 weeks. Not sure if this is correct or false though.[/quote]

cool, thanks

C_C

Do you have any 4-5 days split beginner template in your arsenal?

My numbers (1 RM) are quite beginner level
BP - 185 lbs
Squat - 225
DL - 275
OHP - 95
BW chins - 25

BF - 13%-15% @ 5ft 11" abt 155lbs

BTW my dad owns a restaurant in Essen perhaps u can drop by for meal =)

Thanks in advance

Hey C_C, it’s been quite a while. Still listening to death metal and CGBPing 600 I hope. :smiley:

Is there any chance you can check this out and give me your thoughts on the split? I’m still on the Yates 3-way, as before, but I’ve made a few modifications.

I appreciate any input, help, or recommendations as usual.

Hey C_C, You’re cool!

I’m looking at replacing leg curls for RDL’s on leg day. To do this I think it would be best to eliminate deadlifts/rackpulls from back day. What do you recommend to replace them. Current back routine is like this.

Rack chins 3x 10-12
T-Bar Rows 1x10, 1x8, 1x6
Rack pulls 3x8, 1x4-6
Dual pulley lat pulldowns 2x10

My new leg day would look like this

squats 5x5, 4x6, or 6x3, I mix it up from week to week
rdl’s 3x6-8
standing calf raises 3x6
split squats or leg extenions

Trextacy,
Thanks for mentioning that blog, the guy has a real entertaining writing style. I certainly don’t speak for C_C, but I haven’t seen him endorsing the “high risk - high reward” exercises like that guy does. I.e. behind the neck push presses or two hours of clean and press singles.

[quote]MrTangerineSpedo wrote:

trextacy wrote:
Hey C_C, i found a blog by a guy that you may find interesting (or at least entertaining). I can’t post it (filters, for the loss) but if you look at a blogspot website blog called “chaosandpain” you will probably find the blog I’m talking about.

First off- I think you will enjoy reading it (it goes back to Feb) because it basically involves a strong lean dude putting up shitloads of weight, all the while talking shit about Rippetoe, Mentzer and other topics.

Also, the training methods/philosopies, etc. are interesting in that the rep schemes, split, nutritional approach and so forth are against most of the grain. It reminds me of the way Alpha trains and they have similar results (not overly heavy, but very strong, muscular and lean as natural trainees).

If you can wade through the bravado and hyperbole there are some really interesting points of view, and the guy has the results to back it up. He shits on things like 5x5, “hypertrophy” rep ranges, working muscles once weekly, Starting Strength, among other things. Since I have no problem suggesting a beginner use Rippetoe I found that particularly interesting and he makes valid points.

This is what would’ve been in the pm I alluded to you in another thread earlier this week. I know that the frequency is something that gives you pause (unless i’m reading previous posts wrong), but there is something very appealing to me about this sort of training, but of course I’m curious as to your thoughts.

Also, I got my MRI results today and there is no tear in my shoulder. I’m psyched…4-6 weeks of rest, ice, PT and I should be fine. I’m relieved. Just bone edema, muscle/tendon strain, etc. Nothing major.

Trextacy,
Thanks for mentioning that blog, the guy has a real entertaining writing style. I certainly don’t speak for C_C, but I haven’t seen him endorsing the “high risk - high reward” exercises like that guy does. I.e. behind the neck push presses or two hours of clean and press singles.[/quote]

Ok… Got a few hours now.

As for that blog, I haven’t read everything yet, but this is what I think so far:

The guy is funny for sure, and he’s strong for his size.
That being said, he mentioned multiple injuries/surgeries etc… And I still don’t see the big problem with, say, adding in a few sets of curls or so here and there, or at least CGP’s… He has big traps and looks ridiculous from behind with his rather narrow triceps (which he also tore I believe, at least on one side), but balance is obviously not his goal) .

Dunno, he is largely what I would expect from someone training that way (and doing so with a vengeance).
Getting plenty of injuries, the muscle-groups that are the most-utilized in the exercises he does are the largest while others are somewhat underpowered etc… I’m not sure if that kind of training makes any sense for guys who aren’t part of the serious-lifter crowd (i.e. want to get as strong and/or as big [etc] as possible)… He enjoys lifting heavy shit for 1-3 reps and there you go.

There is also a transformation there, of a guy using his system over 80 days or so… Well, I can’t say that that transformation was any more impressive than the average 5x5/rippetoe (which he keeps ranting against) transformation. Guy gained practically no muscle, took his after pics standing much closer to the cam or mirror than the before pics… Only difference I see is his leanness. Strength gains weren’t all that grand if you ask me… Consider that that guy was basically a beginner with little muscle-mass and strength.

You all know my opinion on such routines, largely due to the injury-potential and because they don’t seem to provide any real benefits over less extreme approaches…

Risk vs. reward… I’d rather go with Alpha’s stuff. If you’re well-conditioned (or want to become just that) and not too old, why not…

[quote]SSC wrote:
Hey C_C, it’s been quite a while. Still listening to death metal and CGBPing 600 I hope. :smiley:

Is there any chance you can check this out and give me your thoughts on the split? I’m still on the Yates 3-way, as before, but I’ve made a few modifications.

I appreciate any input, help, or recommendations as usual.[/quote]

I’ll answer you in your log provided that I don’t forget about it :slight_smile:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
csjesse: Have a look through the last 5 pages or so and the “bodypart once weekly?”-thread in the T-Cell for some inspiration. I’ll write something up for you next time…
[/quote]

Read them both…lots of good info.

Do you recommend me doing/trying to figure out DC or BBB, or should I wait for your routine? I know you’re a busy guy :stuck_out_tongue:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
trextacy wrote:
Hey C_C, i found a blog by a guy that you may find interesting (or at least entertaining). I can’t post it (filters, for the loss) but if you look at a blogspot website blog called “chaosandpain” you will probably find the blog I’m talking about.

First off- I think you will enjoy reading it (it goes back to Feb) because it basically involves a strong lean dude putting up shitloads of weight, all the while talking shit about Rippetoe, Mentzer and other topics.

Also, the training methods/philosopies, etc. are interesting in that the rep schemes, split, nutritional approach and so forth are against most of the grain. It reminds me of the way Alpha trains and they have similar results (not overly heavy, but very strong, muscular and lean as natural trainees).

If you can wade through the bravado and hyperbole there are some really interesting points of view, and the guy has the results to back it up. He shits on things like 5x5, “hypertrophy” rep ranges, working muscles once weekly, Starting Strength, among other things. Since I have no problem suggesting a beginner use Rippetoe I found that particularly interesting and he makes valid points.

This is what would’ve been in the pm I alluded to you in another thread earlier this week. I know that the frequency is something that gives you pause (unless i’m reading previous posts wrong), but there is something very appealing to me about this sort of training, but of course I’m curious as to your thoughts.

Also, I got my MRI results today and there is no tear in my shoulder. I’m psyched…4-6 weeks of rest, ice, PT and I should be fine. I’m relieved. Just bone edema, muscle/tendon strain, etc. Nothing major.

Glad to hear that it was nothing serious.

I’ll read that log as soon as I have the time… Unfortunately, everyone in my area suddenly seems to require my services… Got 2 interesting cases here, guys with conditions that may make lifting and especially eating right really difficult. Not yet certain how to sort that out…
May well be out of my league, but I’m friends with a bunch of the docs around here who might be able to help.
[/quote]

I hear you on that one. Let me know what you come up with. I’ve had a few of those myself and they definitely make you think outside the box/on your feet.

BTW, this thread should be a sticky (or at least in the sticky link thread). There is enough information in here to keep someone going for years.

[quote]phrangan wrote:
C_C

Do you have any 4-5 days split beginner template in your arsenal?

My numbers (1 RM) are quite beginner level
BP - 185 lbs
Squat - 225
DL - 275
OHP - 95
BW chins - 25

BF - 13%-15% @ 5ft 11" abt 155lbs

BTW my dad owns a restaurant in Essen perhaps u can drop by for meal =)

Thanks in advance

[/quote]

Hm. Regular, everything once a week -frequency?

Day 1 - Chest, Back
-Incline Press variant
-Flat Press variant
-Backwidth exercise
-Backthickness exercise (usual rules apply, i.e. if you do deadlifts or rack pulls here, then don’t do SLDL’s or GM’s for hams on leg day… That kind of thing.)
(-possible additional exercise like face-pulls or just higher rep v-handle rows or whatever)

Day 2 - off

Day 3 - Legs+Abs (can be done calves hams quads or quads hams calves)
-Big Quad Exercise (you can do a widowmaker after a heavy set here, or use a different scheme), Front Squats (in that case I’d go non-failure, high-set, lower rep so you don’t end up choking yourself out), Back Squats, Leg Presses, Hack Machine etc.)
NOTE: If you want to do deadlifts on day 1 for back or so, and you want optimum low-bar backsquat (if you do them low-bar style) progress, move leg day to day 5 and day 4 to 3, 5 to 4.)

-Ham exercise (Lying Leg Curls, Reverse-hyper[preferred exercise if you have a rev-hyper machine available], glute-ham raises of any kind, SLDL’s, PL GM’s, Deadlifts [For the guys who can do squats and deads on the same day, or who prefer leg presses over squats, or who want a little more overall back emphasis… Move the day to day 5 then…
-Calf exercise
-Weighted ab exercise (important to counter low-back problems further down the road, chose some PL or oly movement here ala pulldown abs, situps with a plate behind the head, whatever)
-EZ Bar rollouts or AB wheel rollouts. (alternatively, do these on another day so that you have 2 ab sessions per week)

Day 4 - Delts+Traps
-Overhead Press variant (smith high incline, standing or seated DB press, seated high incline, push presses in the power or v-squat machines, HS ohp…)
-Lateral variant (machine if you have a good one, otherwise turn DB laterals into a semi-upright row, weights start in front of you with you slightly bent over at the hip joints, you forcefully raise them up, move elbows back somewhat and retract scapulae near the top, keep DB’s closer than usual to the body with elbows maybe bent 90 or so degrees at the top…)
-Rear delt work (either face pulls with less of an external rotation part or reverse-pec deck or so, for guys with a weak back, this is your chance to do some more cable rows or whatever, but use a wider grip and elbows out to hit the rear delts better and don’t go overboard with the volume, tomorrow is arms day)
-Trap exercise (those may hinder your deadlifts etc, so don’t go crazy with the volume here and see if you actually need one at all), do something I call greene shrugs (you stand slightly bent at the hip joint with knees loose and head forward to some degree… And you shrug not to your ears but to behind your head, if that makes sense… With scapular retraction and all that)

-Day 5 - Arms (if you do free-weight CGP, then those are done as first exercise of the workout. with a shoulder-width or so grip, depends, I like a thumbless grip… PL setup and execution of course, elbows tucked at the bottom, you can flare them out on the way up and then try to “pull the bar apart”.)
-Bicep-focused Curl variant (preferably with an off-set grip if it’s a DB curl)… ALt. Offset Curls for example.
-Brachialis/Brachioradialis-focused curl, like Pinwheels.
Note that the order of these exercises isn’t set in stone, you could even super-set them or whatever. Might want to do forearms last, several guys reported that doing any kind of press after forearm/brachialis curls like Pinwheels is problematic due to the fatigued grip despite the use of straps on pinwheels.
-Tricep Press variant (Free-weight CGP, In-Human Press, SWRGB, Board CGP, CGP off the pins, HS dips…)
-Tricep Extension or Pullover/extension hybrid variant (Dead Stop Extensions off the floor or off the bench, PJR’s, Bent-Forward Overhead Rope Extensions ala Justin Harris or Larry Scott… Avoid regular skull crushers/nose-breakers if tendonitis is something you’d like to avoid as much as possible for a very long time)

(yeah, you can add one more pumping exercise for both the bis and tris respectively, but you shouldn’t need to. Just choose a fitting set/rep/loading scheme for the regular arm exercises and don’t train like a pussy. A beginner doesn’t need 3 exercises each for bis and tris in one session… I don’t think anyone really does, but whatever)

-day 6 off
-day 7 off

A slightly altered 4-way for guys who want to give their bis and tris 2 sessions per week respectively (I prefer doing this with one arm exercise per arm session) and limit pressing to 2 days total rather than 3 (which you get with a direct delt day)

Day 1 - Chest+Tris (2 main chest exercises, one tri exercise like Dead Stop Extensions or PJR’s, then maybe face-pulls if you want, but not necessary)
Day 2 - Back+Bis (2-4 back exercises depending on volume per exercise… I usually just need 2 despite my lower volume, one width and one thickness, perhaps face pulls as an addition… Plus 1 bi-focused curl or so. )
Day 3 - off
Day 4 - Tris+Delts (free-weight CGP would go first, otherwise you can start off with a delt press… 1 press for each delts and tris, plus a tri extension/pullover-extension variant, laterals, rear-delt exericse and maybe shrugs)
Day 5 - Bis+Legs (a brachialis+brachioradialis exercise, plus some lighter bi-focused curl, say conc. curls or hs curls… Leg work comes after that, the usual… 1 exercise each for quads, hams, calves… Remember that quads like higher overall volume, so do a widowmaker or a few more non-failure sets or so on your quad exercise… Then you move onto ab work, 1-2 exercises, 1 weighted. Could also do ab work after back and split those 2 exercises between back and leg day)
day 6 - off
day 7 - off

Okay, just some 4-way suggestions.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

I hear you on that one. Let me know what you come up with[/quote] Will do, mail me what conditions your guys have if you want… If you have any such cases atm. [quote]. I’ve had a few of those myself and they definitely make you think outside the box/on your feet.
[/quote]
Yep, normal rules don’t usually apply there…

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
Hey C_Cizzle (I hope you don’t mind me calling you that lol) :slight_smile:

So, my chest development still blows and I’m thinking about changing things up. I had those goals of 405 incline and 500 bench and I already hit the 405 incline easy and I’m pretty sure I’m close to 500 on the bench. I’m thinking I need to put the ego away for a while and just focus on hypertrophy again since I think my chest is pretty much the one thing throwing off my upper body physique.

Anyways, I was thinking about pre fatiguing with some cable flys then moving on to my bench and incline workout using a wider grip and just working the bottom 1/2 range of motion.

Thoughts on that?

EDIT: Or I could do CGBP first as pre exhaust and save cables for the end

[/quote]

Still can’t manage to get your chest to do the work?
I’m no fan of pre-fatiguing… I get the idea and all that, but hm.

DB’s not helping? Do some lighter, higher volume DB work or some HS machine work?
Or just stick to higher reps in general… I find that when I go heavy on presses, my tris take over as they’re now probably my strongest pressing-muscle-group, same for my shoulders. Doing something like a double with my 2RM on the bench or incline is all delts and tris, no matter what I do (probably safer that way, too).

As for half-reps, go for it… Hey, make sure you do some heavy tricep and shoulder press work, but make your chest presses somewhat higher rep (perhaps even non-failure), maybe higher set-stuff… And stop the bar a few inches off the chest, as well as avoid lockout (or even the entire upper third of ROM)… Really control the negative there.

That should pretty much be mostly chest, no need to tuck your elbows much at all in that case… Start light… That kind of technique isn’t made for huge weights, but it should get your chest good, and you can keep your overall benching strength up thanks to the delt and tri pressing work.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
The.Mentalist wrote:
I read today that it’s suggested 5lbs onto the upperbody max lifts and 10lbs onto the lower max lifts each 4 weeks. Not sure if this is correct or false though.

cool, thanks[/quote]

Well, you got it 95 percent right. You add those 5/10 lbs to your training max every cycle (standard 5/3/1 cycles are longer than 4 weeks, that’s why I mention it, though I have several versions in my thread here that work in 4 week cycles… Kroc does/did them in 4-week cycles too, I think)

[quote]oski wrote:
hello cc. yeah my diet sux at the moment coz i still cant digest lots of food.(this is y im so low bodyfat atm). i will start going heavier soon on my lifts.i have big heart on small frame.(dont wanna push 100% just yet, 2 more months i will go all out) ive been doing chest and back twice a week.

heavy load on inclines in one day, and slightly higher reps on flat later on the week. i do rows heavy low reps[/quote] As long as you can still retract your scapulae on the way up…[quote] and later on the week i do higher reps and all pulldowns and chins. shoulders legs arms once a week. i do have sum medical issue. il put this up here so if anyone has any input please do so.

i had cancer 6 years ago. did chemo for 5 months responded well. later that year i had to get the tumors removed. had 3 of them.(cancer still visible). the problem was that chemo had burned the cancer and got stuck to my kidney, abdominal wall and on my lats, so they removed 1kidney[/quote] Ah… Not good. [quote], removed muscle from my abs n lats.

i also dont produce as much testosterone as normal male (other organ removed)doc said testosterone low[/quote] What about hormone-replacement therapy? Might want to ask a doc if the kidney is a problem, though. [quote]. this is the reason i lost intestine this time around. scar tissue build up from that big operation. i also sometimes get pain on my ribcage as they went through my ribs, cut cartilages between my ribs to get to my kidney from the front(surgical clips in place).

when i do go 100 per cent i would like to start fresh. so if you got any ideas cc please let me know. thanx… [/quote]
Difficult to give you advice in this case, and I’m no doctor either… If you were a local, we could visit a few medical people I know, but with the distance and all, your case is unfortunately out of my league.

How do those surgical clips and your abdominal wall react to high intra-abdominal pressure such as on deadlifts, squats etc?

If you can find some doctor who has a lot of experience with such surgeries as well as lifting (perhaps someone who treats bodybuilders, oly lifters or other strength athletes a lot), pay him/her a visit… (as long as it’s not some “I’ll give you a cortisone injection and it’ll be fine”-kind of guy).

Oh, and congratulations on surviving cancer!

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
The.Mentalist wrote:
If anyone could tell me, at the end of wave 4, do you test all you 1rm again so you that the 65%/75%/85% of week 1 are higher than the first time you did the 4 waves. Or do you just log everything and add like 5lbs to the 65% you first started with?

Thanks in advance

x2.

Googled 5/3/1 searched several sites, and never found this out.[/quote]

(was answered already, but just to add this: Don’t test your maxes all the time on 5-3-1… It’s a sub-maximal effort program, lots of maxing out will just mess up your training cycles and/or interfere with your gains)

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
MrTangerineSpedo wrote:

trextacy wrote:
Hey C_C, i found a blog by a guy that you may find interesting (or at least entertaining). I can’t post it (filters, for the loss) but if you look at a blogspot website blog called “chaosandpain” you will probably find the blog I’m talking about.

First off- I think you will enjoy reading it (it goes back to Feb) because it basically involves a strong lean dude putting up shitloads of weight, all the while talking shit about Rippetoe, Mentzer and other topics.

Also, the training methods/philosopies, etc. are interesting in that the rep schemes, split, nutritional approach and so forth are against most of the grain. It reminds me of the way Alpha trains and they have similar results (not overly heavy, but very strong, muscular and lean as natural trainees).

If you can wade through the bravado and hyperbole there are some really interesting points of view, and the guy has the results to back it up. He shits on things like 5x5, “hypertrophy” rep ranges, working muscles once weekly, Starting Strength, among other things. Since I have no problem suggesting a beginner use Rippetoe I found that particularly interesting and he makes valid points.

This is what would’ve been in the pm I alluded to you in another thread earlier this week. I know that the frequency is something that gives you pause (unless i’m reading previous posts wrong), but there is something very appealing to me about this sort of training, but of course I’m curious as to your thoughts.

Also, I got my MRI results today and there is no tear in my shoulder. I’m psyched…4-6 weeks of rest, ice, PT and I should be fine. I’m relieved. Just bone edema, muscle/tendon strain, etc. Nothing major.

Trextacy,
Thanks for mentioning that blog, the guy has a real entertaining writing style. I certainly don’t speak for C_C, but I haven’t seen him endorsing the “high risk - high reward” exercises like that guy does. I.e. behind the neck push presses or two hours of clean and press singles.

Ok… Got a few hours now.

As for that blog, I haven’t read everything yet, but this is what I think so far:

The guy is funny for sure, and he’s strong for his size.
That being said, he mentioned multiple injuries/surgeries etc… And I still don’t see the big problem with, say, adding in a few sets of curls or so here and there, or at least CGP’s… He has big traps and looks ridiculous from behind with his rather narrow triceps (which he also tore I believe, at least on one side), but balance is obviously not his goal) .

Dunno, he is largely what I would expect from someone training that way (and doing so with a vengeance).
Getting plenty of injuries, the muscle-groups that are the most-utilized in the exercises he does are the largest while others are somewhat underpowered etc… I’m not sure if that kind of training makes any sense for guys who aren’t part of the serious-lifter crowd (i.e. want to get as strong and/or as big [etc] as possible)… He enjoys lifting heavy shit for 1-3 reps and there you go.

There is also a transformation there, of a guy using his system over 80 days or so… Well, I can’t say that that transformation was any more impressive than the average 5x5/rippetoe (which he keeps ranting against) transformation. Guy gained practically no muscle, took his after pics standing much closer to the cam or mirror than the before pics… Only difference I see is his leanness. Strength gains weren’t all that grand if you ask me… Consider that that guy was basically a beginner with little muscle-mass and strength.

You all know my opinion on such routines, largely due to the injury-potential and because they don’t seem to provide any real benefits over less extreme approaches…

Risk vs. reward… I’d rather go with Alpha’s stuff. If you’re well-conditioned (or want to become just that) and not too old, why not…
[/quote]

thanks for the thoughtful reply. he did tear his tricep, but continued to train through it. he also has 2 or so days a week dedicated to arms where he does curls, tri extensions, etc. he had a log at ironsport and did plenty of that accessory work. not disagreeing w/ you, just pointing it out.

and i thought that one transformation he posted showed weight gain, with noticeably reduced bodyfat and pretty large % increases in the big lifts.

i’m also surprised that you would endorse alpha’s training over this guy’s. again, not trying to be contrary or argumentative, just trying to understand the thought process…reading over alpha’s template (and realizing he does it 4-5 days per week) sounds like way more risk for burnout/injury than sticking to singles and triples on big lifts 3 days per week w/ 2 accessory days.

i dunno-thanks for the feedback.