[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
My, my.
I’d be flattered and all, but I really think you just want me to have more time available for paying attention to you 
[/quote]
Rofl 
Nah i think your along the lines of me, always eager to help but bloody hell there’s helping to much to !
And anyway all we do is insult one another takes no time at all -_-
[quote]Gaius Octavius wrote:
Huh. That’s strange. I guess I’ll just repost my query here then. It has to do with how to structure my 5/3/1 workouts. You had mentioned something previously about needing to know how many times I’d like to hit the gym(five times a week would be the answer to that) and what kind of frequency I’d like(I would like to give higher frequency a try).
As for what I’ve been doing for assistance work, here goes:
Squats: Front squats and leg press
Military Press: DB Incline press, Seated Laterals, pullups
DL:Kroc rows
BP: Close grips, Incline Barbell press, pullups
Only three sets there done to failure with those being the leg press set(widowmaker), DB Incline Press and Seated laterals(lol)
It’s kinda random and suboptimal so I was looking for some suggestions on how to improve on it. I’m also not sure on how to handle the dealoads because I don’t think I’m lifting heavy enough to warrant dealoads every few weeks.[/quote]
This is a routine I’d used as an example for someone else, where your assistance work is set up so that you train most things twice per wave (but the waves are usually longer than 1 week… If you want to condense them to one week, you may want to avoid doing 2 low-back intensive lifts… Rather do front-squats on quad day with conv. deads on dead day, or sumo deads and back squats, or front-squats and sumo deads if you are doing SLDL/GM as ham assistance exercise. You get the idea):
[/quote]
Something along the lines of (assistance work obviously depends on strengths/weaknesses, preferences, injuries and whether you’re lifting equipped or raw)…
Example: (bis+legs+abs on 1 day, rest of upper body on other day):
Squat day
-bicep/brachialis exercise (doesn’t take much out of you and warms up the elbows some, better to do this first compared to last or else you won’t be able to do it any justice), if you’re doing brachialis (pinwheels, hammers) on deadlift day, then do biceps here (alt. offset grip curls)
OHP Day
-5 3 1 OHP variant
-Back exercise(s), either 1 or two (i.e. pullups + machine rows or some such… Backwidth and thickness… I wouldn’t do krocs on this day, you want to be able to lock out your deadlifts on dl day after all)
-Tricep work ala board presses, in-humans, SWRGB’s, PJR’s, Dead Extensions, Bent-Over Overhead Extensions, whatever… Basically where your fatigued shoulders won’t interfere much and)
Deadlift day
-5 3 1 pulls
-quad exercise (leg presses, hack machine facing the back pad, leg extensions, whatever floats your boat and doesn’t involve much low-back)
-Bicep/brachialis exercise (pinwheels, alt. hammers, alt. offset curls… Those are pretty much the only exercises I’d suggest for a powerlifter for the arm flexors… Shouldn’t bother the wrists or anything compared to bar curls and pinwheels are to curls what kroc rows are to rows)
-weighted ab exercise, you know the deal
(Could add some ham exercise if for some reason deads don’t do much for your hams)
Bench day
ok, two variants depending on what you chose as your 5 3 1 exercise:
either
1
-5 3 1 bench/incline
-Tricep exercise (bent-over overhead rope extensions or PJR’s or dead extensions or whatever, could also be a press if you feel like doing that much heavy pressing per week, in-humans and swrgb’s help in that case as your shoulders aren’t stressed as much)
-back work (1-2 exercises, width+thickness or just thickness… You can do kroc rows here since you’ve got DL’s out of the way)
-laterals if you want or some machine overhead work, but I’d not overdo the pressing
OR
2:
-5 3 1 CGP or other tricep press/lockout excercise
-DB chest work
-Back work (1-2 exercises as above)
-Laterals if you want
Sets/reps on assistance work… Whatever you want, I’d go with
-1 top set for moderate to high reps if you want to give your joints/tendons a rest (also works very well in general imo, saves time too)
or
-2 top sets at different rep ranges (heavy+light, like 6-8+9-12 or whatever)
-DC rest-pause, but don’t use it on everything… RP rep range and which exercises you can use it on = same as in DC, read stickies on intensemuscle forum → doggpound
-3x5 or the usual crap, just rather err on the side of low volume than high.
-1 top set of whatever, followed by another heavier set if you made your rep goal on the first, or keep the weight the same for the second set if you didn’t get enough reps on the first.
Just some suggestions. The routine above may work a little better for assisted guys than raw people, raw may need more off-the-chest-strength work and perhaps more quad and ab work, depends.
[quote]
[quote]300andabove wrote:
And Pumped i DID say it was not all directed at you
[/quote]
For some reason I read that as “side note for just you pumped” lol
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
On another note, I’m curious as to pumped340’s training history and numbers. I mean, you’ve been asking about every single little method and whatnot, I’m a little afraid that you keep changing your approach every single time you read something new… Just make sure you actually make some real tangible progress man.
[/quote]
I’ve heard people think that before, but I just like to ask a lot of questions :). Whenever I see a new training method I like to really see what it’s about and ask questions regarding things that aren’t clear to me. I may store it away for a later time (like I have with BBB and DC) but I never switch what I’m doing based on the newest thing or what looks cool, I tend to stay consistent. I had been doing the same routine for 5 months before switching to 5/3/1 and even when I did make the switch it was only because many exercises were beginning to stall and even then I only changed about half the lifts to go with the overall 5/3/1 structure, and still kept the same weekly structure to my workouts (2 push days, 2 upper push/leg days).
As for training history, I’ve been training for a little over 3 years. I’ve been about 20lb. heavier than I am now but came down significantly from an injury, although I’m still as strong as I’ve ever been so I guess the 1 plus is that I’m stronger pound for pound now.
Here’s my journal if your interested in my lifts http://www.ironaddicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22418
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Gaius Octavius wrote:
Huh. That’s strange. I guess I’ll just repost my query here then. It has to do with how to structure my 5/3/1 workouts. You had mentioned something previously about needing to know how many times I’d like to hit the gym(five times a week would be the answer to that) and what kind of frequency I’d like(I would like to give higher frequency a try).
As for what I’ve been doing for assistance work, here goes:
Squats: Front squats and leg press
Military Press: DB Incline press, Seated Laterals, pullups
DL:Kroc rows
BP: Close grips, Incline Barbell press, pullups
Only three sets there done to failure with those being the leg press set(widowmaker), DB Incline Press and Seated laterals(lol)
It’s kinda random and suboptimal so I was looking for some suggestions on how to improve on it. I’m also not sure on how to handle the dealoads because I don’t think I’m lifting heavy enough to warrant dealoads every few weeks.
This is a routine I’d used as an example for someone else, where your assistance work is set up so that you train most things twice per wave (but the waves are usually longer than 1 week… If you want to condense them to one week, you may want to avoid doing 2 low-back intensive lifts… Rather do front-squats on quad day with conv. deads on dead day, or sumo deads and back squats, or front-squats and sumo deads if you are doing SLDL/GM as ham assistance exercise. You get the idea):
Something along the lines of (assistance work obviously depends on strengths/weaknesses, preferences, injuries and whether you’re lifting equipped or raw)…
Example: (bis+legs+abs on 1 day, rest of upper body on other day):
Squat day
-bicep/brachialis exercise (doesn’t take much out of you and warms up the elbows some, better to do this first compared to last or else you won’t be able to do it any justice), if you’re doing brachialis (pinwheels, hammers) on deadlift day, then do biceps here (alt. offset grip curls)
OHP Day
-5 3 1 OHP variant
-Back exercise(s), either 1 or two (i.e. pullups + machine rows or some such… Backwidth and thickness… I wouldn’t do krocs on this day, you want to be able to lock out your deadlifts on dl day after all)
-Tricep work ala board presses, in-humans, SWRGB’s, PJR’s, Dead Extensions, Bent-Over Overhead Extensions, whatever… Basically where your fatigued shoulders won’t interfere much and)
Deadlift day
-5 3 1 pulls
-quad exercise (leg presses, hack machine facing the back pad, leg extensions, whatever floats your boat and doesn’t involve much low-back)
-Bicep/brachialis exercise (pinwheels, alt. hammers, alt. offset curls… Those are pretty much the only exercises I’d suggest for a powerlifter for the arm flexors… Shouldn’t bother the wrists or anything compared to bar curls and pinwheels are to curls what kroc rows are to rows)
-weighted ab exercise, you know the deal
(Could add some ham exercise if for some reason deads don’t do much for your hams)
Bench day
ok, two variants depending on what you chose as your 5 3 1 exercise:
either
1
-5 3 1 bench/incline
-Tricep exercise (bent-over overhead rope extensions or PJR’s or dead extensions or whatever, could also be a press if you feel like doing that much heavy pressing per week, in-humans and swrgb’s help in that case as your shoulders aren’t stressed as much)
-back work (1-2 exercises, width+thickness or just thickness… You can do kroc rows here since you’ve got DL’s out of the way)
-laterals if you want or some machine overhead work, but I’d not overdo the pressing
OR
2:
-5 3 1 CGP or other tricep press/lockout excercise
-DB chest work
-Back work (1-2 exercises as above)
-Laterals if you want
Sets/reps on assistance work… Whatever you want, I’d go with
-1 top set for moderate to high reps if you want to give your joints/tendons a rest (also works very well in general imo, saves time too)
or
-2 top sets at different rep ranges (heavy+light, like 6-8+9-12 or whatever)
-DC rest-pause, but don’t use it on everything… RP rep range and which exercises you can use it on = same as in DC, read stickies on intensemuscle forum → doggpound
-3x5 or the usual crap, just rather err on the side of low volume than high.
-1 top set of whatever, followed by another heavier set if you made your rep goal on the first, or keep the weight the same for the second set if you didn’t get enough reps on the first.
Just some suggestions. The routine above may work a little better for assisted guys than raw people, raw may need more off-the-chest-strength work and perhaps more quad and ab work, depends.
[/quote]
This looks like a good template. Here’s what I came up with, using it:
5/3/1 squat day:
Rest Paused BB Curls
5/3/1 Squats
Rack Pulls (I’ve never had the chance to do these before and seeing as how I’m using Snatch Grip deadlifts instead of regular deadlifts, I wanted to throw them in for upper back growth)
Standing Ab Pulldowns
Ham stretching+calf stretcing
5/3/1 Military day
5/3/1 Military
Pullups
DB overhead extension
5/3/1 deadlift day:
5/3/1 snatch grip deadlift
Widowmaker leg press set
10 minutes to recover spleen from under the hack squat machine
Pinwheels
Situps with plate behind head
5/3/1 Bench day
5/3/1 bench
Close Grip 2-board presses
Kroc Rows
Lateral Raises
Think this is too low back intensive? Either way, thanks for the help.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Gaius Octavius wrote:
Did you get my PM, C_C?
My pm’s/hub have been disabled.
[/quote]
This is BULLSHIT. The powers that be have stated that even Mr. Patterson HIMSELF wants people to participate in the forums and exchange of ideas (or something to that effect) and one of THE most HELPFUL people on this site has been monitored/censored?!!
God. DAMNIT!
sorry for the hijack, carry on - I woulda just PMed C_C but…HA!
His PM’s have been gone ages lol.
And to be honest i think in a way he is glad
Reduces the questions by 1/2 when people post them on the forums, poor guy lol
[quote]300andabove wrote:
NewDamage wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Gaius Octavius wrote:
Did you get my PM, C_C?
My pm’s/hub have been disabled.
This is BULLSHIT. The powers that be have stated that even Mr. Patterson HIMSELF wants people to participate in the forums and exchange of ideas (or something to that effect) and one of THE most HELPFUL people on this site has been monitored/censored?!!
God. DAMNIT!
sorry for the hijack, carry on - I woulda just PMed C_C but…HA!
His PM’s have been gone ages lol.
And to be honest i think in a way he is glad
Reduces the questions by 1/2 when people post them on the forums, poor guy lol[/quote]
True that. 1/2 though? More like 1/20th lol
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
It might be due to me mentioning sources where people can buy protein powder in bulk and create their own mix etc… Only did that over pm though, mostly anyway
My fault I suppose.
[/quote]
If you email TC@T-Nation.com and profess your sorriness, along with pointing out your a great asset to this site… i’m sure he will give you a 2nd chance.
[quote]Gaius Octavius wrote:
This looks like a good template. Here’s what I came up with, using it:
5/3/1 squat day:
Rest Paused BB Curls
5/3/1 Squats
Rack Pulls (I’ve never had the chance to do these before and seeing as how I’m using Snatch Grip deadlifts instead of regular deadlifts, I wanted to throw them in for upper back growth) [/quote] You’d have to pull from a very low setting to get enough hamstring involvement though… [quote]
Standing Ab Pulldowns
Ham stretching+calf stretcing
5/3/1 Military day
5/3/1 Military
Pullups
DB overhead extension
5/3/1 deadlift day:
5/3/1 snatch grip deadlift
Widowmaker leg press set
10 minutes to recover spleen from under the hack squat machine
Pinwheels[/quote] If you’re doing a widow set on the leg press, move the pinwheels up a slot perhaps so you still have enough left in the tank to be able to do them any justice. [quote]
Situps with plate behind head
5/3/1 Bench day
5/3/1 bench
Close Grip 2-board presses
Kroc Rows
Lateral Raises
Think this is too low back intensive? Either way, thanks for the help.[/quote]
Rack pulls are a great upper back move, but with kroc rows etc in the same week… I’d rather see you do Yates Rows (don’t have to be supinated) or some other row after pullups on military day and GH raises or rev hyper machine as a ham movement on squat day… It’s your call, but all that heavy pulling + kroc rows and so on is going to take it’s toll on you one way or another.
(don’t take out the kroc’s though, you need all the good rows you can get to keep your shoulders stable)
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
You’d have to pull from a very low setting to get enough hamstring involvement though…[/quote]
I was actually thinking that Snatch Grip deadlifts/squats were enough hamstring work. Totally wrong here? My form on both exercises is pretty posterior chain dominant.
Yeah, that would make sense:P
[quote]Rack pulls are a great upper back move, but with kroc rows etc in the same week… I’d rather see you do Yates Rows (don’t have to be supinated) or some other row after pullups on military day and GH raises or rev hyper machine as a ham movement on squat day… It’s your call, but all that heavy pulling + kroc rows and so on is going to take it’s toll on you one way or another.
[/quote]
Don’t have access to a glute ham machine nor to a reverse hyper. Gym is quite new and equipment is still being added though so I might be able to add them later, but not right now. You don’t think there is any way I can keep rack pulls in but still do 5/3/1 PLing style? I want to give them a spin as I’ve never been able to before(crappy gyms) but if it’s going to lead to me stalling with no progress…well then I obviously can’t include them. You don’t think that the frequent deloads + my relative beginner status will allow me to get away with it?
[quote]Gaius Octavius wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
You’d have to pull from a very low setting to get enough hamstring involvement though…
I was actually thinking that Snatch Grip deadlifts/squats were enough hamstring work. Totally wrong here? My form on both exercises is pretty posterior chain dominant. [/quote] Squats, nah. While PL stance (at least equipped, raw squatters still need some quad work as you don’t squat with nearly as wide a stance and don’t have a suit to sit back into like the equipped guys) is posterior chain -intensive, I’d suggest picking a real ham exercise. Hams can never be too strong… That would bring your ham frequency up to 2/week, due to snatch grip deads and whatever ham thing you choose.
Back squats alone… Why do powerlifters still do lots of ham work if deads and squats would be all that’s needed, know what I mean? [quote]
If you’re doing a widow set on the leg press, move the pinwheels up a slot perhaps so you still have enough left in the tank to be able to do them any justice.
Yeah, that would make sense:P
Rack pulls are a great upper back move, but with kroc rows etc in the same week… I’d rather see you do Yates Rows (don’t have to be supinated) or some other row after pullups on military day and GH raises or rev hyper machine as a ham movement on squat day… It’s your call, but all that heavy pulling + kroc rows and so on is going to take it’s toll on you one way or another.
Don’t have access to a glute ham machine nor to a reverse hyper. Gym is quite new and equipment is still being added though so I might be able to add them later, but not right now. You don’t think there is any way I can keep rack pulls in but still do 5/3/1 PLing style[/quote] Yes, use rack pulls as your 5 3 1 exercise on “back” day instead of snatch grip deads. (seriously, but then you really need extra ham work) [quote]? I want to give them a spin as I’ve never been able to before(crappy gyms) but if it’s going to lead to me stalling with no progress…well then I obviously can’t include them. You don’t think that the frequent deloads + my relative beginner status will allow me to get away with it?
[/quote] What numbers are you putting up?
[quote]300andabove wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
It might be due to me mentioning sources where people can buy protein powder in bulk and create their own mix etc… Only did that over pm though, mostly anyway
My fault I suppose.
If you email TC@T-Nation.com and profess your sorriness, along with pointing out your a great asset to this site… i’m sure he will give you a 2nd chance.[/quote]
And re-open the floodgates? Hmm. You know, I think I like it better this way
(seriously, I used to spend hours answering pm’s and writing routines etc for people before I finally could read and comment on the regular forum posts)
CC, I lied yesterday when I said I didn’t have any questions I guess… he he he. Can you help a guy out with his 5/3/1 set up? I am just finishing up my deload week of the first cycle. I followed the book exactly with the Boring But Big workout. So that means as you know that I didn’t do any direct arm work, calves, etc.
I followed the four day a week model. I was hoping you could help me out with how much of that stuff I should add and where. I’m a natty regular joe. I would like to watch my volume to ensure I progress but as I’m not a powerlifter I don’t feel like not doing a curl for six months either. I already feel a bit weaker at the top of my bench press from not doing any close grip benches this last month. But maybe thats in my head.
So I could keep following boring but big for all 4 lifts and just add on an exercise or two for bis, tris, and calves or I could abandon BBB and follow a more traditional BB split besides those 4 lifts. Inlcines for chest assistance instead of more flat work etc. I’m just trying to be smart about it. Any thoughts?
Quit trying to get CC in trouble, the last thing we need is for his forum posting to be taken away as well
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Squats, nah. While PL stance (at least equipped, raw squatters still need some quad work as you don’t squat with nearly as wide a stance and don’t have a suit to sit back into like the equipped guys) is posterior chain -intensive, I’d suggest picking a real ham exercise. Hams can never be too strong… That would bring your ham frequency up to 2/week, due to snatch grip deads and whatever ham thing you choose.
Back squats alone… Why do powerlifters still do lots of ham work if deads and squats would be all that’s needed, know what I mean? [/quote]
Hamstring move it is then. I guess I’ll give good mornings a whirl.
On my 5/3/1 week I put up 150kg8 on squats, 155kg9 on the Snatch Grip deadlift, 60kg8 on the Military Press and 102.5kg5 on the Bench Press.
[quote]DJS wrote:
CC, I lied yesterday when I said I didn’t have any questions I guess… he he he. Can you help a guy out with his 5/3/1 set up? I am just finishing up my deload week of the first cycle. I followed the book exactly with the Boring But Big workout. So that means as you know that I didn’t do any direct arm work, calves, etc.
I followed the four day a week model. I was hoping you could help me out with how much of that stuff I should add and where. I’m a natty regular joe. I would like to watch my volume to ensure I progress but as I’m not a powerlifter I don’t feel like not doing a curl for six months either. I already feel a bit weaker at the top of my bench press from not doing any close grip benches this last month. But maybe thats in my head.
So I could keep following boring but big for all 4 lifts and just add on an exercise or two for bis, tris, and calves or I could abandon BBB and follow a more traditional BB split besides those 4 lifts. Inlcines for chest assistance instead of more flat work etc. I’m just trying to be smart about it. Any thoughts?[/quote]
Have a look at that those 2 different routines I posted recently in here. (first one was 5/3/1 on a 4-way split with 1 week waves and every muscle-group hit once a week.
The other one was similar but with regular 5 3 1 frequency (4 workouts over 3 days per week cycled) where bodyparts are hit as frequently (1.5/week) as in DC via assistance work, pretty much same number of exercises etc… I’d look into that one if I were you.
Also, I’d suggest using the 65, 75, 85 table for loading parameters for 5 3 1 exercises (i.e. the table were those numbers make up wave 1) and only do, as mentioned in my other posts, either 1 top set, 2 top sets (different weight perhaps) or 1 RP set (where appropriate and don’t use it too much) or so (perhaps 3x5 but I wouldn’t do it) on your assistance exercises. 1 top set approach will keep the workload especially manageable…
Post your exercise selection etc once you’ve decided (or if you decide to use the template(s) at all).
[quote]Gaius Octavius wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Squats, nah. While PL stance (at least equipped, raw squatters still need some quad work as you don’t squat with nearly as wide a stance and don’t have a suit to sit back into like the equipped guys) is posterior chain -intensive, I’d suggest picking a real ham exercise. Hams can never be too strong… That would bring your ham frequency up to 2/week, due to snatch grip deads and whatever ham thing you choose.
Back squats alone… Why do powerlifters still do lots of ham work if deads and squats would be all that’s needed, know what I mean?
Hamstring move it is then. I guess I’ll give good mornings a whirl.
[/quote] If you have a lying leg curl machine, you could try doing GH raises in it… Might help if someone sat on the pad though, depending on how much you weigh. Pull-throughs are another option.
GM’s are pretty low-back intensive (I’d do the PL variant, not the “head between the legs”-bodybuilding thing
[quote]
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:What numbers are you putting up?
On my 5/3/1 week I put up 150kg8 on squats, 155kg9 on the Snatch Grip deadlift, 60kg8 on the Military Press[/quote] That one needs to come up. Might be an idea to stop at chin level btw. Easier on the shoulders in my case at least and the lower part of ROM doesn’t do anything, really… [quote] and 102.5kg5 on the Bench Press.[/quote]
Well, yeah, you’re not all that strong on pressing exercises, but your squat and snatch grip dead are already in “low-back-frying” territory I’d say. So careful with those GM’s and your low-back in general. Lotsa heavy ab work!
[quote]forlife wrote:
Quit trying to get CC in trouble, the last thing we need is for his forum posting to be taken away as well ;)[/quote]
Hahaha, shit, I’d suddenly have my life back…
That’d be like a kid who has been locked away in the basement for all his life coming free… Wouldn’t know what to do with all that new-found freedom LOL
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
If you have a lying leg curl machine, you could try doing GH raises in it… Might help if someone sat on the pad though, depending on how much you weigh. Pull-throughs are another option.
GM’s are pretty low-back intensive (I’d do the PL variant, not the “head between the legs”-bodybuilding thing [/quote]
Don’t pull throughs hurt your balls? I guess I’ll try those GH raises then.
I know, my shoulders pretty much blow and my pressing in general is less than stellar. Could a long wingspan have anything to do with it?
Anyway, thanks man.