Cephalic Carnage: How Do You Train?

Training Bodybuilding
301

[quote]crod266 wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
crod266 wrote:
ok cc, question 4 ya i have a week a and week b so each week i rotate exercises, my question is is this really necessary unless like im huge. Like should i not worry about this till im much larger and stall out alot easier?

Uh, too little data :slight_smile:

haha ok in that case this in my routine below, I had the week a and week b which i switch to off every other week from one to the other so i dont stall out. But my question is, is besides the deads and squats because of low back does anything else need to be rotated at this stage in the game. I mean should i just wait till im much stronger to do that?

mon-
leg press calf raise-1 top set of 8-15
lying leg curl-1 top set of 8-12
back squat-heavy set 4-8
wm back squat 15-22
reverse hyper-12-15

wed-
hs incline press-8-15
db bench press-5-8
alt offset db curls-4-8 a side
pinwheels-5-10 a side
cybex curl machine-10-20
in-human smith presses-8-15
pjr pullovers-8-15

friday-
db high incline presses-6-10
then another lighter set of 10-15
cable laterals-10-15(i can never progress on these ha)
rack chins-6-12
deadlifts-6-8
lighter set of 8-12
some type of shoulder saver

week b

mon-
some type of calf machine-8-15
gluteham raise-set of as many bw
1 leg leg curl-8-15 per leg
hack squat-4-6
wm 15-22

wed-incline bench-8-15
hs decline bench-4-8
incine curls both arms as same time-5-8
1-arm reverse cable curls-8-15
hs curls-10-20
hs dips-8-15
lying e-z bar extensions-8-15

friday-
hs shoulder press-6-8
lighter set of 10-15
db 1 arm at a time side laterals-10-15
d handle lat pulldown-5-8
hs low row-12-22 per arm

I also do all the extreme stretches besides arms[/quote]

Well, look. You can, if you want, take the second cycle out and just repeat cycle a over and overā€¦ If you manage to progress at a good rate anyway, then keep doing that until you stall (and diet isnā€™t responsible). Then add the second rotation back in.

You could also just keep the rotation in.
Is there a specific problem with it, anyway? Progression is the main thing, so if thatā€™s still happening, no need to change anything unless you run into some sort of problem.

302

Incline bench, decline bench, bench press 11-15
Seated DB MP, Lateral raises(15-30), SHIPS 11-20
PJR, Paused floor skulls, SRGBP 15-30
Rack chins, weighted chins, lat pulldowns(15-30) 11-15
(back thickness, my low back was injured so Iā€™ve been doing chest supported stuff, going to give deadlifts a try next week)

Incline DB curl, Spider curl, Seated DB curl 15-30
Hammer curl, RG Cable curl, Pinwheels Straight set, 15-25
Squats, Leg Press, Front squats Heavy set, widowmaker
Glute hams, lying leg curl, (was SLDL, now seated leg curl due to back)12-20

I havenā€™t been doing calves DC style, I gave it about 2 months and didnā€™t see any growth so Iā€™m doing them RPā€™d with slow negatives.

303

[quote]DaveyD wrote:
Incline bench, decline bench, bench press 11-15 [/quote] Flat Bench 11-15RP in DC? Someone didnā€™t read the stickies. Replace that with Dips, perhaps. Get a little more tricep stimulation to help bring your arms up. Rep Range 12-20RP, start high. [quote]
Seated DB MP, Lateral raises(15-30)[/quote]!? Unless those are Skip Laterals or similar, Iā€™d really replace them with something else. DB OHP seated, facing the backrest are a nice one, as are V-squat push presses and such. [quote], SHIPS 11-20
PJR, Paused floor skulls, SRGBP 15-30 [/quote] SWRGB can be 12-20RP though, but itā€™s up to you. Might want to include In-Human presses or Board CGP as well instead of PJRā€™s in this case, perhapsā€¦ Stubborn tris often come up with enough heavy pressingā€¦ Another nice exercise thatā€™s worked for my long head are bent-over rope extensions (see justin H. vid, but I use more of a pullover motion as well. ) [quote]
Rack chins, weighted chins, lat pulldowns(15-30) 11-15 [/quote] 11-15 has no place in a backwidth rotation imoā€¦ At that weight youā€™re likely going to use too much brachialis and too little lats, + injury factor (bicep tendon). Do your lat pulldowns with a V/close-neutral handle. (extra bicep but with less chance of injury than chins and such)[quote]
(back thickness, my low back was injured so Iā€™ve been doing chest supported stuff, going to give deadlifts a try next week)[/quote] Kroc Rows. [quote]

Incline DB curl[/quote] Use an off-set grip (thumbs and index fingers touching innermost plate of bell [quote], Spider curl[/quote] Nah, ditch that. Standing Alt. DB Curls, also with offset-grip. [quote], Seated DB curl 15-30 [/quote] Try Danteā€™s one-db hammer preachers or EZ Drag Curls or so. 15-30 the former and 12-20 the latter I believe.[quote]
Hammer curl, RG Cable curl, Pinwheels Straight set, 15-25 [/quote] 12-20 or 10-20 [quote]
Squats, Leg Press, Front squats Heavy set, widowmaker
Glute hams, lying leg curl, (was SLDL, now seated leg curl due to back)12-20 [/quote] 15-30 on leg curls imo [quote]

I havenā€™t been doing calves DC style, I gave it about 2 months and didnā€™t see any growth so Iā€™m doing them RPā€™d with slow negatives. [/quote] There is an alternative protocol for especially stubborn calves. In one of Danteā€™s random thoughts threads (the newer one, not stickied I think) [quote]
[/quote]

304

I did read the stickies, Iā€™m just an idiot who likes to flat bench. On dips I stopped progressing, worked up to BW+150x8-10, maybe I could go back to themā€¦ Those are skip laterals, my mistype. So you think 15-30 for backwidth? Kroc rows were irritating my low back, and we only have 120lb dbs, but I could go back to super high rep ones I guess now that Iā€™m better. Iā€™ll incorporate the bicep suggestions in, drop the rep range on the forearm stuff, and check out the calf stuff. Thanks!

305

[quote]DaveyD wrote:
I did read the stickies, Iā€™m just an idiot who likes to flat bench[/quote] Then make it 2 straight sets (or one) or 15-30RP/20-30RP. You have been warned. [quote]. On dips I stopped progressing, worked up to BW+150x8-10, maybe I could go back to themā€¦[/quote] Well, I just put them in there for some added tricep emphasis. Those are skip laterals, my mistype. So you think 15-30 for backwidth?[/quote] Yeahā€¦ 12-20 at the least, and only on actual pull-ups perhaps. [quote] Kroc rows were irritating my low back[/quote] Then you must be doing something wrong!? Strange. [quote], and we only have 120lb dbs, but I could go back to super high rep ones I guess now that Iā€™m better. Iā€™ll incorporate the bicep suggestions in, drop the rep range on the forearm stuff, and check out the calf stuff. Thanks![/quote]
Ok then.

Not much more you can do to bring up your arms on the 2-way, exercise-selection-wise.

How have you been progressing on your arm exercises over the last 2-3 months?

306

Ah, I forgot:

DB or BB floor presses into your chest rotation, also work pretty well for tris.

DB presses of any kind with elbows semi-tucked at 45 degrees from the body or so, roughly, also generally hit the tris to a good degree while still working the chest enough.

Ditch the skip laterals and do v-squat or power-squat push presses (check the 900 and 800 lb vids from BN on intensemuscle or in that t-cell thread about exercise/machine variations). Hit the tris a lot as well as the shoulders, another way to bring up your arms.

307

Hope the Anorexic German is doing ok :slight_smile:

Still busy as ever answering questions i see, gonna need a Part 2,3,4,5,6,7,9 soon eh :stuck_out_tongue:

Been crazy busy at work, rushing a project on a new ā€œwonder drugā€ so been 100% occupied 24/7

I shall try drop in if i can, and again hope your doing well Ceph :slight_smile:

308

[quote]300andabove wrote:
Still busy as ever answering questions i see, gonna need a Part 2,3,4,5,6,7,9 soon eh :stuck_out_tongue:
[/quote]

No kidding. C_C is hands down the most valuable and helpful member on T-Nation. No disrespect to any other notable members.

309

[quote]300andabove wrote:
Hope the Anorexic German is doing ok :slight_smile:

Still busy as ever answering questions i see, gonna need a Part 2,3,4,5,6,7,9 soon eh :stuck_out_tongue:

But seriously hope all is well with you, i WOULD pm you, but the powers that be deny it so iā€™ll post here.

Been crazy busy at work, rushing a project on a new ā€œwonder drugā€ so been 100% occupied 24/7 [/quote] Speed has already been invented. Try again. :slight_smile: [quote]

I shall try drop in if i can, and again hope your doing well Ceph :)[/quote]

Youā€™re being too nice, somethingā€™s wrong.

lol

Anywayā€¦ Howā€™s training going for you?

310

[quote]kylec72 wrote:
300andabove wrote:
Still busy as ever answering questions i see, gonna need a Part 2,3,4,5,6,7,9 soon eh :stuck_out_tongue:

No kidding. C_C is hands down the most valuable and helpful member on T-Nation. No disrespect to any other notable members.[/quote]

Iā€™d say there are about 5-6 female members on here who are much more helpful, really.
But thanks :wink:

311

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
ā€¦ Stubborn tris often come up with enough heavy pressingā€¦ Another nice exercise thatā€™s worked for my long head are bent-over rope extensions (see justin H. vid, but I use more of a pullover motion as well. ) ā€¦
[/quote]

Is that the one that looks like a rope tricep-kickback (no hate pls ;')) from the middle of a cable stack?

312

[quote]Mad_Duck wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
ā€¦ Stubborn tris often come up with enough heavy pressingā€¦ Another nice exercise thatā€™s worked for my long head are bent-over rope extensions (see justin H. vid, but I use more of a pullover motion as well. ) ā€¦

Is that the one that looks like a rope tricep-kickback (no hate pls ;')) from the middle of a cable stack?

[/quote]

No.

Like this (but as I said, I use a bit of a pullover motionā€¦ And you need strong abs, depending on the pulley-station lol):

313

Hey CC, you asked what my routine/diet was in BOI

everything is 10, 8, 6, 8, 9. iā€™ve been doing that rep scheme for about 3 months.
monday- biā€™s- bb curl, incline db curls, seated preachers triā€™s- close grip pressdown, close grip bench, skull crushers
tuesday- squats, leg press, deadlifts, leg curls, calf raises (sometimes hallway lunges at the end)
wednesday- off
thursday- chest- bb bench, bb incline, cable flyes shoulders- overhead bb, upright bb row, lateral raises
friday- back- lat pulldowns, close grip t-bar with a bb, wide grip seated rows
cardio- not much, but i play intermural sports at my college

diet- around 3000 calories/day, about 200g protein/day, 1 fruit 1 vegetable/day. I mostly cook for myself so breakfasts are usually 3 scrambled eggs, buttered toast, oj, some kind of fruit, lunches- footlong deli sandwiches plain, only meat and cheese, dinners- meat and potatoes, chicken breast and rice, salmon and wild rice, stuff like that with a bowl of uncooked spinach and spoonfull of ranch. snacks are usually plain greek yogurt, string cheese, apples, soy protein shakes (cause its cheap).

Any input? iā€™ve seen a lot of your posts and respect your advice.

314

Hey CC, after we talked a few weeks ago I incorporated cluster pull ups once a week into my training. It doesnā€™t seem to be going to well though. Looking to get 20 total reps hereā€™s how it went:

Week 1: 5,5,5,5
Week 2: 5,5,4,3,3 (added 5lb)
Week 3: 5,4,3,3,3,2 (added 5lb)
Week 4: 4,3,3,3,2,2,2 (added 5lb)

So each week Iā€™ve had to add another set to get the 20 reps and this last week (today) it ended up being 7 sets and I stopped at 19 reps. This seems like terrible progress especially when you consider many expect to keep set x rep scheme the same while adding weight. I havenā€™t had one workout where another set wasnā€™t necessary to hit the reps. Any suggestions? I donā€™t know where to go at this point.

Thanks

315

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Hey CC, after we talked a few weeks ago I incorporated cluster pull ups once a week into my training. It doesnā€™t seem to be going to well though. Looking to get 20 total reps hereā€™s how it went:

Week 1: 5,5,5,5
Week 2: 5,5,4,3,3 (added 5lb)
Week 3: 5,4,3,3,3,2 (added 5lb)
Week 4: 4,3,3,3,2,2,2 (added 5lb)

So each week Iā€™ve had to add another set to get the 20 reps and this last week (today) it ended up being 7 sets and I stopped at 19 reps. This seems like terrible progress especially when you consider many expect to keep set x rep scheme the same while adding weight. I havenā€™t had one workout where another set wasnā€™t necessary to hit the reps. Any suggestions? I donā€™t know where to go at this point.

Thanks[/quote]

Your reps are supposed to go down as you add weight. This is not a fixed set/rep scheme.
Btw, did you go to failure on any of those cluster sets? I hope not, because youā€™re not supposed to :slight_smile: (thatā€™s the difference between cluster training and rest-pause, mostly).

As fatty said, you start with roughly 60 percent of your estimated/tested 1RM and add weight from there, he at first did 50 total reps per session 5 times or so per week. Then had to cut that down to 25 as 50 was probably a little too much.

I do think he stayed with his bodyweight at first though instead of adding weightā€¦ Until he could do sets of 10 or so? Not entirely certain, might wish to ask him.

Anyway, I suggest you do pullups 4 times per week then maybe (careful though, donā€™t bust your bi tendons) and at first just try to get 25 total reps per session with your bodyweight in as many non-failure sets (rest as needed, longer the more weight youā€™re using later on in relation to your 1RM) as you need.
Maybe increase weight once a week, or perhaps twice if your reps are shooting up, but just do that first week with no more than your bodyweight.

Ok, letā€™s see how that works for you. Fatty has the exact protocol, ask him if you need more details. I used the above, but not for long (just didnā€™t fit into my routine back then and I also needed a break from training, but it did get my pullups up from a puny 5-6 [hey, last time I did them was at 210-220 or so] to 12 in a little over a weekā€¦)

316

[quote]UFgator11 wrote:
Hey CC, you asked what my routine/diet was in BOI

everything is 10, 8, 6, 8, 9. iā€™ve been doing that rep scheme for about 3 months. [/quote] Someone shoot those muscle-mag writers. [quote]
monday- biā€™s- bb curl, incline db curls, seated preachers triā€™s- close grip pressdown, close grip bench, skull crushers
tuesday- squats, leg press, deadlifts, leg curls, calf raises (sometimes hallway lunges at the end)
wednesday- off
thursday- chest- bb bench, bb incline, cable flyes shoulders- overhead bb, upright bb row, lateral raises
friday- back- lat pulldowns, close grip t-bar with a bb, wide grip seated rows
cardio- not much, but i play intermural sports at my college

diet- around 3000 calories/day, about 200g protein/day[/quote] Do you weigh more than 100 lbs? Then I suggest getting in more protein. 1.5-2 grams per lb of bodyweightā€¦ 1.5 will be enough at your size and strength levels to get you up 20-40 lbs easy, but beyond that, 2 grams may be well worth the try. [quote], 1 fruit 1 vegetable/day[/quote] Haha, but no more than one, right? :wink: [quote]. I mostly cook for myself so breakfasts are usually 3 scrambled eggs, buttered toast, oj, some kind of fruit, lunches- footlong deli sandwiches plain, only meat and cheese, dinners- meat and potatoes, chicken breast and rice, salmon and wild rice, stuff like that with a bowl of uncooked spinach and spoonfull of ranch. snacks are usually plain greek yogurt, string cheese, apples, soy protein shakes (cause its cheap)[/quote] Unfortunately, Iā€™m not free to speak about protein powders on here. Perhaps e-mail ScottM (his mail is in his profile)[quote].

Any input? iā€™ve seen a lot of your posts and respect your advice.[/quote]

Routine is so-so, could actually get your somewhere if only you didnā€™t use such terrible rep/set schemes.

A little higher overall frequency might get you big faster thoughā€¦ If youā€™re up for 6 days a week, head to the BBB thread and either grab a copy of the BBB ebook or use that slide-share link.
Otherwise, pick your choice from:
-Wendler 5/3/1 + custom assistance template
-Yates 3-way split, higher frequency, works well for practically everyone it seems.
-Phil hernon-based routine, somewhat similar to BBB
and yeah, there are some others as well.

317

ā€œIā€™m doing 5/3/1 on a 4-way split with each wave being 1 week.ā€

C.C. - would you mind detailing that schedule please? Iā€™m assuming that if each wave is 1week then you are squatting and deadlifting each week? Iā€™ve been trying to do similar and my lower back just wonā€™t take it! Thanks.

318

[quote]tokon wrote:
ā€œIā€™m doing 5/3/1 on a 4-way split with each wave being 1 week.ā€

C.C. - would you mind detailing that schedule please? Iā€™m assuming that if each wave is 1week then you are squatting and deadlifting each week? Iā€™ve been trying to do similar and my lower back just wonā€™t take it! Thanks.[/quote]

I usually donā€™t squat and do conv. deadlift in the same week. One thing that may make it possible for you though: squat high-bar and stay more upright.

Also, Iā€™m pulling sumo these days with the widest possible stance. I can pretty much do sumo pulls as a hamstring exercise (best ham exercise for me personally) and itā€™ll hit my traps, hams and glutes quite a bit, but doesnā€™t take much out of my low-backā€¦

If you want to train both conv. deadlifts and low-bar back squats in the same cycle of 5/3/1, youā€™re better off with the original frequency (4 workouts over 3 days a week EOD).

Another thing to help you: Just do front-squats instead of back squats. Those shouldnā€™t take much out of your low-back either and then you can do conv. deads in the same week.

As for my 5/3/1 schedule on a 4-way split, that was

Chest+Back
off
Legs
Delts+Traps/additional back work if necessary
Guns
off
off

Pretty much the only 4-way I still use every now and again.
It was usually 2 exercises per bodypart, 3 for legs (i.e. quads, hams, calves) and abs whenever I felt like doing them for one exercise.

Assistance work was either ramped to one top set, DC-rest-paused or done with 2 top sets at different rep rangesā€¦ Standard BB stuffā€¦

Edit: hereā€™s a similar template (not quite the same as mine, I have no hs machiens etc, but you get the idea)
Itā€™s also possible to set the routine up so that youā€™re doing the main lifts on standard 5/3/1 frequency but your assistance work traines half the body every session, roughly, so that you get higher overall frequency per bodypart. The routine below is not set up like that.

319

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

Your reps are supposed to go down as you add weight. This is not a fixed set/rep scheme.
Btw, did you go to failure on any of those cluster sets? I hope not, because youā€™re not supposed to :slight_smile: (thatā€™s the difference between cluster training and rest-pause, mostly).
[/quote]
Well none were to failure but many were at a point where I couldnā€™t have gotten another rep if I tried. It seems weird that reps would go down every time though, I mean when you think of a normal routine you often expect to get maybe 3x5xweight and then the next week get 3x5xweight+5

[quote]
As fatty said, you start with roughly 60 percent of your estimated/tested 1RM and add weight from there, he at first did 50 total reps per session 5 times or so per week. Then had to cut that down to 25 as 50 was probably a little too much.

I do think he stayed with his bodyweight at first though instead of adding weightā€¦ Until he could do sets of 10 or so? Not entirely certain, might wish to ask him.[/quote]

Hm well thats the problem with me on pull ups. 60% of my 1rm would be like 40lb. less than I weigh. Pronated grip I could get maybe 7 when I started, probably still 7 now. Used to be 12 when I did them 4x a week but clearly have gone down since. My BW is probably closer to 80% of my 1RM

[quote]
Anyway, I suggest you do pullups 4 times per week then maybe (careful though, donā€™t bust your bi tendons) and at first just try to get 25 total reps per session with your bodyweight in as many non-failure sets (rest as needed, longer the more weight youā€™re using later on in relation to your 1RM) as you need.
Maybe increase weight once a week, or perhaps twice if your reps are shooting up, but just do that first week with no more than your bodyweight.[/quote]
I think this may be a big problem with what I was doing. I was only doing them once a week. The problem though is that Iā€™m doing 5/3/1 right now so would that interfere with it? Iā€™ve heard SandBlaster over at IronAddicts.com say he incorporates upper back work in some way every time he trains but Iā€™m not sure if this is the same.

Also if I did do this what would you suggest I do at this point? Currently Iā€™ve been doing 1 time a week and as I said Iā€™m already at 4,3,3,3,2,2,2 with added weight which took like 15min. alone. If I started doing 4x a week (again IF thats ok with 5/3/1) where would I start with regards to weight/reps/sets since Iā€™m already at this point?

Wow just a little over a week? Thats pretty good, like you I went from 6 or so to 12 when doing them 4x a week but then was stuck at 12 for a long time and never could get 13 with decent form. I think adding weight and staying in the lower ranges would help my BW numbers though (thats what happened with dips, I stuck with BW and couldnā€™t get past like 8 then by the time I was adding 60+lb I could rep out 16).

As for FattyFat, I PMed him about a month ago and he never replied.

320

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

A little higher overall frequency might get you big faster thoughā€¦ If youā€™re up for 6 days a week, head to the BBB thread and either grab a copy of the BBB ebook or use that slide-share link.

[/quote]

Do you have any problems with the 4 days/week option?