Carbolin 19 Thread

Nutrition
1

I’m going to use Carbolin 19 (stand alone and what is in HOT-ROX Extreme, see below) as my only supplement for the next 12 weeks. I’m going to report what, if anything, occurs.

BACKGROUND
After attaining a nice physique, injuries kept me from the gym for approximately 4 years. I gained a lot of fat - reaching a high weight of 260 pounds. This was not a “bullking” cycle. It was a “eat like shit and not train” cycle. So I lost muscle and gained fat. Lovely.

Finally, after the pain from my injuries became so great that I couldn’t sleep, I saw an ART practicioner. After 5 sessions, I was back in the gym - using machines at 50% 1RM. After about a dozen sessions and prehab/rehap type exercises in the gym, I was able to train at about 80%. As of about 4 months ago, I have been able to train at full intensity.

Since I have been dieting to lose weight, no muscle memory has kicked in. So I haven’t gained back the muscle I lost while not traing. I have, however, lost 40 pounds of fat.

I took the first twenty off over a longer period of time. Then I took another 15-18 off during the Velocity Diet. I have about 15 pounds more fat to lose.

I could kick my fat-loss mode into high gear, either doing another V-Diet or simply cutting kcals deeply. But my primary goal is gaining technical proficiency in BJJ. Based on my goals and age, I can’t afford to sacrifice 6-8 weeks of BJJ to drop the fat. (Training BJJ at low cals is dangerous and can lead to injuries, as one moment of dullness could lead to something getting twisted the wrong way.)

Thus, I’m doing a “slow diet.” I am giving myself “all the time in the world” to lose this last 15 pounds.

In light of this, what better time to use Carbolin 19? Since I’m going to be patient with the fat loss, cutting kcals by only 3,500 a week, I may as well see what the Carbolin 19 does.

Here’s what I’m going to do:

SUPPLEMENTS

  • 2 HRX in the a.m. (HRX has Carbolin 19. How much? It’s a trade secret, so I don’t know. But it has enough that I was able to not lose any muscle mass while on the V-Diet).

  • 2 Carbolin 19 6 hours later.

  • Creatine - 5 grams during workout, and 5 grams PWO. I loaded a long time ago, so this shouldn’t mess up the results. I’ll just be keeping the well full.

  • Multi - I take the one-a-day from Super Nutrition.

  • ZMA - I take this 3 times each week.

TRAINING

  • Twice weekly strength training sessions - primarily bodyweight-only exercises.
  • Twice-thrice weekly BJJ sessions.
  • Twice weekly HIIT. I run stairs or hike and run hills.

EATING
2500-3000kcals a day. I eat approximately isocalorically (33-33-33). I eat six times a day, always having a scoop of Low-Carb Metabolic Drive and several fish oil caps right before bedtime.

I put in my order for Carbolin 19 and should have it in two days.

Let’s see what happens…

2

Based on your dosing you may not even end up with a complete dose of Carbolin 19 each day. I would imagine that HRX has less than a full dose in it, and you’re only getting half a dose of HRX. Then you are following with a half a dose of Carbolin 19. That adds up to potentially less than a complete dose.

I would suggest ditching the HRX and just going full on with the Carbolin 19. That way you’ll know how much you’re getting and the results will be more appreciable. I know you still want to lose fat, but like you said- you’ve got all the time in the world.

3

[quote]eengrms76 wrote:
Based on your dosing you may not even end up with a complete dose of Carbolin 19 each day. I would imagine that HRX has less than a full dose in it, and you’re only getting half a dose of HRX. Then you are following with a half a dose of Carbolin 19. That adds up to potentially less than a complete dose.

I would suggest ditching the HRX and just going full on with the Carbolin 19. That way you’ll know how much you’re getting and the results will be more appreciable. I know you still want to lose fat, but like you said- you’ve got all the time in the world.[/quote]

You’re right… maybe… maybe not. Too much speculation. It’s a trade secret how much Carbolin 19 is in HRX. No one knows. It could be more or less than 2 caps worth. We just don’t know.

What I do know this this: I maintained all of my LBM while on the V-Diet. I took 2 caps of HRX twice daily. So my assumption is there’s an appreciable dose of Carbolin 19 in the HRX - enough that even eating sub 1,000-1,500 kcals did not waste away the muscle. I’ve been on other ketogenic diets before and lost muscle, so I think the Carbolin 19 contained in the HRX played a signficant role.

Could ModBrian or someone who has some idea how much Carbolin 19 there is in HRX chime in here?

4

I just saw this post in the Carbolin 19 thread:

Cy Willson:
"If you’re looking to lose ‘weight’ I think it’s best to avoid Carbolin 19. If you’re looking to alter your body composition favorably, Carbolin 19 is a good choice. However, the focus of Carbolin 19 is as an anabolic compound. Yes, while one can lose fat mass in addition, I would not substitute it as a fat loss supplement.

“Overall, if you’re looking to gain muscle and perhaps lose a bit of fat, Carbolin 19 is what I’d choose.”

In light of this, I’ll likely not go hypocaloric and drop the HRX.

5

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:

  • Creatine - 5 grams during workout, and 5 grams PWO. I loaded a long time ago, so this shouldn’t mess up the results. I’ll just be keeping the well full. [/quote]

Are you sure you need this much creatine? I’m new, and definitely not an expert, so sorry if this is a dumb question. But in light of this article:

http://www.T-Nation.com/findArticle.do?article=06-086-diet

It would seem like you’re taking a good deal more than you need, particularly if you’re already loaded. Not a big deal, obviously, just wouldn’t want you to piss away money.

TW

6

[quote]eengrms76 wrote:
That adds up to potentially less than a complete dose.[/quote]

Actually, two caps is a “complete dose.” From the Carbolin 19 thread:

Cy Willson
“The effects are probably still dose-dependent even past the 40 mg/day dosage, but because it hasn’t been looked at directly, I couldn’t tell you for certain. As long as you’re taking at least 2 capsules (40 mg) daily, that’s good enough.”

Each cap has 20mg, so two caps is a full dose.

In any event, there are a lot of unanswered questions. If Carbolin 19 is not ideal for a fat-loss cycle, why was it added to HRX? It must do something?

The Carbolin 19 thread is a little dated. I’m sure they’ve learned a lot about the compound since then.

Elsewhere in thread, Cy Willson says Carbolin 19 is primilary an anabolic agent. I get that. But does it help one change one’s body composition in a hypocaloric state?

Like I said, my goal is fat loss… But I’m okay with losing the fat slooowly so that I have enough calories to ensure proper energy and mental clarity for BJJ.

IOW, I’m not on a pure “diet.” Sure, I eat hypocalorically, but not drastically so. At most, I am aiming to lose one pound of fat per week.

Would Carbolin 19 be beneficial with such a goal?

7

[quote]Sabre T wrote:
CaliforniaLaw wrote:

  • Creatine - 5 grams during workout, and 5 grams PWO. I loaded a long time ago, so this shouldn’t mess up the results. I’ll just be keeping the well full.

Are you sure you need this much creatine? I’m new, and definitely not an expert, so sorry if this is a dumb question. But in light of this article:

http://www.T-Nation.com/findArticle.do?article=06-086-diet

It would seem like you’re taking a good deal more than you need, particularly if you’re already loaded. Not a big deal, obviously, just wouldn’t want you to piss away money.
TW
[/quote]

Some disagree, but 10 gms is what works best for me.

Anyhow, at the dose I take, a bottle of creatine (Biotest, at $13 a bottle) lasts me 50 days. So even if the article were right, I’d be pissing away about a dime a day. If that’s my biggest financial leak, then I’m pretty happy. :wink:

8

Would you not like to have the same body weight and lower body fat percentage? IF you do not want this, then Carbolin 19 isn’t for you.

9

Fair enough, best of luck

TW

10

From Tim Patterson in the HOT-ROX Extreme thread (regarding the amount of Carbolin 19 in HRX):

"No one knows the amount of Carbolin 19 in HOT-ROX Extreme because I haven’t given out that information.

Bottom line, HRX contains the exact amount of Carbolin 19 required to make the formula perform optimally."

I.E., HRC contains at least somewhat less than a full dose of Carbolin 19. (If it were a full dose, or more, he’d be advertising that loud and clear, as he did with Alpha Male, which DOES contain a full dose of Carbolin 19).

11

[quote]kroby wrote:
Would you not like to have the same body weight and lower body fat percentage? IF you do not want this, then Carbolin 19 isn’t for you.[/quote]

What do you base this on? I am on page 21 on the Carbolin 19 product release thread. Lots of things in that thread are outdated. So your assertion might be incorrect.

E.g., Cy Willson said to NOT combine HOT-ROX with Carbolin 19. But the reformulated HOT-ROX contains Carbolin 19. So that’s outdated.

What else is outdated? Is the claim that Carbolin 19 should be used as an anabolic compound only also outdated? Can a person still gain muscle (to a lesser extent, of course) while losing fat with Carbolin 19 in the PM and HRX in the AM?

I don’t know. Hence why I’m posing quesions here.

If you are familiar with recent research on Carbolin 19, please share it.

12

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
Each cap has 20mg, so two caps is a full dose.[/quote]

I did not know that. Interesting.

Good question. I always assumed that Max Strength HOT-ROX was good at maintaining lean mass while dieting, so the addition of Carbolin-19 to HRX must have been for a different reason.

[quote]At most, I am aiming to lose one pound of fat per week.

Would Carbolin 19 be beneficial with such a goal?[/quote]

Only one way to find out.

The only time I’ve used standalone Carbolin 19 I was in a hypocaloric state for most of the time, and I noticed a decrease in fat mass overall, and only a slight increase in lean mass. So it does what it’s supposed to do at least.

13

[quote]Damici wrote:
From Tim Patterson in the HOT-ROX Extreme thread (regarding the amount of Carbolin 19 in HRX):

"No one knows the amount of Carbolin 19 in HOT-ROX Extreme because I haven’t given out that information.

Bottom line, HRX contains the exact amount of Carbolin 19 required to make the formula perform optimally."

I.E., HRC contains at least somewhat less than a full dose of Carbolin 19. (If it were a full dose, or more, he’d be advertising that loud and clear, as he did with Alpha Male, which DOES contain a full dose of Carbolin 19).
[/quote]

How do you define “full dose”? Alpha Male has 20mg of Carbolin 19. The recommended dosage of Carbolin 19 is 40mg.

When you think critically, there is a lot of confusion regarding Carbolin 19, what a full dose is, how to use it, etc.

E.g., someone told me taking 2 caps (40 mg) would be less than a “full dose.” Yet elsewhere 20 mg is called a full dose and still elsewhere Cy Willson says that 40mg is idea for most people. Thus, if I take 2 caps, I’m either taking a half dose, a full dose, or a double-dose.

All any of use are doing is guessing and defining terms based on ignorance. Which is why I put out a “cry for help.” I hope to hear the latest research soon.

14

[quote]eengrms76 wrote:
The only time I’ve used standalone Carbolin 19 I was in a hypocaloric state for most of the time, and I noticed a decrease in fat mass overall, and only a slight increase in lean mass. So it does what it’s supposed to do at least.[/quote]

Now this is useful. HOw many kcals did you eat? How much weight total did you lose? How much fat mass? How much LBM did you gain? Even if you can only give approximations, that would be helpful.

Of course I’m going to try it myself. But if others have done what I’m going to do, then their [your] experiences are valuable.

15

Fair question, but I would assume that a “full dose” means that if you take the maximum recommended dose of HRX (which is a total of 4 caps per day), it would – if true – have an equivalent amount of Carbolin 19 as if you took the maximum recommended dose of Carbolin 19 (which is 4 caps per day of that).

Maybe I’m wrong, but I assume that’s what’s meant when comparing the products. And judging by Tim Patterson’s comments that I quoted, it seems pretty clear that that’s NOT the case. (I.E., there’s less than a full “max dose” of Carbolin 19 if you take the maximum daily dose of HRX).

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
Damici wrote:
From Tim Patterson in the HOT-ROX Extreme thread (regarding the amount of Carbolin 19 in HRX):

"No one knows the amount of Carbolin 19 in HOT-ROX Extreme because I haven’t given out that information.

Bottom line, HRX contains the exact amount of Carbolin 19 required to make the formula perform optimally."

I.E., HRC contains at least somewhat less than a full dose of Carbolin 19. (If it were a full dose, or more, he’d be advertising that loud and clear, as he did with Alpha Male, which DOES contain a full dose of Carbolin 19).

How do you define “full dose”? Alpha Male has 20mg of Carbolin 19. The recommended dosage of Carbolin 19 is 40mg.

When you think critically, there is a lot of confusion regarding Carbolin 19, what a full dose is, how to use it, etc.

E.g., someone told me taking 2 caps (40 mg) would be less than a “full dose.” Yet elsewhere 20 mg is called a full dose and still elsewhere Cy Willson says that 40mg is idea for most people. Thus, if I take 2 caps, I’m either taking a half dose, a full dose, or a double-dose.

All any of use are doing is guessing and defining terms based on ignorance. Which is why I put out a “cry for help.” I hope to hear the latest research soon.[/quote]

16

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
Now this is useful. HOw many kcals did you eat? How much weight total did you lose? How much fat mass? How much LBM did you gain? Even if you can only give approximations, that would be helpful.[/quote]

Well I went through two complete bottles during my “test”. So however long that is, roughly 30 days (4 caps a day). I lost probably close to 5lbs of fat (close to 8lbs overall), coming directly off of a diet so it wasn’t water it was definitely. Doesn’t sound like much, but it was only one month.

I would have gone longer but I switched up and started bulking at the end of the summer and have been since. I only recently started taking HRX again to keep the fat gain at bay.

My BF% went down some too about 3-4% (indicating a slight lean mass gain of about two lbs) and all during that month my lifts increased. It was just an experiment. I can’t say I kept very good track of my diet, but I did eat pretty clean and stayed at around 2200-2500 cals or so. I still had Surge PWO (2500cal days).

Carbolin 19 isn’t touted as a diet supplement, but if used in this manner it sure can be helpful.

17

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
I just saw this post in the Carbolin 19 thread:

Cy Willson:
"If you’re looking to lose ‘weight’ I think it’s best to avoid Carbolin 19. If you’re looking to alter your body composition favorably, Carbolin 19 is a good choice. However, the focus of Carbolin 19 is as an anabolic compound. Yes, while one can lose fat mass in addition, I would not substitute it as a fat loss supplement.

“Overall, if you’re looking to gain muscle and perhaps lose a bit of fat, Carbolin 19 is what I’d choose.”

In light of this, I’ll likely not go hypocaloric and drop the HRX.[/quote]

I thought this quote was plain. Carbolin 19 is to be used as a body composition changer, not a fat loss exclusive supplement. That’s why I said if you want to keep the same weight, just change the body fat percentage, use Carbolin 19. Adding it to HRX is brilliant.

Finally, taking HRX can’t hurt your goal, can it? If you’re not weight training, just take HOT-ROX. If you’re interested in keeping as much LBM as possible, while dieting down, Carbolin 19 will help. At least, that’s what I read throughout that Carbolin 19 thread.

18

Some clarification:

  1. Carbolin 19 is in HOT-ROX Extreme because forskolin has been shown to reduce fat mass and either preserve or increase lean body mass.

  2. Carbolin 19 and HOT-ROX weren’t recommended to be used concurrently in the past because HOT-ROX contained Sclaremax which had similar actions as compared to Carbolin 19. In HOT-ROX Extreme, the Sclaremax was excluded while the Carbolin 19 was included.

The current Maximum Strength HOT-ROX contains Sclaremax and hence should not be used with Carbolin 19.

  1. The idea behind using Carbolin 19 while dieting would be to help preserve muscle tissue while accelerating fat loss.

  2. As far as dosing goes, many of the replies on the Carbolin 19 thread were in response to widely varying questions, some asking if one capsule per day would be better than nothing at all, others wondering what the best dosage would be in terms of cost/benefit, etc.

The maximum recommended dosage is 4 capsules per day. I personally would consume at least two capsules or 40 mg per day.

19

Cy,

Thanks for chiming in here.

Perhaps you can (if you’re able to) answer the question we’ve aaaaaaall been wondering: Does the maximum daily dosage of HRX (4 caps per day total) contain the equivalent amount of Carbolin 19 as if one took the maximum daily dosage of straight Carbolin 19 capsules (which is also 4 caps per day total)?

Thanks again.

20

[quote]Cy Willson wrote:
Some clarification:

  1. Carbolin 19 is in HOT-ROX Extreme because forskolin has been shown to reduce fat mass and either preserve or increase lean body mass.

  2. Carbolin 19 and HOT-ROX weren’t recommended to be used concurrently in the past because HOT-ROX contained Sclaremax which had similar actions as compared to Carbolin 19. In HOT-ROX Extreme, the Sclaremax was excluded while the Carbolin 19 was included.

The current Maximum Strength HOT-ROX contains Sclaremax and hence should not be used with Carbolin 19.

  1. The idea behind using Carbolin 19 while dieting would be to help preserve muscle tissue while accelerating fat loss.

  2. As far as dosing goes, many of the replies on the Carbolin 19 thread were in response to widely varying questions, some asking if one capsule per day would be better than nothing at all, others wondering what the best dosage would be in terms of cost/benefit, etc.

The maximum recommended dosage is 4 capsules per day. I personally would consume at least two capsules or 40 mg per day.[/quote]

Thanks very much for your reply.