Can FINALLY Train Normally (Somewhat) and Need Help!

Bigger Stronger Leaner
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Finally I can make this post!!!
Tl;dr: Need help with future programming for goals

Background: Have Elhers-Danlos. Tore both my hip labrums walking at age 19, and pretty much all my joints (especially left shoulder) fell apart around that time. Literally could not walk, stand or hold a coffee cup without pain/inflammation. Needed surgery on both hips and endless physical therapy just to be able to get back to baseline, let alone lift.

Starting stats:

  • DB Floor Press: 3lbs x 9 (failure)
  • Started with top 1/3 wall push ups
  • Nearly failed bending over in a RDL position and getting back
  • Started with top 1/3 BW Bulgarian Split squats
  • DB Rows: 3lbs x 10s
  • DB/Hammer Curl: 3lbs x 10s

Now: (donā€™t go to failure, so will estimate a ā€œtop setā€

  • DB Row : 220lbs x 5 - 10 (pause these too haha)
  • Lat Pulldown: 140 x 8 - 12 (just was able to start these)
  • DB/Hammer Curl: 40 x 12 - 20
  • RDL: 315 x 5 - 10
  • DB Bulgarian Split Squat: 240lbs per leg x 8 - 12
  • Seated DB Press: 70 x 5 - 10
  • Incline DB Press: 75 x 8 - 12
  • Until today, I had to do my pressing with my shoulder blades protracted and end it like a serratus ā€œpush up plus.ā€ I tried pressing with retracted shoulder blades today and felt a good deal stronger, but havenā€™t tested a top set.

Goal: Basically be like Brian Alsruhe/@Alpha . Want to be a lean 240lbs, strong/explosive as hell, have stamina on demand, can do crazy bodyweight stuff, do MMA as a hobby, etc. I do want to have bodybuilder proportions, though, since it looks good haha.

HOWEVER, if going for this goal ends up being too much for my joints, Iā€™m content keeping bodybuilding/physqiue as my target. MMA and being a madman like Alsruhe isnā€™t worth messing up my body.
ā€¦

The Question:

5/3/1 and Alsruheā€™s programs both stick out to me due to my goals and their long-term nature and simplicity. I can do barbell upper body pressing movements now, though I should stay lighter and far from failure on them due to my shoulders. This makes Alsruheā€™s programs tricky since they require going hard on barbell bench/ohp variations. On 5/3/1, at least, itā€™s not required to go hard on the main lift depending on the program choice. However, why even do 5/3/1 then since Iā€™m probably stuck with 5s PRO and FSL 5x5?

What would you guys recommend? Both 5/3/1 and Alsruheā€™s programs seem to go:

  • Main lift
  • Supplemental/ ā€œVolumeā€
  • Assistance

With conditioning, periodization, etc. Iā€™m open to nearly anything, though I do have to be careful with my joints. I canā€™t grind reps every session. Also, I do NOT care about any specific lifts. So having a 500 bench for the sake of it doesnā€™t appeal to me.

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@T3hPwnisher @Andrewgen_Receptors @TrainForPain @throwawayfitness @KonsuTheTraveller @flipcollar @BrickHead @tlgains

Sorry if I forgot anyone Iā€™ve interacted with! I know you guys have different goals, but I thought the more people give advice, the better.

Finally Iā€™m able to do a more normal program. Like I said, Iā€™m not married to any lift or training style (as long as itā€™s not very hard on the joints).

So far, Iā€™ve kept things simple and focused on progressing in weight slowly over time with lots of autoregulation. Iā€™ve basically done: Main lift(s), Volume, then Assistance.

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Any other superpowers you want to throw in there? I donā€™t recall how tall you are, but 240 lean is very large.

You canā€™t say things like ā€œi want to be strong and explosive as hellā€ and also say ā€œi donā€™t want to bench 500lbs for the sake of itā€ā€¦ you gotta reframe your mindset on these. You want to be strong and explosive as hell? Train like it.

Most of this is out of my department. I build muscle - itā€™s the only thing i care aboutā€¦ being huge and lean. I still think there is a strong argument (pun intended) for training specifically to put on size - but my advice to get you there doesnā€™t seem to interest you (which is fine).

5/3/1 is tried and true. I actually recommend it to most who are interested in powerlifting, but thatā€™s the end of my experience there.

I hang out in the thread and poke things, but i think the folks you tagged can cover it pretty well.

Also tagging @SvenG, because 531

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Lol first thing I thought of was this article

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But canā€™t forget this:

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Iā€™m excited for you dude. Glad to hear you have progressed so far. This is pretty amazing.

Barbell pressing is limited. What about barbell squatting and conventional deadlifting (as in, not RDL)?

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Super pumped, my good man, and good on you for putting in work and keeping it simple!

Before I opine, do you mind me asking what has changed specifically that allows you to train more ā€œnormallyā€? I donā€™t want to give any ideas that donā€™t make any sense.

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Thanks for the tag, dude!

@startingagain - Iā€™ve been running 5/3/1 for quite awhile nowā€”I just finished my 22nd near-continuous cycle, and that has included a lot of 5s PRO, 5x5 FSLā€”but thatā€™s mostly just because JWā€™s programming has worked well for me.

Maybe you could try a mix of 5s PRO, 5x5 FSL for pressing and other 5/3/1 variations for squat/deadlift/bench?

Separately, do you own 5/3/1 Forever? If not, itā€™s probably worth picking upā€”tremendous variety, and it might inspire a 5/3/1 mix thatā€™d work for you.

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Before I opine, do you mind me asking what has changed specifically that allows you to train more ā€œnormallyā€? I donā€™t want to give any ideas that donā€™t make any sense

I improved my shoulder stability to the point where I can do any upper body pressing movement with a full ROM. Neutral grip DB pressing exercises feel the safest, but I can now do barbell presses without pain. However, Iā€™m not convinced heavy barbell pressing moves are the best idea with my shoulder history haha.

I can now also do bilateral leg moves, whereas before my hips were so uneven that I was stuck with unilateral work. So legpresses, RDLs, and cleans are fine. My hip surgeon does not want me to do full squats, though, since the bottom ROM puts a big stretch on my hips, and I am massively hypermobile to begin with. However, I did some light squats yesterday and felt zero pain, inflammation, or a bad stretch. Iā€™m going to try to call him within a week to see if heā€™s fine with work arounds, such as maybe Oly shoes to shift weight more to the quads rather than the hips.

He gave the option of low box squats, but those felt super awkward and unsafe since I was using a bunch of bumper plates for a box. Hopefully that answers your question.

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@T3hPwnisher

Barbell pressing is limited. What about barbell squatting and conventional deadlifting (as in, not RDL)?

Like I told @TrainForPain above, my surgeon doesnā€™t want me to doing squats unless theyā€™re purposely partial ranged or to a box. Despite this, full squats last night felt fine, and my main physical therapist sees no issues with them. Iā€™m gonna call him soon about this because free squats felt awesome, and I felt them in my muscles rather than my joints, which is a win.

I literally deadlifted seriously for the first time in my life last night haha. I only went up to 335 conventional, but it felt fine. I just have to get used to the new ROM for them. Cleans are fine too, and I love Oly lifts!

About barbell pressingā€¦ I mean, is it needed? If I work up to 160lbs Incline DB presses, is there any difference compared to a 315 barbell Incline? Iā€™m still hesistant about the unneeded risk.

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For the program I had in mind, yeah.

I was going to vector toward Deep Water. You donā€™t ever get heavy there (70% of your 10rm), but it will still kill you dead and transform you. I donā€™t see an issue making the benching day all DBs, but the pressing day would need to be barbell.

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Thanks! Iā€™ve read Wendlerā€™s article about MMA too. I wish I could restart it already though haha.
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@Andrewgen_Receptors

Any other superpowers you want to throw in there? I donā€™t recall how tall you are, but 240 lean is very large.

Of course, give me Tysonā€™s punching power too :rofl: And Iā€™m 6ā€™2, but my hip issues mess up my posture, sometimes a lot, so I might be 6ā€™3.

You canā€™t say things like ā€œi want to be strong and explosive as hellā€ and also say ā€œi donā€™t want to bench 500lbs for the sake of itā€ā€¦ you gotta reframe your mindset on these. You want to be strong and explosive as hell? Train like it.

What I meant by that was that I donā€™t have any pet lifts, so if I only do inclines and never flat barbell bench, I donā€™t mind. Compared to powerlifters and strongman who obviously have to do specific lifts. Sorry if that was unclear.

I still think there is a strong argument (pun intended) for training specifically to put on size - but my advice to get you there doesnā€™t seem to interest you (which is fine).

No, no, I am still interested in size obviously. Iā€™d just rather not train to failure and try to beat the logbook every session since itā€™s risker for me than most. I do have a question, though, regarding progression:

Letā€™s say me eventually progressing to incline db pressing the 150s for easy 10s gets me a big upper chest. Does it matter what path I take to get there? I ask because my path has been downright bizzare so far out of necessity. Iā€™m more married to the end goal than any path.

Or do you disagree with the assumption that strength for reps (with good MMC) leads to size?

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@SvenG

Maybe you could try a mix of 5s PRO, 5x5 FSL for pressing and other 5/3/1 variations for squat/deadlift/bench?

First off, hey! Also, in case this causes confusion, when I say press I mean any pressing movement. Sorry if that caused a confusion. Both barbell overhead and bench presses are finally doable for me, but still probably not the safest choice, which is what makes me hesitant. I might be stuck with 5s PRO FSL 5x5 on OHP and Bench/Incline. And as I said in my post above, my hip surgeon hasnā€™t signed off on me doing any full ROM squat variation.

Separately, do you own 5/3/1 Forever ? If not, itā€™s probably worth picking upā€”tremendous variety, and it might inspire a 5/3/1 mix thatā€™d work for you.

Not yet. My uncertainty around 5/3/1 is if I can only do 5s PRO and easy supplemental for OHP/Bench, where does the periodization come in? Though perhaps this is an ignorant question.

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Is that weight the weight of one dumbell ? If you are doing 5 paused reps with a 100kg dumbell I have no advice that can help you get stronger.

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Doesnā€™t that program also involve 10x10 barbell squats?

Is there a reason why barbell pressing/barbell benching is required versus dumbbells on programs like these? It canā€™t just be ā€œbecause the program says so,ā€ right?

@simo74

Yep, thatā€™s 220 for each hand. And you most likely beat me in plenty of other lifts/body parts, so all advice is welcome :slight_smile:

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Not really, so long as form is good and youā€™re getting quality reps.

Most data, scientific and anecdotal, shows that beginners can add size with 5 or less reps, or more than 5. But the further you get in muscular development, the more you will have to stray away from powerlifting rep ranges to add size.

I do not believe i would see any significant size increases if i were to move to a powerlifting routine in my current state. But powerlifting was beneficial for me for a LONG time leading up to now.

FWIW, id rather not beat the logbook every time and train to failure either, but youā€™ve got a better reason than i do too.
I donā€™t recommend failure based training to anyone that doesnā€™t have extreme goals, or to those who cannot trust their form blindly to keep them safe/honest. I firmly believe it takes years of serious training to get to this point.

That being said i want to point out that at 6ā€™2, 240lbs and reasonably maintainable level is leanness (say 12%BF) is an FFMI of about 27. This is a VERY large person and most who have made it to this level of muscular development have used steroids and 10 years of hard training to get there. There are some who can do this naturally (my FFMI got to about this number naturally - for example) but still with YEARS of training.

If this is a ā€˜must haveā€™, you will need to train specifically for size, and be pretty far on the right side of the bell curve RE bodybuilding genetics. These stats would have you about as muscularly developed as i am in my profile picture - but at your height.

Anyways, Iā€™m rambling. I hope this helps put some scope on your goals.

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Hey man, Iā€™ll come back when I have some time, but thought Iā€™d drop a template here. Itā€™s pretty friendly to a lot of situations because you just plug and play the exercise variations with which youā€™re comfortable:

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Iā€™ve seen his 170ā€™s. I wondered the same thing at first. :laughing:

StartingAgain-is-Starting-Again-Training-Logs-Community-T-Nation
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Hey @startingagain, can you post a physique picture? Iā€™m struggling to understand the ā€˜clientā€™ in this situation.

ā€¦ here is Dorian Yates with a 200lb DB

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But the further you get in muscular development, the more you will have to stray away from powerlifting rep ranges to add size.

I really have to keep this in mind going forward since 80% of my sets were 1-5 reps. Iā€™m overdue for a normal hypertrophy rep range.

or to those who cannot trust their form blindly to keep them safe/honest. I firmly believe it takes years of serious training to get to this point.

I definitely canā€™t trust my form blindly yet, and Iā€™d say I have 1 - 1.5 years of semi-serious training. So yeah, Iā€™m a long ways from this.

Anyways, Iā€™m rambling. I hope this helps put some scope on your goals.

I know itā€™s a big goal, but itā€™d be kinda boring if my goal was attainable haha. Iā€™m pretty easy going about this. If I donā€™t hit it, itā€™s not the end of the world. Iā€™m just happy Iā€™m finally able to train at all after a decade of joint issues.

Hey @startingagain, can you post a physique picture? Iā€™m struggling to understand the ā€˜clientā€™ in this situation. here is Dorian Yates with a 200lb DB

Can I not? As Iā€™m still really self-conscious haha. Iā€™m 225 - 230lbs, chubby (flat stomach but no ab outline at all), and wear XL and XXL shirts, mostly due to my upper back. Since I mostly used low reps and tended to stay far from failure, my strength essentially detached from how much muscle I was getting, even with paused reps.

You got a lot more muscle than me. Which is why I really need to do more higher reps haha.
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@TrainForPain

I actually just read that article two nights ago. Thanks!

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Yeah.

Well, again, I said the benching COULD be done with dumbbells. But not the pressing. One aspect of that is because the press builds the push press in the program and vise versa. The other is, due to the amount of ridiculous fatigue youā€™ll accumulate doing 10x10, the BB goes a long way in ensuring you remain stable during those final reps, whereas DBs like to drift. The barbell also conforms more to the ā€œfull bodyā€ aspect of Deep Water movements, as they allow you to place your body under greater stress due to the increased load.

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The more extreme the goal is, the more extreme the steps you have to take will be.

I know youā€™re cool with not really hitting these goals, and I agree with setting goals unrealistically high, but if you were to seriously try hitting them - you will need to take some extreme measures to get there.

Iā€™ll hang around and let others chat.