Boxing Discussion Thread

Training
41

[quote]donnydarkoirl wrote:

[quote]Kirks wrote:
Just on Liston, I remember Ali acted crazy before their fights to unsettle him cos he was so tough. Ali said tough guys aren’t scared of other tough guys, they only fear crazy guys cos they don’t understand them. So Ali acted crazy to get inside his head. Just an interesting little piece of info I remember reading.

Seems to me Tyson was both.
[/quote]
I remeber as a kid my Dad told me that.
The press misinterpreted and thought Ali (still named Clay at the time) was simply terrified.[/quote]
Funny you should bring this particular example up re: Ali vs. Liston because it reminds me of the pre-fight stuff Tyson said before fighting Lennox Lewis (eg. eating his children). However, it obviously wasn’t very effective for Tyson. Unfortunately, by that time, he had become a freakshow who was a depressing shadow of his former self.

Another reason why I think Tyson was so fearsome before his early fights was his no-nonsense ring entry. While other fighters would put on a “show” prancing around and banging their gloves and wear flashy robes etc. Tyson would quickly walk to the ring usually covered in only a white towel with his trademark plain black shorts. In the ring in the moments before the fight he would barely move, just standing still staring emotionlessly into the eyes of his opponent.

For some reason, this scared the crap out of me at home watching on T.V. much more than any of the flashy pre-fight stuff of people like Prince Naz (extreme example). I think it’s because it showed such supreme self-confidence in his abilities that he felt the outcome of the match was a foregone conclusion and he was merely showing up as a formality.

It was like he was a machine with no pity; he was there simply to utterly destroy his opponent and then fade back into the background until he was called on again. I’m getting goose-bumps writing this just thinking about it.

Again, interesting to note that many of the boxers on your list were infighters. Maybe this style (ie. always coming forward, aggressive, punishing) leads to their aura of fear.

42

[quote]CMdad wrote:
Funny you should bring this particular example up re: Ali vs. Liston because it reminds me of the pre-fight stuff Tyson said before fighting Lennox Lewis (eg. eating his children). However, it obviously wasn’t very effective for Tyson. Unfortunately, by that time, he had become a freakshow who was a depressing shadow of his former self.

Another reason why I think Tyson was so fearsome before his early fights was his no-nonsense ring entry. While other fighters would put on a “show” prancing around and banging their gloves and wear flashy robes etc. Tyson would quickly walk to the ring usually covered in only a white towel with his trademark plain black shorts. In the ring in the moments before the fight he would barely move, just standing still staring emotionlessly into the eyes of his opponent.

For some reason, this scared the crap out of me at home watching on T.V. much more than any of the flashy pre-fight stuff of people like Prince Naz (extreme example). I think it’s because it showed such supreme self-confidence in his abilities that he felt the outcome of the match was a foregone conclusion and he was merely showing up as a formality.

It was like he was a machine with no pity; he was there simply to utterly destroy his opponent and then fade back into the background until he was called on again. I’m getting goose-bumps writing this just thinking about it.

Again, interesting to note that many of the boxers on your list were infighters. Maybe this style (ie. always coming forward, aggressive, punishing) leads to their aura of fear.[/quote]
I really enjoyed this post and agreed with a lot of it.
I think in retrospect it was obvious that tyson idolised Dempsey.
There was no glitz or g;amour in his early career. Just the solitary objective of destruction.

I feel that fighters who warranted this sort of reputation did have a desire to dismantle an opponent psychologically and physically.
Two more “phenom” types that spring to mind are of course Pacquiao and the great Finito Lopez.
These guys although more friendly personalities, must have had opponents fearful for the futures when in their prime*

*And yes I did say this because I feel Pacquiao is removed from his prime.
cringews in fear of retribution

43

[quote]donnydarkoirl wrote:

[quote]CMdad wrote:
Funny you should bring this particular example up re: Ali vs. Liston because it reminds me of the pre-fight stuff Tyson said before fighting Lennox Lewis (eg. eating his children). However, it obviously wasn’t very effective for Tyson. Unfortunately, by that time, he had become a freakshow who was a depressing shadow of his former self.

Another reason why I think Tyson was so fearsome before his early fights was his no-nonsense ring entry. While other fighters would put on a “show” prancing around and banging their gloves and wear flashy robes etc. Tyson would quickly walk to the ring usually covered in only a white towel with his trademark plain black shorts. In the ring in the moments before the fight he would barely move, just standing still staring emotionlessly into the eyes of his opponent.

For some reason, this scared the crap out of me at home watching on T.V. much more than any of the flashy pre-fight stuff of people like Prince Naz (extreme example). I think it’s because it showed such supreme self-confidence in his abilities that he felt the outcome of the match was a foregone conclusion and he was merely showing up as a formality.

It was like he was a machine with no pity; he was there simply to utterly destroy his opponent and then fade back into the background until he was called on again. I’m getting goose-bumps writing this just thinking about it.

Again, interesting to note that many of the boxers on your list were infighters. Maybe this style (ie. always coming forward, aggressive, punishing) leads to their aura of fear.[/quote]
I really enjoyed this post and agreed with a lot of it.
I think in retrospect it was obvious that tyson idolised Dempsey.
There was no glitz or g;amour in his early career. Just the solitary objective of destruction.

I feel that fighters who warranted this sort of reputation did have a desire to dismantle an opponent psychologically and physically.
Two more “phenom” types that spring to mind are of course Pacquiao and the great Finito Lopez.
These guys although more friendly personalities, must have had opponents fearful for the futures when in their prime*

*And yes I did say this because I feel Pacquiao is removed from his prime.
cringews in fear of retribution

[/quote]
Really interesting idea about Tyson idolising Dempsey. I’ve never considered that but it makes a lot of sense when you do. Of all the “old-time” boxers, Dempsey is my favorite. He definitely had that menace about him. I think some of it may be due to his Cherokee background. I live in an area where there is an Indian Reservation nearby and the boxers that are from the reserve all have that type of menace to them. I’m sure that some of it is that generally speaking it’s a hard life growing up on a reservation but, I think some of it is also a “warrior spirit” for lack of a better term. When I wrestled in high school as well, it was the same thing. Those guys just don’t know when to quit. You have to cut them in a million pieces to get them to stop coming at you.
As an aside, Dempsey’s classic book on punching technique is a great read. I really love his writing style (real salt of the earth type of prose).

44

[quote]CMdad wrote:
Really interesting idea about Tyson idolising Dempsey. I’ve never considered that but it makes a lot of sense when you do. Of all the “old-time” boxers, Dempsey is my favorite. He definitely had that menace about him. I think some of it may be due to his Cherokee background. I live in an area where there is an Indian Reservation nearby and the boxers that are from the reserve all have that type of menace to them. I’m sure that some of it is that generally speaking it’s a hard life growing up on a reservation but, I think some of it is also a “warrior spirit” for lack of a better term. When I wrestled in high school as well, it was the same thing. Those guys just don’t know when to quit. You have to cut them in a million pieces to get them to stop coming at you.
As an aside, Dempsey’s classic book on punching technique is a great read. I really love his writing style (real salt of the earth type of prose).[/quote]
Yeah man- agreed. Dempsey is actually a guy I find infatuating.
But I reckon its the Irish in him that made him great haha

Man, I would have loved to have wrestled. If there is one sport I would have loved to have done that would be it!!

45

[quote]donnydarkoirl wrote:

[quote]CMdad wrote:
Tyson has been the only boxer in my lifetime that you could see visibly scared the crap out of every opponent he faced. When he was in his prime (and even on his downward slope) the atmosphere around every one of his fights was electric.[quote]
Its funny I’ve been contemplating this train of thought a few days now.
There are a few world champions that during their reign, had a genuinely sinister aura.

Carlos Monzon
Edwin Valero
Roberto Duran
Mike Tyson
Julio Cesar Chavez
Jack Dempsey
Sonny Liston

I’d be interested to see who others add to the list.[/quote]

not me, that is a pretty good list IMHO

46

[quote]donnydarkoirl wrote:

[quote]CMdad wrote:
Funny you should bring this particular example up re: Ali vs. Liston because it reminds me of the pre-fight stuff Tyson said before fighting Lennox Lewis (eg. eating his children). However, it obviously wasn’t very effective for Tyson. Unfortunately, by that time, he had become a freakshow who was a depressing shadow of his former self.

Another reason why I think Tyson was so fearsome before his early fights was his no-nonsense ring entry. While other fighters would put on a “show” prancing around and banging their gloves and wear flashy robes etc. Tyson would quickly walk to the ring usually covered in only a white towel with his trademark plain black shorts. In the ring in the moments before the fight he would barely move, just standing still staring emotionlessly into the eyes of his opponent.

For some reason, this scared the crap out of me at home watching on T.V. much more than any of the flashy pre-fight stuff of people like Prince Naz (extreme example). I think it’s because it showed such supreme self-confidence in his abilities that he felt the outcome of the match was a foregone conclusion and he was merely showing up as a formality.

It was like he was a machine with no pity; he was there simply to utterly destroy his opponent and then fade back into the background until he was called on again. I’m getting goose-bumps writing this just thinking about it.

Again, interesting to note that many of the boxers on your list were infighters. Maybe this style (ie. always coming forward, aggressive, punishing) leads to their aura of fear.[/quote]
I really enjoyed this post and agreed with a lot of it.
I think in retrospect it was obvious that tyson idolised Dempsey.
There was no glitz or g;amour in his early career. Just the solitary objective of destruction.

I feel that fighters who warranted this sort of reputation did have a desire to dismantle an opponent psychologically and physically.
Two more “phenom” types that spring to mind are of course Pacquiao and the great Finito Lopez.
These guys although more friendly personalities, must have had opponents fearful for the futures when in their prime*

*And yes I did say this because I feel Pacquiao is removed from his prime.
cringews in fear of retribution

[/quote]

You know, I pretty much agree with everything you guys have just said. For me the only oneof your list besides Tyson that really unnerves me is Dempsey. I’m not arguing that the others on your list (a damned good one btw) didn’t have that menace, but Dempsey is the only other one I watch and just go, “holy shit I don’t ever want to meet him in a ring”. Different level IMO, and I love it.

On a slightly related note about moving forward and never quitting, one of my very favorite boxers of all time is Ray Mancini. That guy was like Rocky the first time I ever saw him fight on video tape. He just moves forward and throws, moves forward, throws. Great defensive fighter? no, but hell if you could stop him from coming at you. I don’t know if he actually knew how to retreat. The most I really ever saw him do was circle back just a bit to look for a better opening to stalk into you on.l

47

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]donnydarkoirl wrote:

[quote]CMdad wrote:
Funny you should bring this particular example up re: Ali vs. Liston because it reminds me of the pre-fight stuff Tyson said before fighting Lennox Lewis (eg. eating his children). However, it obviously wasn’t very effective for Tyson. Unfortunately, by that time, he had become a freakshow who was a depressing shadow of his former self.

Another reason why I think Tyson was so fearsome before his early fights was his no-nonsense ring entry. While other fighters would put on a “show” prancing around and banging their gloves and wear flashy robes etc. Tyson would quickly walk to the ring usually covered in only a white towel with his trademark plain black shorts. In the ring in the moments before the fight he would barely move, just standing still staring emotionlessly into the eyes of his opponent.

For some reason, this scared the crap out of me at home watching on T.V. much more than any of the flashy pre-fight stuff of people like Prince Naz (extreme example). I think it’s because it showed such supreme self-confidence in his abilities that he felt the outcome of the match was a foregone conclusion and he was merely showing up as a formality.

It was like he was a machine with no pity; he was there simply to utterly destroy his opponent and then fade back into the background until he was called on again. I’m getting goose-bumps writing this just thinking about it.

Again, interesting to note that many of the boxers on your list were infighters. Maybe this style (ie. always coming forward, aggressive, punishing) leads to their aura of fear.[/quote]
I really enjoyed this post and agreed with a lot of it.
I think in retrospect it was obvious that tyson idolised Dempsey.
There was no glitz or g;amour in his early career. Just the solitary objective of destruction.

I feel that fighters who warranted this sort of reputation did have a desire to dismantle an opponent psychologically and physically.
Two more “phenom” types that spring to mind are of course Pacquiao and the great Finito Lopez.
These guys although more friendly personalities, must have had opponents fearful for the futures when in their prime*

*And yes I did say this because I feel Pacquiao is removed from his prime.
cringews in fear of retribution

[/quote]

You know, I pretty much agree with everything you guys have just said. For me the only oneof your list besides Tyson that really unnerves me is Dempsey. I’m not arguing that the others on your list (a damned good one btw) didn’t have that menace, but Dempsey is the only other one I watch and just go, “holy shit I don’t ever want to meet him in a ring”. Different level IMO, and I love it.

On a slightly related note about moving forward and never quitting, one of my very favorite boxers of all time is Ray Mancini. That guy was like Rocky the first time I ever saw him fight on video tape. He just moves forward and throws, moves forward, throws. Great defensive fighter? no, but hell if you could stop him from coming at you. I don’t know if he actually knew how to retreat. The most I really ever saw him do was circle back just a bit to look for a better opening to stalk into you on.l[/quote]
I just finished reading a biography of Ray Mancini called “The Good Son”. It’s an excellent read and a great story. I didn’t know much about him before reading it and I’ve only seen a few short clips of his fights but everything you say regarding his relentless stalking of his opponents is exactly how the book characterizes his fighting. Apparently him and his dad prided themselves on never taking a step back in the ring and being willing to take 5 punches to get one in on their opponent. Also, it’s crazy how he even looks like Rocky.

48

[quote]donnydarkoirl wrote:

[quote]CMdad wrote:
Really interesting idea about Tyson idolising Dempsey. I’ve never considered that but it makes a lot of sense when you do. Of all the “old-time” boxers, Dempsey is my favorite. He definitely had that menace about him. I think some of it may be due to his Cherokee background. I live in an area where there is an Indian Reservation nearby and the boxers that are from the reserve all have that type of menace to them. I’m sure that some of it is that generally speaking it’s a hard life growing up on a reservation but, I think some of it is also a “warrior spirit” for lack of a better term. When I wrestled in high school as well, it was the same thing. Those guys just don’t know when to quit. You have to cut them in a million pieces to get them to stop coming at you.
As an aside, Dempsey’s classic book on punching technique is a great read. I really love his writing style (real salt of the earth type of prose).[/quote]
Yeah man- agreed. Dempsey is actually a guy I find infatuating.
But I reckon its the Irish in him that made him great haha

Man, I would have loved to have wrestled. If there is one sport I would have loved to have done that would be it!![/quote]
Good point on the Irish bloodlines too. When the Irish first immigrated here to North America, they too were often marginalised to the fringes of society and had to fight for everything they got. This quickly resulted in them developing a fearsome reputation both in and out of the ring ( also where the Notre Dame sports teams got their moniker from). In my city, most of the Irish settled in an area which subsequently became known as Corktown. My maternal grandmother (who immigrated here from Italy in the 1920’s) used to tell me that if you weren’t Irish, you knew not to go to Corktown because you wouldn’t come back out in one piece. To this day, it still has that reputation.
I’ve personally never been challenged by a sport as much as I was by wrestling. Like boxing, there’s no where to hide out on the mat and it quickly becomes apparent who has put the time in training and who hasn’t. Highest of highs and lowest of lows. The training is very similar and spartan. I almost cried when it was removed from the upcoming Olympics. I just hope they reinstate it ( looks like there’s a pretty good chance it will be).

49

[quote]CMdad wrote:
Good point on the Irish bloodlines too. When the Irish first immigrated here to North America, they too were often marginalised to the fringes of society and had to fight for everything they got. This quickly resulted in them developing a fearsome reputation both in and out of the ring ( also where the Notre Dame sports teams got their moniker from). In my city, most of the Irish settled in an area which subsequently became known as Corktown. My maternal grandmother (who immigrated here from Italy in the 1920’s) used to tell me that if you weren’t Irish, you knew not to go to Corktown because you wouldn’t come back out in one piece. To this day, it still has that reputation.
I’ve personally never been challenged by a sport as much as I was by wrestling. Like boxing, there’s no where to hide out on the mat and it quickly becomes apparent who has put the time in training and who hasn’t. Highest of highs and lowest of lows. The training is very similar and spartan. I almost cried when it was removed from the upcoming Olympics. I just hope they reinstate it ( looks like there’s a pretty good chance it will be).[/quote]
Thats really interesting.
We have an interesting culture here and I find it significant that even in modern times people from our small rock tend to colonize when moving abroad.
There has been an outcry for integration here in regard to foreign nationals joing our country, but I’m afarid that we ourselves are the worst offenders!

Man wrestling is an awesome spectacle and I found it disheartening myself when I heard it would be cancelled. I have to believe that it will be reinstated!!!

50

Ok, I know it’s still a few days away but what are everyone’s thoughts on the Mayweather vs. Canelo Alvarez fight this Saturday? I’d love to see Alvarez win and I think of all of “Money’s” opponents, Canelo has the best chance of beating him. He’s the bigger, stronger fighter and most importantly, I think he’s hungrier for this than Floyd is. However, Mayweather is just so damn crafty that I’d still probably give him the edge. I’d say Alvarez’s best chance lies in looking for the knockout punch in the middle rounds as he seems to have heavier hands than Mayweather. However, if this one goes the distance, I can’t see Alvarez winning a decision. Even if it’s close, I think the judges will lean towards Mayweather because of who he is and what he’s done. Just hope it’s a great fight!

51

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
GGG from the espn article “Any top fighter, any belt holder, any champion, I will fight them,” Golovkin said without hesitation. “Any time, anywhere. I am here.” “I want to fight again as soon as possible.”

Now that’s what I love to hear from a fighter! I desperately want more of that in boxing (warning: shut your ears Irish) because for me mma has the higher frequency that i like to see. They’ve very much gone the boxing route with a lot of the stars fighting infrequently, but things like Bellator where the same fighter fights every month or two are big for me personally

Ok Irish, you can look again :stuck_out_tongue:

GGG…Vicious left. That hurt me watching it. Macklin’s promoter “possibly the hardest body shot I’ve ever seen”

Damn. I have not watched much of anything from him but I am going to now.[/quote]

Triple G is the most dangerous man in the sport right now.

52

[quote]donnydarkoirl wrote:

[quote]idaho wrote:
I enjoy watching classic fights, so, if you gentlemen get around to discussing vintage fighters and their skill and technique, I would like to throw out the first two names for future discussion:

Marvin Hagler

Carlos Monzon[/quote]
Hagler was a specimen. The Petronelli’s were blessed when he walked into their gym. A guy with that work ethic, natural strength and durability. That is rare.

Monzon was a great fighter.
Both in my Top5 160’s of all time
[/quote]

Hagler is my all-time favorite. He was my Dad’s guy and introduced me to him. He was just a fighter’s fighter. A pure machine.

One of the best chins ever. Rumor has it he has NEVER been down. Not in sparring, as an ametuer, and a pro. Never even really hurt either.

Incredible.

53

[quote]Brett620 wrote:
Hagler is my all-time favorite. He was my Dad’s guy and introduced me to him. He was just a fighter’s fighter. A pure machine.

One of the best chins ever. Rumor has it he has NEVER been down. Not in sparring, as an ametuer, and a pro. Never even really hurt either.

Incredible. [/quote]
Agreed man, terrific fighter.
there was one knockdown though (however questionable.)

54

[quote]donnydarkoirl wrote:

[quote]Brett620 wrote:
Hagler is my all-time favorite. He was my Dad’s guy and introduced me to him. He was just a fighter’s fighter. A pure machine.

One of the best chins ever. Rumor has it he has NEVER been down. Not in sparring, as an ametuer, and a pro. Never even really hurt either.

Incredible. [/quote]
Agreed man, terrific fighter.
there was one knockdown though (however questionable.)

Yeah, there is always that. I thought it was a slip while he was trying to pivot with his rear foot. If I remember right, all the ringside observers said the same. But still, that was a great fight.

55

Is he? You probably think Wilder would be the most dangerous HW in the World right now, huh? Golovkin is really good, and can become a P4P in the future, if he overtakes the middleweight-division. But as for now, he hasn’t done anything special.

Macklin already got knocked out by Martinez ( 50% KO Ratio ) - He went seven rounds with Rosado, who got knocked out by Angulo in two rounds. Proksa lost against a featherfisted journeyman, and all others were -sorry- garbage. Golovkin went the distance with Ian Garder, who got knocked out by Chad Dawson ( light-heavy ) - Abraham, former Middleweight-Champion with 85% Knockout-Ratio went the distance with Gardner too, and just faded in the SMW.

If Golovkins power is THAT great, he should move up to the SMW just like Abe did. Against Andre Ward he can only win via knockout, and if he can’t knock Gardner or Amari, how should he catch Ward? Golovkins last loss was in 2004, where he got a silver-medal in the olympic games. Ward got Gold same year, and his last loss was as a kid in 1996. Golovkin vs Ward 2014, lets get it on!

( i assume Golovkin will win via murder against Stevens, and Ward against Rodriguez via UD )

56

Ward gonna tear that ass up

57

Whats up with the p4p rankings?

Wtf has Adrien Broner done to merit 7th in world?! A SD win over Paulie Malignaggi?

Wladamir Klitschko 4th? Guy probably doesn’t get enough credit amongst fans tbf, but the 4th best p4p fighter in the world? He’s got 1 shot.

Timothy Bradley 8th?! Maybe he’ll be moved down after Marquez KO’s him. I’ll give him his due, hes diced! His abs are insane. Has anyone noticed how jacked Marquez looks recently?! (Relative of course) but he seemed to dwarf Pac in fight 4.

Guillermo Rigondeaux - 12 fights and hes in?

You have Andre Ward at number 2, (fair enough, the guy oozes boxing talent). Yet Carl Froch not anywhere near top 10? Froch sent Ward to number 1 at super middleweight himself, when he brutally dealt with Bute.

58

Apparently GGG put Sergey Kovalev down in sparring. Kovalev is known for his brutal power, but he doesn’t seem to have the best chin. Down a few times as an amateur as well. I don’t see GGG giving Ward problems, but then again, that says more about Ward tbf!

I aren’t buying into Wilder (or at least not yet). Hes been sparring with David Haye and getting his ass handed to him. Id love to see him fight Arreola. I just wish the guy would sort his conditioning out. Skill wise he looked superb against Mitchell. The combinations were sweet. Fast and decisive. Wilder on the other hand is fighting guys who have won 2 fights in 7 years. He has hype written all over him.

Side note. is Chavez junior more detestable than Amir Khan? I think its a fair shout. guys lazy, ungrateful, arrogant, always comes in overweight. id never really noticed Khans referring to himself in the 3rd person lol. I can overlook it.

59

[quote]CarltonJ wrote:
Whats up with the p4p rankings?

Wtf has Adrien Broner done to merit 7th in world?! A SD win over Paulie Malignaggi?

Wladamir Klitschko 4th? Guy probably doesn’t get enough credit amongst fans tbf, but the 4th best p4p fighter in the world? He’s got 1 shot.

Timothy Bradley 8th?! Maybe he’ll be moved down after Marquez KO’s him. I’ll give him his due, hes diced! His abs are insane. Has anyone noticed how jacked Marquez looks recently?! (Relative of course) but he seemed to dwarf Pac in fight 4.

Guillermo Rigondeaux - 12 fights and hes in?

You have Andre Ward at number 2, (fair enough, the guy oozes boxing talent). Yet Carl Froch not anywhere near top 10? Froch sent Ward to number 1 at super middleweight himself, when he brutally dealt with Bute. [/quote]

Putting Broner @ 7 should be a crime…

60

Jab, grab, push down. I can see Wlad’s 4th in the world p4p ranking.

I don’t think he scored 1 knockdown over Povetkin. Every single 1 (ruled by the ref) was either a push or slip. about 5 or 6 in total.

Povetkin, like heavyweight boxing, is fucking dreadful.

Im tired of this shit. we need a super heavyweight division. let these overgrown eastern Europeans hug and grab each other all they want, but don’t let them tarnish boxings premier division. Cap it at 220 or 225.