Boxing Discussion Thread

Training
61

[quote]CarltonJ wrote:
Jab, grab, push down. I can see Wlad’s 4th in the world p4p ranking.

I don’t think he scored 1 knockdown over Povetkin. Every single 1 (ruled by the ref) was either a push or slip. about 5 or 6 in total.

Povetkin, like heavyweight boxing, is fucking dreadful.

Im tired of this shit. we need a super heavyweight division. let these overgrown eastern Europeans hug and grab each other all they want, but don’t let them tarnish boxings premier division. Cap it at 220 or 225. [/quote]

I was disappointed with Povetkin. Thought he would do better than that.

Regarding Triple G: If he is smart, he will stay @ 160 and FAR, FAR away from Andre Ward. Bad match up. Triple G just wouldn’t be able to catch him to use his power. I don’t see anyone knocking off Ward anytime soon. Maybe another match with Froch, and he would lure him into a slugfest and hit him with one of his awkward punches… I think he’s about the only guy that can beat him. And since Ward beat him, I would stay away from him again if I advising him.

I hate Chavez Jr. Def. prefer Khan over him.

He looked like shit vs. Brian Vera. I have Vera winning 7-5. That judge that turned in that wide scorecard should get his license revoked.

62

[quote]CarltonJ wrote:
Jab, grab, push down. I can see Wlad’s 4th in the world p4p ranking.

I don’t think he scored 1 knockdown over Povetkin. Every single 1 (ruled by the ref) was either a push or slip. about 5 or 6 in total.

Povetkin, like heavyweight boxing, is fucking dreadful.

Im tired of this shit. we need a super heavyweight division. let these overgrown eastern Europeans hug and grab each other all they want, but don’t let them tarnish boxings premier division. Cap it at 220 or 225. [/quote]
Amen to capping it at 225. With all these behemoths, it seems like the smaller heavyweights’ days are numbered. The 200+ division is an anachronism from days gone by where there were very few guys who topped 2 bills. Let the smaller guys flourish and the division will rebound.

63

Looks like Cotto’s left hook hasn’t left him yet.

64

[quote]Brett620 wrote:
Looks like Cotto’s left hook hasn’t left him yet.[/quote]

Cotto is going to be a gatekeeper for the rest of his career however i fear.

Hes a very, very good fighter. But he’s just not good enough to handle mayweather (although he did pull off one of his best performances in a long time in that fight IMO) or the future top dogs. I think Canelo would maul him tbh.

He needs to stop switching coaches. He keeps dropping coaches like used condoms, Pedro diaz obviously did some great work for him, because he looked fantastic in the mayweather fight where he had previously been looking very lackluster in previous fights, so why drop him?

65

Vintage Floyd! love him or hate him this is brilliant.

“it takes true skills to be in sport of boxing…and mixed martial arts is for beer drinkers” - hahaha! this is my response next time anyone tries to have the ufc vs boxing debate.

66

[quote]CarltonJ wrote:
Jab, grab, push down. I can see Wlad’s 4th in the world p4p ranking.

I don’t think he scored 1 knockdown over Povetkin. Every single 1 (ruled by the ref) was either a push or slip. about 5 or 6 in total.

Povetkin, like heavyweight boxing, is fucking dreadful.

Im tired of this shit. we need a super heavyweight division. let these overgrown eastern Europeans hug and grab each other all they want, but don’t let them tarnish boxings premier division. Cap it at 220 or 225. [/quote]

With the talent drain from MMA, I’m not sure there might be enough talent left.

It is what it is. Hugging is a part of boxing.

The “rumble in the jungle” was a dreadful fight.
Round starts, some dude leans against the ropes, another dude beats the hell out of those bottom sirloins. Repeat for eight servings. Then he gasses because it’s very hot.
If Povetkin would have finshed Vlad in the 8th, you can bet that in thirty years, russians would have spoken of that bout in the same revered tone as americans today speak of the duel in Kinshasa.

67

hm…talent drain from the mma? the pool of talent in the HW division is probably more like a puddle, its undeniable and massively frustrating. im not so sure its in the mma though??

I’ve never once watched Cain V, Brock Lesner, Frank Mir, JDS etc and thought, wow, these guys are skilled and genetically gifted. obviously they tick a few boxes but for the large part theyre brutes. slow, clambering, overly muscular brutes. take down and pound. at no point in povetkin vs wlad did I think, you know, id like to see them grappling a little on the floor. the only thing that came into my mind was how a fighter as fucking poor as povetkin can ever claim to have once been the wba heavyweight champion of the fucking world. that use to mean something back in the day. I think all kids fantasied at some point about being “THE HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION OF THE WORLD!”.

I think it boils down to that there is only so agile, aesthetically pleasing, fast “graceful” (if that’s the right word) etc. you can be, when youre 6’8 and 250lbs.

id like to see them fuck off to a super heavyweight division. 225+ - no one would watch that and righty so. and the heavyweight divion can go back to being about, modestly big guys, even 5’11 - 6’3, reasonable build, but skilled and technically gifted fighting in boxings most prestigious division.

right now in boxing, if your 6ft, 200lbs, are you going to fight for the heavyweight title? no, course not. your gonna drop to light heavyweight, rather than fighting a guy 6’8 and 260lbs or whatever. doesn’t make sense. its now becoming a joke.

68

[quote]CarltonJ wrote:
hm…talent drain from the mma? the pool of talent in the HW division is probably more like a puddle, its undeniable and massively frustrating. im not so sure its in the mma though??

I’ve never once watched Cain V, Brock Lesner, Frank Mir, JDS etc and thought, wow, these guys are skilled and genetically gifted. obviously they tick a few boxes but for the large part theyre brutes. slow, clambering, overly muscular brutes. take down and pound. at no point in povetkin vs wlad did I think, you know, id like to see them grappling a little on the floor. the only thing that came into my mind was how a fighter as fucking poor as povetkin can ever claim to have once been the wba heavyweight champion of the fucking world. that use to mean something back in the day. I think all kids fantasied at some point about being “THE HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION OF THE WORLD!”.

I think it boils down to that there is only so agile, aesthetically pleasing, fast “graceful” (if that’s the right word) etc. you can be, when youre 6’8 and 250lbs.

id like to see them fuck off to a super heavyweight division. 225+ - no one would watch that and righty so. and the heavyweight divion can go back to being about, modestly big guys, even 5’11 - 6’3, reasonable build, but skilled and technically gifted fighting in boxings most prestigious division.

right now in boxing, if your 6ft, 200lbs, are you going to fight for the heavyweight title? no, course not. your gonna drop to light heavyweight, rather than fighting a guy 6’8 and 260lbs or whatever. doesn’t make sense. its now becoming a joke.

[/quote]

Agreed. Even a prime Tyson would have problems with Klitchsko with his size and his ‘tactics’. If the ref allows him to grab, hold, push and wrestle… He’s hard to beat. Could that with his reach and jab, yeah… Put the boring monsters in their own class. I’d rather watch the 6 ft 210 lb guys

69

yknow the devolution of mike tyson is actually quite dramatic

Almost every fighter I could care to name, retains their style for their whole careers. They get slower, or sloppier, faster or stronger, maybe do something different tacitcally, but stylistically, aesthetically, they remain the same from their pro debuts right up to their retirement. Sergio Martinez for example, looks almost exactly the same as he did in his pro debut, hes just more savvy and experienced now.

Mike on the other hand, not only became a much worse fighter over time tactically, but his entire style changed. I’m not quite sure how to articulate this in words, literally almost every single aspect changed. If you divide his career into different periods, he is almost a different fighter in each time frame.

Look at the danny williams fight, tyson is hunched over the front foot, head leaning forward, high guard. He opts to drop levels to avoid most shots, rather than weave and slip. Even the way he throws punches is different.

Now compare that to this:

Notice the even balance, the head is held slightly off center rather than leaning hunched over the front foot and the hands are held around the chin rather than glued to his temples, punches are executed with much cleaner and closer to textbook technique. The defensive movements are side to side mostly and rolling at the waist to get under hooks as opposed to just changing elevation.

Maybe I’m just seeing things? I know its not a great revelation that tyson got worse, but its just interesting to me how dramatically he changed as a fighter.

70

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
yknow the devolution of mike tyson is actually quite dramatic

Almost every fighter I could care to name, retains their style for their whole careers. They get slower, or sloppier, faster or stronger, maybe do something different tacitcally, but stylistically, aesthetically, they remain the same from their pro debuts right up to their retirement. Sergio Martinez for example, looks almost exactly the same as he did in his pro debut, hes just more savvy and experienced now.

Mike on the other hand, not only became a much worse fighter over time tactically, but his entire style changed. I’m not quite sure how to articulate this in words, literally almost every single aspect changed. If you divide his career into different periods, he is almost a different fighter in each time frame.

Look at the danny williams fight, tyson is hunched over the front foot, head leaning forward, high guard. He opts to drop levels to avoid most shots, rather than weave and slip. Even the way he throws punches is different.

Now compare that to this:

Notice the even balance, the head is held slightly off center rather than leaning hunched over the front foot and the hands are held around the chin rather than glued to his temples, punches are executed with much cleaner and closer to textbook technique. The defensive movements are side to side mostly and rolling at the waist to get under hooks as opposed to just changing elevation.

Maybe I’m just seeing things? I know its not a great revelation that tyson got worse, but its just interesting to me how dramatically he changed as a fighter.

[/quote]

Absolutely. And you know why? It has nothing to do with Cus, which the average boxing fan would point to. It was all about Kevin Rooney. When Kevin left, things changed. Cus was they eyes, but Rooney actually did Mike’s “training”.

When Rooney was working with him in his early career, he was a wrecking ball. When damn Don King got involved and started bring in ‘his guys’, it changed. And when Cus was gone, it was just a slow downward slide until he ran into Douglas.

He trained under Rooney until right after he destroyed Spinks, which was also the highlight of his career.

Watch the Frank Bruno fight, where Bruno hurt Tyson with a left hook. I don’t think Rooney was training him then. Even though Tyson had a great first round, you could see in the Bruno fight he was no longer the same invincible force.

71

fair analysis on Tyson.

just something I think is of note, has any other fighter ever fought so far out of what their physical stature would denote is their ideal boxing weight range/class?- if there is such a thing.

what I mean, in fewer words is, hes 5’10 and fighting at heavyweight! That’s what, the average height of a super welterweight or maybe middleweight now? he was so heavily reliant on his speed. no matter the boxer, ive never seen anyone give away 3+ inches and out jab an opponent, which is what he regularly did.

Tysons game plan had to change and evolve imo. or maybe he should have moved down in weights. that would have suited him. as you reach your mid 20s your speed decreases unavoidably, and what I think is so crucial for him, and his style, is that speed killed!

fcuk this is hard to get across, erm…what I mean is. I think Tyson of 21/22 would beat Wladamir Klitschko. But Tyson of his late 20s no matter the game plan or tactics, would lose.

look at when Tyson and lennox lewis hit their prime. its a different ball game.

72

[quote]CarltonJ wrote:
fair analysis on Tyson.

just something I think is of note, has any other fighter ever fought so far out of what their physical stature would denote is their ideal boxing weight range/class?- if there is such a thing.

what I mean, in fewer words is, hes 5’10 and fighting at heavyweight! That’s what, the average height of a super welterweight or maybe middleweight now? he was so heavily reliant on his speed. no matter the boxer, ive never seen anyone give away 3+ inches and out jab an opponent, which is what he regularly did.

Tysons game plan had to change and evolve imo. or maybe he should have moved down in weights. that would have suited him. as you reach your mid 20s your speed decreases unavoidably, and what I think is so crucial for him, and his style, is that speed killed!

fcuk this is hard to get across, erm…what I mean is. I think Tyson of 21/22 would beat Wladamir Klitschko. But Tyson of his late 20s no matter the game plan or tactics, would lose.

look at when Tyson and lennox lewis hit their prime. its a different ball game. [/quote]

Honestly, I think a Prime Tyson of 21/22 and Wlad Klitschko is a Pick 'em match. Basically 50/50. Tyson either wins by 1st, 2nd or 3rd round KO or Wlad beats him by a decision.

Why do I think that?

Look at the Holmes fight.

Larry is what, 6’3" 250? Take that great size and add three inches.

AND Larry was very successful tying up Mike, although he was trying to box him. Wlad would have tied him up twice as much, and with his good, long, straight punches, he would win rounds from the outside this way. Before a shot, came out of retirement Holmes got knocked out, he actually had some decent success with Mike. I know Holmes gets KO’d, but watch the fight to see how easily he tied up Tyson on the inside, and how effectively he was in doing so.

Contrast Tyson with Floyd Mayweather. Floyd is now 36 and his style relies 100% on speed, timing and reflexes. And after his last 2 fights, those skills show no sign of diminishing. He has not taken much punishment in his long career, but it’s amazing he can sustain that fast counter-puniching style into 36. Amazing.

73

I dont think prime tyson beats Wlad, but he would destroy Vitali.

Fuckin chris byrd gave vitali the shits just by being elusive. And chris byrd is a blown up LHW for all intents and purposes, he reportedly barely cracked the 200lb mark and that was with eating before the weigh in.

Tyson despite his height of 5’10 or 5’11.5 (I think the latter is more accurate, for some reason people come up with all sorts of fantastical theories like cus made him wear lifts just so he’d be a heavyweight - i mean come on thats some mental gymnastics right there) whatever it actually is, he was indeed a true heavyweight, 220lbs at his absolute best shape. Every bit as elusive as Byrd, except far more aggressive and a much more devastating puncher.

74

ha yea. mayweather proves not everyone gets slower with age. Guys a phenomenon though lol. hes 1 in 6 billion.

ye Tysons always looked taller than 5’10 tbf. but not much. either way, hes still very short for a heavyweight. he was at 220 with a large amount of weight training. I think, the way I interpret the term true heavyweight, is a guy that comfortably walks over 200lbs through boxing. heck, and reach should come into it, not just weight. its an uncapped division. his reported (as far as I can tell) reach is 71/72 inches. this is again, well below average.

vitali v wlad is a good debate. but I more like wlad vs lewis! battle of 2 great jabs. I think lewis takes a better shot. Wlad has definetly peaked late(ish). I cant seperate their jabs, maybe wlad edges it, but going forward I think lewis had far more. im going lennox ko win by a monster, hasim rahmen-esq right hand.

75

I like Lewis over Wlad.

Lewis not only had the jab, reach, and size, he had great boxing skills. When has Wlad fought someone like that?

Let’s see the big, long guys he fought: Wach, McCline, Thompson, and Austin. Real “skill” guys lol. None even close to the level of Lennox when it comes to boxing skills. These are all guys between 6’5" and 6’7".

Many times Wlad fights 6’2" guys. Sanders was 6’4" but look at Povetkin, Peter, Byrd, Chageav, Rahman, and Brewster. These are the typical sized guys he fights.

Lennox has a 84" reach.
Wlad has a 81" reach.

Power is up for debate, but IMO Wlad has a heavier jab while Lennox has a better right hand.

I think Lennox would take a UD with footwork and angles.

76

did anyone see Bradley v marquez?!

I thought marquez would ko him, cant believe it.

when I saw them at the weight I thought marquez looked poor. he didn’t look as jacked as when fighting pac, and his conditioning didn’t hold a candle to bradleys. I don’t no if he took the fight seriously enough. maybe he expected to walk through Bradley.

don’t no what others think. I just cant imagine he approached this fight with the same intensity as his 4th with pacman. will he ever be the same again? where can his career go from here? hes already scored the biggest knockout/victory of his career. what else can he achieve? there was the possibility of being the first Mexican 5 division but he still wouldn’t be considered the greatest Mexican imo.
I don’t think he has any interest in a 5th with pacman or rematch with Floyd. will he retire?

where does this leave Bradley? a rematch with Marquez or pac?

still don’t think it moves him that much up the p4p. just moves marquez down for me. not trying to be a hater. the guys a warrior and great guy.

for me.

Floyd
ward
pacman
Martinez
Bradley
froch
marquez
Hopkins
chris john
danny garcia

77

I didn’t like the Bradley/JMM fight. Bradley didn’t want to engage, and he fought half the fight like he had it in the bag. Only time he engaged was the final round (which he lost). Too much running and jabbing for me. But hey, smart game plan- I’ll give him that.

I guess it’s hard to top his last fight in entertainment value.

Bradley and Floyd will never fight, since Bradley fights for Top Rank.

He will have a re-match with Pac, assuming Pac beats Rios.

JMM needs to call it a fine career. He looked his age, and looked ‘drained’ I my opinion.

I liked the Salido fight and I thought Lomancheko looked solid.

78

Marquez came off the roids. Thats what happened to his impressive condition that showed up in the pac fight.

He was getting a lot of negative attention and a big spot light placed on him for having hired Angel Heredia, who was formerly the “chemist” for many well known sprinters. Some say hes probably the best doping expert ever. And supposedly “reformed”. He’s the cocksucker who, where Victor Conte of BALCO said “fuck you” to the authorities when they asked him to roll on these athletes for a reduced sentence, Angel was all to happy to name and shame all parties involved to save his own skin.

So I very much doubt its coincidental or just a rootin tootin new training method that at nearly 40 years old, marquez leans out while putting on some impressive musculature, and a bit of spotty acne around his shoulders, while having Angel on his team.

Fuck me he looked great in the pac fight though. Bigger, faster, stronger indeed.

79

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
Marquez came off the roids. Thats what happened to his impressive condition that showed up in the pac fight.

He was getting a lot of negative attention and a big spot light placed on him for having hired Angel Heredia, who was formerly the “chemist” for many well known sprinters. Some say hes probably the best doping expert ever. And supposedly “reformed”. He’s the cocksucker who, where Victor Conte of BALCO said “fuck you” to the authorities when they asked him to roll on these athletes for a reduced sentence, Angel was all to happy to name and shame all parties involved to save his own skin.

So I very much doubt its coincidental or just a rootin tootin new training method that at nearly 40 years old, marquez leans out while putting on some impressive musculature, and a bit of spotty acne around his shoulders, while having Angel on his team.

Fuck me he looked great in the pac fight though. Bigger, faster, stronger indeed.

[/quote]

Yeah, if someone can do it, post pics of the weigh-in photos of Marquez before the Pacman fight and then with Timmy. Will look like a different dude.

80

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
Marquez came off the roids. Thats what happened to his impressive condition that showed up in the pac fight.

He was getting a lot of negative attention and a big spot light placed on him for having hired Angel Heredia, who was formerly the “chemist” for many well known sprinters. Some say hes probably the best doping expert ever. And supposedly “reformed”. He’s the cocksucker who, where Victor Conte of BALCO said “fuck you” to the authorities when they asked him to roll on these athletes for a reduced sentence, Angel was all to happy to name and shame all parties involved to save his own skin.

So I very much doubt its coincidental or just a rootin tootin new training method that at nearly 40 years old, marquez leans out while putting on some impressive musculature, and a bit of spotty acne around his shoulders, while having Angel on his team.

Fuck me he looked great in the pac fight though. Bigger, faster, stronger indeed.

[/quote]

I strongly disagree with this assertion. Strongly.

C’mon Dave. You’re on THIS site, so you’ve got to know that Marquez being Marquez, is in the top 1 percent or so of the human gene pool. He could add a little muscle, and cut a little fat, and create a much more dramatic look VERY easily, even at 39.

And he looked slower against Bradley, but it was every bit of “styles make fights” - and Bradley fought a smart fight.

I do not believe Marquez took steroids. And I don’t think the Bradley loss was the result of him not taking them.