Big Gain Possible for Squats/Deads?

Training Bodybuilding
1

Mondays are leg days for me, and I’ve recently gone up to 150Kgs for 3x4 in D/L, yet still, my legs laugh and say, “So, when do you want to start lifting?”, yet my back definitely feels it. So much so, I don’t even work my LATS later that week at all, not after Deads. I have to hit those legs with some curls/extensions to shut them up again.

Now, on Squats (@135Kgs), my legs feel those, no doubt, but again, I KNOW if I didn’t have to worry so much about balance, I could squat a hell of a lot more. Mentally, the strain is about staying vertical, much more than just going up.

SO - methinks I have a strength imbalance between legs and lower back, and should do some lower back work. I’m considering cutting both Squat and D/L out tomorrow, and just going for some Good Mornings, which I dearly love, and ab work, which I hardly ever did.

I’m cutting for the next 2-3 months, so big strength gains aren’t YET important for me, but I do want to strengthen any lagging links in the chain, so as make future size gains that much more explicit when I start bulking.

Right? Wrong? Comments?

Thanks,

Jaybee.

2

Consider adding good-mornings to you routine if you don’t already do them.

3

Sounds like you know what you need to do, strengthen the weakest link in the chain. So lower back work (GM’s, hypers) seems like a must. I would definitely give some standing ab work a serious look as well. And possibly some unilateral leg work as it looks like maintaining good balance on your squat is an issue (Split squats, single leg press, etc.)
I wouldn’t give up leg work all together, even if you do take a break from squatting, D/L.

The other thing I would recommend is front squatting. It challenges my core more than back squatting.

Overall it sounds like you’re on the right path with your thinking.

4

Cheers TD, I most definitely won’t renounce leg work altogether, I’ll merely halt Squats + DL until my midsection is as strong, proportionately, as the rest of me, upon which I’ll immediately resume with a vengeance. Meanwhile I’m still going to punish those legs with machine extensions and curls.

That, and my calves are 18" after only BW exercises, I expect I can slam an inch onto them, even during this cutting phase, with an aggressive program of increasing intensity,

You mentioned standing ab work - could you give some examples of movements? I had envisaged using the lat-pull down bar, held behind my neck, and doing some crunches in a kneeling position.

Also, “split-squats” - I take it you do these with a single dumbell and a single leg?

Overall this specialisation stuff is quite interesting, albeit confusing; After at least a decade of training wrongly with isolationist movements, I spent the last 5 years clinging fanatically to doing big compounds every single day of exercise, and now I’ve reached this level I find I’m revisiting a lot of the isolation stuff I had foregone.

5

[quote]Jaybee wrote:
I’ll merely halt Squats + DL until my midsection is as strong, proportionately, as the rest of me, upon which I’ll immediately resume with a vengeance. Meanwhile I’m still going to punish those legs with machine extensions and curls.[/quote]

I don’t agree with this if your goal is to bring up your DL and squat numbers. Keep doing DLs and squats, perhaps back off in volume, and add in additional lower back and “core” (hate that word) work.

Some exercises would be standing ab crunches using cable machine, overhead squats, do overhead shoulder work standing up, weighted good mornings, weighted hypers, stiff-leg deads, etc.

6

[quote]Jaybee wrote:
Mondays are leg days for me, and I’ve recently gone up to 150Kgs for 3x4 in D/L, yet still, my legs laugh and say, “So, when do you want to start lifting?”, yet my back definitely feels it. So much so, I don’t even work my LATS later that week at all, not after Deads.

I have to hit those legs with some curls/extensions to shut them up again.

Now, on Squats (@135Kgs), my legs feel those, no doubt, but again, I KNOW if I didn’t have to worry so much about balance, I could squat a hell of a lot more. Mentally, the strain is about staying vertical, much more than just going up.

SO - methinks I have a strength imbalance between legs and lower back, and should do some lower back work. I’m considering cutting both Squat and D/L out tomorrow, and just going for some Good Mornings, which I dearly love, and ab work, which I hardly ever did.[/quote]

The first thing is whether your conclusion follows from the facts provided.

To summarize, you seem to be saying that because:

  1. Your DL is 150 kg for 3x4 while the squat is 135 for unspecified reps and sets,

  2. You feel DL’s in the back

  3. You don’t feel DL’s in the legs and need further exercise for the legs to feel tired

  4. You do feel squats in the legs, and

  5. You find difficulty in staying vertical in the squat

That therefore your lower back and perhaps abs are the weak link.

Well,

  1. Unless that squat weight is for substantially more reps than mentioned for the DL, or unless you are particularly built for deadlifting and therefore should have more of a differential, the weights don’t necessarily mean that your lower back is necessarily weaker.

  2. You are supposed to feel DL’s in the back

  3. It’s OK for the legs to feel as if they need extra work after DL’s, and while if only DL’s are done the hams typically will feel worked AFTERWARDS, they may not feel that way at the time

  4. You’re supposed to feel squats in the legs

  5. I’m not sure which plane you’re talking about, whether your trouble is tending to list to one side or the other (tending to go off vertical in the sagittal plane) or whether you’re saying you’re having trouble keeping the upper body vertical in the frontal plane throughout the squat – shoulders staying directly above hips.

If the first, then I wouldn’t suspect lower back and am not sure what your problem is or how to address it.

If the second, the upper body is not supposed to be vertical throughout the squat, even though some authors say so.

Good mornings are always a good idea though. As to whether you need to stop squatting and DL’ing, that doesn’t follow to me.

7

Thanks for the well-considered response Bill. My problem with Squats is the struggle to not pitch back or forth. On a Smith machine, I am positive I could lift much more.

I’m sure my back is not ABSOLUTELY vertical during the movement, I would suspect strongly it is a degree or two bent forward, I’ve never videoed my form from the side, but I’m sure I’d topple back if I were only a degree bent back at the hip.

8

Without seeing, it still sounds possible that your problem is a belief system that you should be near vertical throughout the squat.

I’m not saying you should necessarily have as much forward lean as typical for, for example, powerlifters, but why not watch some powerlifting videos for inspiration towards being more comfortable with the idea of having what may be the best forward lean for you, which may be more than you’re doing?

Perhaps the reason you’re having trouble maintaining what you think correct – “a degree or two bent forward” – when this may actually not really be what is right for you.

Another thing you could try is good morning squats. In these, you do a good morning in squatting stance, and at the bottom position, squat down. Then rise up staying at least mostly bent over, then straight up only after the legs are straightened.

Of course this is more forward lean than squats themselves should be, but will have double benefits of being a strengthening exercise and getting you more comfortable with forward lean, even extreme forward lean, in the squat, and thus better able to deal with inadvertently being a little more forward leaned than intended when this may occur. (But again I suspect that what you now intend may well be actually not enough forward lean for you.)

9

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Without seeing, it still sounds possible that your problem is a belief system that you should be near vertical throughout the squat.

I’m not saying you should necessarily have as much forward lean as typical for, for example, powerlifters, but why not watch some powerlifting videos for inspiration towards being more comfortable with the idea of having what may be the best forward lean for you, which may be more than you’re doing?[/quote]

Tell you what I’ll do, mate, as well as watching video of other lifters this week, I’ll set up the camera next week and shoot myself squatting. At the moment I’m just guessing how bent over I am, which is subjective (to put it politely). With reviewable footage I’ll have some FACTS to relay.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:Another thing you could try is good morning squats. In these, you do a good morning in squatting stance, and at the bottom position, squat down. Then rise up staying at least mostly bent over, then straight up only after the legs are straightened.

Of course this is more forward lean than squats themselves should be, but will have double benefits of being a strengthening exercise and getting you more comfortable with forward lean, even extreme forward lean, in the squat, and thus better able to deal with inadvertently being a little more forward leaned than intended when this may occur. [/quote]

You’re most certainly onto something here. Yes, I’ll try those modified GM’s today.

Do you mean my current degree of lean?

10

Yes, I meant that your current degree of lean, which

  1. You describe as being only a degree or two away from vertical, and

  2. Which, while trying to maintain it, you are having trouble squatting

may not be enough lean for you.

Sounds like a great idea taking the video and comparing with other lifters.

11

Ok, I tried them, did 3 x 4 @ 70Kg’s…the movement has a distinctly alien feel about it, it’s a very unnatural circuit of motion, but I suspect that is just my body complaining about it’s weakest link being victimised.

Just to make sure my lower back knows who’s boss, I also topped off with 2 sets, 6 reps each, of regular GM’s. However, even though I had another set in me, I haven’t done them in a while, so I called a halt there. Never had back trouble, but as we know, moderation in increased workload is the key.

:slight_smile: