Why the squat is better:
Deadlift
from: http://www.power4sport.co.uk/Strength%20Training%20for%20Sprinters.html
The deadlift activates many of the same muscle groups as the squat, i.e. Knee and hip extensors, in addition to grip and upper back muscles. The deadlift is however a less popular choice for sprinters for two reasons. Firstly, since deadlifts have a shorter range of movement, and provide little to no eccentric stimulus, time under tension is significantly lower than when squatting. Additionally, deadlifts are renowned for inducing significant CNS fatigue (more than any other exercise) which may impact upon the quality of subsequent training sessions.
[quote]Shadowzz4 wrote:
When someone vertical jumps they are basically trying create a rapid eccentric motion and the hip and ankle, I would go as far as to say the knee flexion is behind the first two in terms of importance. Also, this is done in a very small ROM relative to how lifts are done. The whole trick when jumping is to create tension at these joints rapidly, this is also done in a relatively short ROM. So, high tension, small ROM, get up fast and high.
Now, yes the muscles at the bottom of a squat are those responsible for jumping, and Im not saying that deep squats dont help jumping ability, however, why not use an exercise that involves the posterior chain in much the same way jumping does by getting it involved right away, not at past 90 degrees of knee flexion like a squat, work on the deadlift!!![/quote]
[quote]TrenchDawg wrote:
Why the squat is better:
Deadlift
from: http://www.power4sport.co.uk/Strength%20Training%20for%20Sprinters.html
The deadlift activates many of the same muscle groups as the squat, i.e. Knee and hip extensors, in addition to grip and upper back muscles. The deadlift is however a less popular choice for sprinters for two reasons. Firstly, since deadlifts have a shorter range of movement, and provide little to no eccentric stimulus, time under tension is significantly lower than when squatting. Additionally, deadlifts are renowned for inducing significant CNS fatigue (more than any other exercise) which may impact upon the quality of subsequent training sessions.
Shadowzz4 wrote:
When someone vertical jumps they are basically trying create a rapid eccentric motion and the hip and ankle, I would go as far as to say the knee flexion is behind the first two in terms of importance. Also, this is done in a very small ROM relative to how lifts are done. The whole trick when jumping is to create tension at these joints rapidly, this is also done in a relatively short ROM. So, high tension, small ROM, get up fast and high.
Now, yes the muscles at the bottom of a squat are those responsible for jumping, and Im not saying that deep squats dont help jumping ability, however, why not use an exercise that involves the posterior chain in much the same way jumping does by getting it involved right away, not at past 90 degrees of knee flexion like a squat, work on the deadlift!!!
[/quote]
Thanks,
I never looked at it from that point…however, I can just “feel” that squats are better off for increasing vert.
However, I do believe deads are a superior exercise for building speed in the first 10 yards…
I can palm the ball easily, but whenever I try to go on a left right approach which is the opposite foot to hand approach (I’m right handed), I just feel like I can’t jump, however, if I wanted to jump and spin 360 in the air, I would have to use a left right approach, I guess it’s also the angle in which you plant your foot in which allows your jump to be effective (if you get me).
It also seems like when I jump with the ball, I take the two steps and then there’s a pause between my arm swing and the last step, I got to work on this. What I’m planning to do now is, wear my weights belt and jump with the ball, both hands going up, smack the backboard and then shoot, hopefully this will improve my technique for jumping with the ball. I also still haven’t solved the two hand touch approach, my two hand reach is like around 4-5cm shorter than my one hand reach but then I can only get around 5cm above the rim with two hands… I guess it’s all technique work…
I reckon were talking full atg squats vs. deadlifts here, so…
Do you think one should take muscle imbalances into consideration when choosing between the two (if you had to choose one or the other)?
I have a jumper’s knee condition, which among other things, is a cause of my quads being stronger than my posterior chain.
Now, at least for me, I’ve never been able to work my hamstrings with atg squats the way I’ve worked them with deads. Yeah I can feel it in the area where the glute and hamstring muscles meet, right underneath the buttocks, but for the most part, I’ll feel it in my quads. With deads, I’ll almost always feel it in my hamstrings.
Do you think this is something that should be considered?
The deadlift activates many of the same muscle groups as the squat, i.e. Knee and hip extensors, in addition to grip and upper back muscles. The deadlift is however a less popular choice for sprinters for two reasons. Firstly, since deadlifts have a shorter range of movement, and provide little to no eccentric stimulus, time under tension is significantly lower than when squatting. Additionally, deadlifts are renowned for inducing significant CNS fatigue (more than any other exercise) which may impact upon the quality of subsequent training sessions.***
all terrific points…
especially about range of motion…when done correctly the olymic back squat has a much better range of motion than the deadlift, in fact no person i know of can squat (olympic style) more than they can deadlift because the range of motion is so much greater in the sqt…
im talking butt just a couple inches above the floor here, not powerlifting squat where your squat could possibly be a couple hundred pounds more than your dead…
You cant compare weight done on a deadlift to weight done during a squat. The two are totally different movements. And when your talking about actually getting stronger and more powerful its not always how much weight you cant put halfway down your back and “squat”, it is how much force the muscles have to create to do the exercise.
I would be interested to see during a heavy deadlift if the force generated by the glutes was more or less than during a squat of even more weight. Because, remember its torque that matters most. Maybe your squatting 600 halfway down your back, but if you are deadlifting 405 and have a lever (your back) that is twice as long as during the squat, what is the actual force output at that joint? I think alot of people like to think the squat is better than the deadlift because it is easier to do and more weight can be used, however, peak force may be lower.
And when people talk about range of motion, what range of motion is that? the main difference between a deadlift and a squat is the knee flexion, but like I said in my post above, you are really lifting more weight than you think with a deadlift.
[quote]Thorbjorn wrote:
Muscle imbalances is always something you must consider when trying to improve as an athlete.
Having jumpers knee, I would personally concentrate on bringing the posterior chain up to par with your quads strength. [/quote]
I could be wrong, but I thought jumper’s knee was caused because of all the quarter-squatting that is done when jumping in a sport and that ATG squats can help correct this. I’m a college volleyball player and in-season my ME lifts are usually ATG back or front squats.
I’m no medical professinal though, so take that with a grain of salt.
I dont think jumpers knee has as much to do with that limited ROM while jumping as it does the extremely high forces at the knee joint, which are much higher than even the heaviest squat and repeated over the day/week/season, with less than optimal rest.
***You cant compare weight done on a deadlift to weight done during a squat. The two are totally different movements.
What? why cant you compare the weights typically used in each motion? it just reaffirms that this particular type of squat is indeed a greater range of motion than the deadlift…
there are some rare instances of guys, those freaks, shane hamman types…who might be able to squat more due to how much additional adipose tissue they have around their belly however it is still typically true that most people can dead more than they can olympic style squat…shoot i can rdl more than i can squat…this is the norm
And when your talking about actually getting stronger and more powerful its not always how much weight you cant put halfway down your back and “squat”, it is how much force the muscles have to create to do the exercise.*
good point and the greatest force is generated in the deepest squatting position…the book science and practice really goes well into depth about this…thats another reason why sprinters probably pay such close attention to squats
I think alot of people like to think the squat is better than the deadlift because it is easier to do and more weight can be used, however, peak force may be lower.*
simply put no…not even remotely true…most people can not squat a$$ to grass with a weight even close to their best dead…there are freaky exceptions…those shane hamman types but this is just completely inaccurate
I’m surprised how little attention people are giving to the quads particularly the VMO and its importance to jumping. C-Thib would be very disapointed! haha. the VMO is usually underdeveloped in most athletes and it can play an important part in vert. check out all of the best jumping athletes in the world and notice their quad development. The best way to train the quads and VMO: full front and back squat!!! go figue.
[quote]LittleBigMuscles wrote:
I’m surprised how little attention people are giving to the quads particularly the VMO and its importance to jumping. C-Thib would be very disapointed! haha. the VMO is usually underdeveloped in most athletes and it can play an important part in vert. check out all of the best jumping athletes in the world and notice their quad development. The best way to train the quads and VMO: full front and back squat!!! go figue.[/quote]
Look at the quat development of the best jumping athletes, it is not always very impressive, glutes are much more commonly the larger (relative of the two…) Vince Carter, Amare Stoudemire, polio legs until you get to the glutes I bet.
And for measure the amount of torque at the hip joint you would look at someone deadlifting and draw a line straight up from where they are holding the bar, then draw a line straight up from where the center of their hip is. Do the same thing for a squat and compare the two.
And I dont know who started putting ATG in this thread Im not really comparing ATG vs. Deadlift because there are people that go to their heels and then their are people that go halfway past parallel and heels, there are alot of inbetweens. So, noting this, lets hear a reason why people can squat more than they deadlift, if the lift in and of itself doesnt require more force at the hip joint (deads that is)
It has nothing to do where your back begins and ends in a squat compared to a deadlift, it matters where on the back the force is applied. In a deadlift the force is applied in a direct line down from the shoulder joint, in a squat it could be halfway down your back, thus giving you much better leverage yes, but at the same time decreasing the force you need to complete the lift.
I do find it very interesting that during Woodhouse’s (the article link) discussed powr to BW ratio, he really stressed that gaining strength must be relative to BW or it wouldn’t carry over to performance gains… very true.
He therefore, and IMO correctly, recommends low repetition ranges to avoid non-functional hypertrophy.
But, during the dealift critique, he criticizes them for a much lesser eccentric phase… hmmm. But we know that the eccentric contribute more to the formation of new muscle…
I just find it interesting.
I use Trap Bar Deads quite frequently with my athletes, and do unilateral type squats, step-ups, and lunge work. This has more to do with my particular training environment and business plan, but… the gains are very nice.
I find that the unilateral work, coupled with reactive work with DB’s and vests, along with Trap Bar Deads (chains, and boxes included for variety), really produces nice results…
I have found that I see very good carryover from uni-lateral work to running, and 1-Legged jumping…
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
Thorbjorn wrote:
Muscle imbalances is always something you must consider when trying to improve as an athlete.
Having jumpers knee, I would personally concentrate on bringing the posterior chain up to par with your quads strength.
I could be wrong, but I thought jumper’s knee was caused because of all the quarter-squatting that is done when jumping in a sport and that ATG squats can help correct this. I’m a college volleyball player and in-season my ME lifts are usually ATG back or front squats.
I’m no medical professinal though, so take that with a grain of salt.[/quote]
Yeah that’s what I’ve learned also, but all of that quarter squatting has strengthened the quads a lot more than the pc, so when you’re doing ATGs, your quads take most of the loading. I’ve asked around a lot about this, and pretty much everyone states that the pc muscles need to be strengthened first and foremost, while giving the quads a rest. after a while though, I believe one could start squatting ATG.
[quote]Jumanji wrote:
I do find it very interesting that during Woodhouse’s (the article link) discussed powr to BW ratio, he really stressed that gaining strength must be relative to BW or it wouldn’t carry over to performance gains… very true.
He therefore, and IMO correctly, recommends low repetition ranges to avoid non-functional hypertrophy.
But, during the dealift critique, he criticizes them for a much lesser eccentric phase… hmmm. But we know that the eccentric contribute more to the formation of new muscle…
I just find it interesting.
I use Trap Bar Deads quite frequently with my athletes, and do unilateral type squats, step-ups, and lunge work. This has more to do with my particular training environment and business plan, but… the gains are very nice.
I find that the unilateral work, coupled with reactive work with DB’s and vests, along with Trap Bar Deads (chains, and boxes included for variety), really produces nice results…
I have found that I see very good carryover from uni-lateral work to running, and 1-Legged jumping…
Just my .02.
J[/quote]
Very good point about the non-functional hypertrophy, I imagine you could pack on quite a bit of mass…more than you could justify given the increase in power.
Shadowzz, most elite athletes train in the low rep range of 1-6. It is unlikely that you would gain non functional hypertrophy from 3 sets of 3 in heavy ATG back squats.