Tempo squats
[quote]PGA200X wrote:
Going ass to grass is necessary for vertical jump? First time I ever heard that one…[/quote]
Yep, news to me until 6 months or so ago. Never in my 26 years of life did i think that doing squats would imrove my vertical jump. In fact, I stupidly thought they would only slow me down. I, like alot of people, thought pylo’s were the only way.
Thats the beautiful thing about T-Nation - always something new to learn and incorporate. In just the past year Ive radically changed everything I ate, went from isolation lifting thinking to full body lifting, and started strength training my legs in order to increase speed and vert. Obviously I squatted before, but never with the reckless abandon I do now. Now that I know i can increase speed and vert jump by doing leg work, its taken a whole new love with me. Im not just “doin legs” because I need to do such a thing. I look forward to leg day, every time I get under the bar, cause each time will take me to my goals .
I hit a PB last night. 33 inch in the vert. I was around 25 about a year ago(although I was carrying around excess weight)
[quote]TrenchDawg,
I disagree to some extent. I agree that for running, there is nothing worse than poor hamstring development. However, just think about the motion that is involved in jumping, the knee bend is typically going to be right at about 30 degrees and even less for a run-up jump. The quads are just as, if not more, important for a vertical jump than the posterior chain.
However, I think anybody will agree that the key is to address your weaknesses. IMO, the reason that posterior-chain exercises are so important for vertical jump is that most people are ridiculously underdeveloped in that area to begin with. Once an athlete is balanced, I think equal attention should be given to quads and the posterior chain.
[/quote]
According to Poliquin, the glutes and hamstrings contribute 65% of the power for running and jumping. With glutes 40% and hammies 25%. I’m sure the ankles/calf, quad and shoulder contribute to some degree as well.
Interesting points from Kelly Baggett:
I thought this was interesting from Kelly Baggett:
The fact is you can strengthen the muscles involved in these movements much better with a deep range of motion. For example, studies have shown that if you raise your ability to create and manipulate force in a biomechanically disadvantageous stretched position, such as the point where the upper leg is parallel to the ground in the squat, then your ability to create force at all other joint angles and positions will increase as well.
An increase in strength in the least advantageous position will raise strength throughout the entire range of motion but the inverse isn’t true. So a 20% increase in strength in a quarter squat will not correlate to a 20% increase in a full squat.
So the easiest and fastest way to get stronger in a lift in a way that will transfer over to “partial range sports movements” is to simply concentrate your efforts on raising your strength in the range with the poorest leverage. In the case of the squat this position will be in the “full” squat position, so make sure you go all the way down.
Now, another important consideration is remember the goal of strength training is to strengthen the “muscles” involved in the movement. The muscles of the posterior chain, the glutes (butt), hamstrings, and lower back are heavily involved in jumping and sprinting along with the muscles of the quadriceps and calves.
[quote]TrenchDawg wrote:
Exactly, what type of structure is that? The reason I ask is that there are European triple jumpers and high jumpers who are about as elastic as Lebron James and don’t possess the mechanical/structural advantages. Stefan Holm comes to mind.
Have you read much on DB Hammer and Kelly Baggetts’ training theories on improving reactivity in the PF and hamstring? There is a lot of evidence that points toward the fact that tendon stiffness can be improved.
Dont’ sell yourself short, Colin.
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Well by stucture I’m not talking about the high calves long achilles tendon thing that everyone seems to focus on. That may have some effect on the one legged jump or top speed sprinting, but for the 2 legged jump I don’t think it has much effect. And even then the lower leg generates crap all force, it just needs to be stable to transmit force. It’s the hams, quads, glutes and erectors that do the work.
More to do with how the quads/hams/glutes etc all line up when taking in and applying force. The muscle belly to tendon ratios of these muscles etc. I have very full muscle bellies in my quads, glutes and hams. Calves are about medium.
I have huge quads, glutes and hams for my frame! So my musclse tend to do most of the work. I can jump pretty well even with a long pause.
But I don’t “muscle” my movements - I have good movement effeciency and can jump with minimal leg bend
I don’t think reactivity is something thats globally the same in all movement vectors. I have pretty decent reactivity in the horizontal plain - bounding, sprinting etc. I bounce and skip pretty well there, especially considering my bodyweight. But not as good vertically, relatively speaking. Just how my body is put together.
LOL - you don’t need to preach to me about Kelly’s and DB’s stuff, I live and breath that stuff and have so for the last couple of years 
I’m thankful to them, they really opened up my eyes, and changed eveyrthing I do. I’m finally heading where I want to be
strength work is just meant to work the muscles in a full range in the correct vector.
The depth doesn’t have to be specific
even better if you work the muscles in the weakest joint angle, so that means full depth. A pause at the bottom isn’t a bad idea too to stop the bouncing in full squats and force the glutes/hams to do the work off the bottom.
Lowering under control in the bottom third to make the hams work as well.
I used to lower fast and bounce at the bottom and that meant my hams lagged way behind in eccentric control. I couldn’t control even 60% of my 1RM before. But I fixed that in the last year or so.
and lo and behold I fixed the GM thing I used to do as well on the way up
http://www.T-Nation.com/findArticle.do?article=306dirt2
" DIRTY TRICK #4 ? PEAK FOR YOUR VERTICAL JUMP BY PERFORMING 50-REP RHYTHM SQUATS!
This is one of the dirtiest, sneakiest, and toughest exercises you?ll ever perform. It?s great for training the elastic component of your muscles along with the Achilles tendon.
I use 50-rep rhythm squats as a “peaking” exercise. My athletes perform this exercise once a week for 3 weeks before being tested in the vertical jump. The last “rhythm-squat” workout would be completed 4-6 days before being tested in the vertical jump. 50-rep rhythm squats would always be the first exercise of the workout.
After a proper warm-up, you?ll perform one all-out set of this exercise. After this exercise is completed, I usually like performing another explosive exercise such as box jumps, push jerks, etc.
This exercise is done by performing 50 quarter-squats as fast as possible. Do the first 10 reps exploding onto your toes; then, on reps 11-20 keep your feet flat on the way up; explode onto your toes again while performing reps 21-30; keep your heels down for reps 31-40, and then finish the final 10 reps by exploding onto your toes again.
It helps to have a partner count out loud so you can perform all 50 reps as fast as possible without breaking momentum.
I also like using a green Jump-Stretch band around the bar (see pics below) for two reasons: First of all, the band helps to accelerate the eccentric portion of the lift. This will further work the elastic component of your muscles and train your body to rapidly descend.
Secondly, due to the explosive nature of the exercise, the bar has a tendency to bounce up and down on your cervical spine. This doesn?t tickle! The bands help to hold and stabilize the bar on your neck."
[quote]
Well by stucture I’m not talking about the high calves long achilles tendon thing that everyone seems to focus on. That may have some effect on the one legged jump or top speed sprinting, but for the 2 legged jump I don’t think it has much effect. And even then the lower leg generates crap all force, it just needs to be stable to transmit force. It’s the hams, quads, glutes and erectors that do the work.
More to do with how the quads/hams/glutes etc all line up when taking in and applying force. The muscle belly to tendon ratios of these muscles etc. I have very full muscle bellies in my quads, glutes and hams. Calves are about medium.
I have huge quads, glutes and hams for my frame! So my musclse tend to do most of the work. I can jump pretty well even with a long pause.
But I don’t “muscle” my movements - I have good movement effeciency and can jump with minimal leg bend
I don’t think reactivity is something thats globally the same in all movement vectors. I have pretty decent reactivity in the horizontal plain - bounding, sprinting etc. I bounce and skip pretty well there, especially considering my bodyweight. But not as good vertically, relatively speaking. Just how my body is put together.
LOL - you don’t need to preach to me about Kelly’s and DB’s stuff, I live and breath that stuff and have so for the last couple of years
I’m thankful to them, they really opened up my eyes, and changed eveyrthing I do. I’m finally heading where I want to be [/quote]
That’s great. What type of improvements have you made since adopting DB’s methods?
Check out his thread on the DB hammer message board. He has a pretty detailed workout log there.
The forum also has a lot of other cool stuff to check out.
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
Check out his thread on the DB hammer message board. He has a pretty detailed workout log there.
The forum also has a lot of other cool stuff to check out.[/quote]
jtrin,
is that at inno-sport? I’m having trouble finding it. thanks,
TR
im a strength coach
as one of the greatest strength scientists, zatsiorsky, points out, the muscles responsible for jumping are not those in the 1st quarter of the squat…so half squats are a terrible idea
squats with chains are not a bad idea…chain and band work in general with snatch pulls and clean pulls is what i would recommend…they have already been recommended im sure but performing them is sometimes alot more difficult than the average athlete can handle…i reccomend looking for a certified usaw coach to help
to increase vertical you must consistently toy with strength and speed…zatsiorsky called it the time deficit zone…
he uses this example
16yr old kid goes from 90 kilos back squat to double bodyweight and increases his vert 4 inches. he then increases his back squat all the way to triple bodyweight but gains nothing in the vertical…this is something coaches have alot of trouble properly attacking…
in this instance the athlete should have spent more time on getting stronger in the first few moments of the vertical jump…in other words, getting faster…its actually most common in shot putters who spend too much time getting stronger but not enough becoming more dynamic…you need to be strong but you wont be able to apply that strength unless you train with speed work as well
Guys, I too need help on my vertical leap. I am 15, 5’ 7", and I have parallel squatted 405 pounds for 15 reps. But my vertical is only 38 inches and my goal is 45. So should I just do quarter squats?
[quote]nbutka wrote:
in this instance the athlete should have spent more time on getting stronger in the first few moments of the vertical jump…in other words, getting faster…its actually most common in shot putters who spend too much time getting stronger but not enough becoming more dynamic…you need to be strong but you wont be able to apply that strength unless you train with speed work as well
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Good example. When you say the athlete should have spent more time in the first few moments of the vertical jump do you mean the toe off? I imagine tempo squats, which were mentioned earlier, or 1/4 jump squats would be good in this instance.
[quote]nbutka wrote:
im a strength coach
as one of the greatest strength scientists, zatsiorsky, points out, the muscles responsible for jumping are not those in the 1st quarter of the squat…so half squats are a terrible idea
squats with chains are not a bad idea…chain and band work in general with snatch pulls and clean pulls is what i would recommend…they have already been recommended im sure but performing them is sometimes alot more difficult than the average athlete can handle…i reccomend looking for a certified usaw coach to help
to increase vertical you must consistently toy with strength and speed…zatsiorsky called it the time deficit zone…
he uses this example
16yr old kid goes from 90 kilos back squat to double bodyweight and increases his vert 4 inches. he then increases his back squat all the way to triple bodyweight but gains nothing in the vertical…this is something coaches have alot of trouble properly attacking…
in this instance the athlete should have spent more time on getting stronger in the first few moments of the vertical jump…in other words, getting faster…its actually most common in shot putters who spend too much time getting stronger but not enough becoming more dynamic…you need to be strong but you wont be able to apply that strength unless you train with speed work as well
[/quote]
Those are definitly good points. At a certain point, I think maximal strength just creates a larger force curve and power work is needed to keep the curve very sharp. I’m personally not a big fan of the snatch pulls and clean pulls, but I know they have worked for some. I think that reactive jump squats with very light weight can go a long way towards pulling an athlete back towards having stronger reactivity; that and practicing jumping! I think a lot of people forget that jumping is indeed a skill and the more you practice the movement in a non-fatigued state, the better and more fluid you will get at it. Good examples are the olympic lifts. Elite level weightlifters expend less energy than novice lifters, even with more weight. I think that simply practicing doing the movements fluidly (movement efficiency) is often overlooked. Colin has talked about this on here.
“I am only 5 foot 7 and am white(hehe).”
You only show your ignorance by proliferating nonsense stereotypes like this. Grow up and educate yourself; that also goes for everyone else who thinks this shit is funny and meaningless.
trench dawg…
zatsiorsky points out maximal force is developed in the deepest squatting position…the more force you develop there, the better vert jump…thats why i recommend olympic style (a$$ to grass) close stance squats with bands or chains or jump squats practiced from a deeper squatting position…
if you dont have a double bw olympic style back squat, chances are you dont need to focus too much on dynamic work anyway…
jtrinsey i agree for the most part…but the reason why i think most aren’t high on snatch or clean pulls is because begginners truly struggle to learn them…if an athlete puts 2 years into olympic lifts and their variations from a good coach, he or she will see tremendous results…too few are willing to invest the time…which is why one of the many reasons usa weightlifting is terrible compared to other countries…
we are a nation which wants instant results and the olympic lifts require patience…
i’m not saying there arent other ways, just that i think this is the best way for the dedicated athlete…
[quote]nbutka wrote:
jtrinsey i agree for the most part…but the reason why i think most aren’t high on snatch or clean pulls is because begginners truly struggle to learn them…if an athlete puts 2 years into olympic lifts and their variations from a good coach, he or she will see tremendous results…too few are willing to invest the time…which is why one of the many reasons usa weightlifting is terrible compared to other countries…
we are a nation which wants instant results and the olympic lifts require patience…
i’m not saying there arent other ways, just that i think this is the best way for the dedicated athlete…[/quote]
I agree. I think we should teach proper squat, clean and snatch form when the kids are in 8th-9th grade. Start them with a broom stick until the technique is sound. BTW, this is exactly what Glenn Pendlay does at WFWC. He has 10th graders who can clean 300 pounds and ATG squat 400. He’s doing something right. Also, they squat 3x a week.
i know glenn, glenn is one of the few truly good coaches whose also a good person…
he takes his time out to help anyone
I’ve seen a lot of people saw already, but speed is the problem here, not limit strength.
I’m the perfect example. I used to be able to dunk before I had reconstructive knee surgery. So now, two years post surgery, my leg strength maxes are all about 10% higher than before my surgery. My legs are slmost stronger than they’ve ever been, definitely stronger than when I could dunk just a few years ago. My flexibility is also just about equal to what it was but I can’t quite dunk yet. Why? Because I don’t do near as much jumping and plyo-type excercises. When I gather to jump one footed or two footed (I used to be abel to dunk both ways) now I just feel really sluggish and I can’t get quite the same explosiveness.
When your strength levels are solid, the best way to jump higher is just to practice jumping higher. Weights alone can’t maximize your athletic ability, you also have to develop the athletic movement too.
[quote]djm_e22 wrote:
bonzi50 wrote:
“I am only 5 foot 7 and am white(hehe).”
You only show your ignorance by proliferating nonsense stereotypes like this. Grow up and educate yourself; that also goes for everyone else who thinks this shit is funny and meaningless.
Screw you bonze50. I meant nothing by it. I was giving Spud Webb respect for his ability to jump at his height. I was making fun of me being white and trying to jump, because most people think white people can’t jump. I also meant nothing racist by this. I told my girlfriend I bet some idiot would say something. We found the idiot. [/quote]
I know you ment nothing racist by it. it was an ignorant statement. you somehow wanted to feel better about the fact that you can’t jump and so you “jokingly” refered to the fact that you are white. all in good fun and humor. right? but it was just stupid and shows just how stupid you are. how about you go do some 1/8th squats to improve your ego.
[quote]bonzi50 wrote:
djm_e22 wrote:
bonzi50 wrote:
“I am only 5 foot 7 and am white(hehe).”
You only show your ignorance by proliferating nonsense stereotypes like this. Grow up and educate yourself; that also goes for everyone else who thinks this shit is funny and meaningless.
Screw you bonze50. I meant nothing by it. I was giving Spud Webb respect for his ability to jump at his height. I was making fun of me being white and trying to jump, because most people think white people can’t jump. I also meant nothing racist by this. I told my girlfriend I bet some idiot would say something. We found the idiot.
I know you ment nothing racist by it. it was an ignorant statement. you somehow wanted to feel better about the fact that you can’t jump and so you “jokingly” refered to the fact that you are white. all in good fun and humor. right? but it was just stupid and shows just how stupid you are. how about you go do some 1/8th squats to improve your ego.
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Alright, alright, let’s stop the highjack and get back on topic. This has been a good thread with a lot of interesting info in it, so let’s not ruin this by letting it turn into a flame war.