This is a great thread and I appreciate getting everyone’s input. It seems that most of what is here is anecdotal experiences. I know that we have a lot of scholars here. Does anyone know of any research done on, say, atg squatting vs. parallel depth squats?
[quote]Matgic wrote:
Come on? Can anyone explain how ATG is the most “natural” form of squatting?
-MAtt[/quote]
I am not making a case either way, but check the squat form on a young child. They will naturally sit down on their heels.
[quote]Krollmonster wrote:
Matgic wrote:
Come on? Can anyone explain how ATG is the most “natural” form of squatting?
-MAtt
I am not making a case either way, but check the squat form on a young child. They will naturally sit down on their heels.[/quote]
I understand. The post was more of a bump because it seemed that noone was responding.
And yes, if you ask a child to squat or sit down, this would be the case. But if you ask a child to move a heavy object like a couch, a table, or something else (probably not a good idea anyway haha) they will more likely do a deadlift variation or a squat to parallel or less.
But yes, for playing marbles, picking up rubber balls, and using action figures, I agree that this is more natural tha to stay suspended at parallel.
-MAtt
Interesting discussion, guys. I hadn’t given it much outward thought, doing my own thing in my own little world and this is my first post here.
I don’t have a bias for one over the other as I do both and find both equally natural. Actually I’ll often do one to get reprieve from the other as they target different parts of the body.
I find ATG squats and pistols (which is also done ATG but one legged) involves a lot of knee flexion, fatiguing the muscles around the knee. When this happens in my routine, I’ll move on to parallel squats (box squat without box). If this still contributes to soreness or fatigue around the knee, I’ll widen the stance a lot more. With such a wide stance, it can only be done parallel anyway and will feature excessive hip flexion, also working different leg muscles.
So I move between the two styles of squat with the view of knee flexion vs hip flexion.
Interesting discussion, guys. I hadn’t given it much outward thought, doing my own thing in my own little world and this is my first post here.
I don’t have a bias for one over the other as I do both and find both equally natural. Actually I’ll often do one to get reprieve from the other as they target different parts of the body.
I find ATG squats and pistols (which is also done ATG but one legged) involves a lot of knee flexion, fatiguing the muscles around the knee. When this happens in my routine, I’ll move on to parallel squats (box squat without box). If this still contributes to soreness or fatigue around the knee, I’ll widen the stance a lot more. With such a wide stance, it can only be done parallel anyway and will feature excessive hip flexion, also working different leg muscles.
So I move between the two styles of squat with the view of knee flexion vs hip flexion.
[quote]hankl wrote:
When this happens in my routine, I’ll move on to parallel squats (box squat without box)[/quote]
How do you do box squats without the box?
I knew a few hippy types who would rest their feet on a milk crate in front of the toilet.
It put them in an ass-2-grass squat positon for olympic caliber dump-taking.
It is supposed to be better for you intestines or your chakras or whatever.
[quote]Dirty Tiger wrote:
I knew a few hippy types who would rest their feet on a milk crate in front of the toilet.
It put them in an ass-2-grass squat positon for olympic caliber dump-taking.
It is supposed to be better for you intestines or your chakras or whatever.[/quote]
From what I’ve heard, it’s actually the original way of giving birth and it’s MUCH easier on the woman. But, the men decided to change the birthing procedure by having the women laying down so they could see that was “going on.” Interesting stuff, maybe true maybe not.
-MAtt
I train both ways but find ATG squats the most beneficial in my workouts. I have trained myself to take 700lbs to the bottom and hold it for a count of 5 and then power it up. After that every other leg exercise seems easy. It has also developed a great deal of hip, glute and ham strength. pause squats ATG have given me a lot of strength in the initial pull with my sumo’s. Right now I can lock out close to 700 on sumo’s but becuase of the ATG pauses, I can peel almost 800 off the ground to about knee level.
my two cents
meat
I’m not sure what MAtt is going on about, because whenever I’m carrying a big, heavy box of marbles or nuts and one falls on the floor, I have to squat ATG so I can pick it up with my butt cheeks.
On another note, it can be shown (which means I won’t do it) that stopping the squatting movement half way down (at parallel) creates much higher shear forces than going ATG.
I have a dodgy left knee, and have had no problems or pain squatting ATG since I changed from parallel style. I am not a powerlifter, so I’m never going to squat to parallel ever again; there is no benefit in it for me.
I’ve recently started going ATG on my squats. And i’m talking hamstrings touching my calves. How far apart should your feet be when doing it this way? I’m about shoulder width i’d say and my toes are pointed slightly out. I’m not using heavy weight and really trying to work on my form.
The problem I seem to be having is that when i’m trying to come outta the hole I find that i’m leaning foward alot at the torso. Is this because of a lack of flexibility in my hips or hamstrings or something? I’m not very flexible and i’m trying to work on improving this. Could it be a weak torso that is causing this?
Any help would be appreciated.
Oh and i’m not trying to hijack the original posters thread. Just thought I would ask this question here instead of starting another thread.
[quote]Matgic wrote:
Come on? Can anyone explain how ATG is the most “natural” form of squatting?
-MAtt[/quote]
I’ll take a shot at this:
Unless you’ve got a chair, holding yourself at parallel is a lot harder than just sitting at the bottom of the squat. Hence, many asians rest by squatting down and just sitting at the bottom of the squat. Lots of kids do this, too. I started doing this as soon as I regained the requisite flexibility.
And, finally, here is an objective documentary to settle the question once and for all:
[quote]dre wrote:
I’ve recently started going ATG on my squats. And i’m talking hamstrings touching my calves. How far apart should your feet be when doing it this way? I’m about shoulder width i’d say and my toes are pointed slightly out. I’m not using heavy weight and really trying to work on my form.
The problem I seem to be having is that when i’m trying to come outta the hole I find that i’m leaning foward alot at the torso. Is this because of a lack of flexibility in my hips or hamstrings or something? I’m not very flexible and i’m trying to work on improving this. Could it be a weak torso that is causing this?
Any help would be appreciated.
Oh and i’m not trying to hijack the original posters thread. Just thought I would ask this question here instead of starting another thread. [/quote]
You answered your own qestions. If you can’t get up without bending over then you have a weekness. Probably in the posterior chain. If you can get down then it’s not flexibility. You may also have the bar too high. Keep a tight arch, pull your shoulder blades together, hold big air, and spread the floor on the way up.
I would also experiment with foot placement. I have more power out of the bottom if I have my feet a little wider than shoulder width. Also experiment with foot placement. The more your feet face forward, the more hip is involved. Just keep experimenting to find the position that is comfortable for you. But be sure to spread the floor. If you see your knees turn in on the way up, that will solve the problem. That is probably the #1 error I see most people doing.
Meat
[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
You answered your own qestions. If you can’t get up without bending over then you have a weekness. Probably in the posterior chain. If you can get down then it’s not flexibility. You may also have the bar too high. Keep a tight arch, pull your shoulder blades together, hold big air, and spread the floor on the way up.
I would also experiment with foot placement. I have more power out of the bottom if I have my feet a little wider than shoulder width. Also experiment with foot placement. The more your feet face forward, the more hip is involved. Just keep experimenting to find the position that is comfortable for you. But be sure to spread the floor. If you see your knees turn in on the way up, that will solve the problem. That is probably the #1 error I see most people doing.
Meat [/quote]
Well, if I answered my own questions I guess I don’t need to listen to any of you guys! LOL Just kidding. I know that my posterior chain is weak. That is why i’m trying to do deep squats and i’ve recently started to deadlift again. I’m hoping that by doing these two lifts that will help strenthen all of my weak points.
I guess i’ll stay light on the squats and see if my form improves along with my strength.
Thanks!
[quote]dre wrote:
maraudermeat wrote:
You answered your own qestions. If you can’t get up without bending over then you have a weekness. Probably in the posterior chain. If you can get down then it’s not flexibility. You may also have the bar too high. Keep a tight arch, pull your shoulder blades together, hold big air, and spread the floor on the way up.
I would also experiment with foot placement. I have more power out of the bottom if I have my feet a little wider than shoulder width. Also experiment with foot placement. The more your feet face forward, the more hip is involved. Just keep experimenting to find the position that is comfortable for you. But be sure to spread the floor. If you see your knees turn in on the way up, that will solve the problem. That is probably the #1 error I see most people doing.
Meat
Well, if I answered my own questions I guess I don’t need to listen to any of you guys! LOL Just kidding. I know that my posterior chain is weak. That is why i’m trying to do deep squats and i’ve recently started to deadlift again. I’m hoping that by doing these two lifts that will help strenthen all of my weak points.
I guess i’ll stay light on the squats and see if my form improves along with my strength.
Thanks![/quote]
Try a great exercise called good morning squats. If you are familiar with good mornings then all you do is do a good morning, once your torso is roughly parallel to the floor, squat down into a full squat. pause for a second, return to the top and repeat.
It’s a great exercise that will develop the posterior chain as well as the quads
meat
[quote]dre wrote:
The problem I seem to be having is that when i’m trying to come outta the hole I find that i’m leaning foward alot at the torso. Is this because of a lack of flexibility in my hips or hamstrings or something? I’m not very flexible and i’m trying to work on improving this. Could it be a weak torso that is causing this?
[/quote]
This could also be a sign for a weak core. It happens to me too sometimes, my butt goes up first and I lift with the back, if I don’t concentrate on the movement. Try frontsquats and goodmornings to streghten the core.
[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
Try a great exercise called good morning squats. If you are familiar with good mornings then all you do is do a good morning, once your torso is roughly parallel to the floor, squat down into a full squat. pause for a second, return to the top and repeat.
It’s a great exercise that will develop the posterior chain as well as the quads
meat[/quote]
I was thinking about incorporating good mornings into my back workout. I have never done them before. I will definitely try your good morning squats though.
Again, thanks for the advice!
[quote]eisenaffe wrote:
This could also be a sign for a weak core. It happens to me too sometimes, my butt goes up first and I lift with the back, if I don’t concentrate on the movement. Try frontsquats and goodmornings to streghten the core.
[/quote]
Yeah, that makes sense. My core is pretty weak. I’ll try to concentrate more while doing them and try some front squats too.
Thanks!
[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
I train both ways but find ATG squats the most beneficial in my workouts. I have trained myself to take 700lbs to the bottom and hold it for a count of 5 and then power it up. After that every other leg exercise seems easy. It has also developed a great deal of hip, glute and ham strength. pause squats ATG have given me a lot of strength in the initial pull with my sumo’s. Right now I can lock out close to 700 on sumo’s but becuase of the ATG pauses, I can peel almost 800 off the ground to about knee level.
my two cents
meat[/quote]
Very interesting. Do you squat in powerlifting competitions as well? Do you alter your technique? What can you do parallel versus ATG?
-MAtt
[quote]superdad4 wrote:
hankl wrote:
When this happens in my routine, I’ll move on to parallel squats (box squat without box)
How do you do box squats without the box?[/quote]
It’s just a parallel squat. The idea is if you have enough discipline to do it correctly, you don’t need a box. But realistically it might be better to use a box because you could cheat to disadvantage, by going more down and sitting back less. On the other hand it could be to advantage if you go down more and sit back more than your expectation.
You know you’re doing it correctly because sitting back or sitting out enough will eliminate virtually all pressure on the knees. If you don’t, the pressure on your knees or knee areas can be huge.