Benefits of ATG Squats??

Bigger Stronger Leaner Powerlifting & Strength Sports
61

[quote]Matgic wrote:
maraudermeat wrote:
I train both ways but find ATG squats the most beneficial in my workouts. I have trained myself to take 700lbs to the bottom and hold it for a count of 5 and then power it up. After that every other leg exercise seems easy. It has also developed a great deal of hip, glute and ham strength. pause squats ATG have given me a lot of strength in the initial pull with my sumo’s. Right now I can lock out close to 700 on sumo’s but becuase of the ATG pauses, I can peel almost 800 off the ground to about knee level.
my two cents
meat

Very interesting. Do you squat in powerlifting competitions as well? Do you alter your technique? What can you do parallel versus ATG?

-MAtt[/quote]

I haven’t tried my hand at powerlifting competition yet. Up until about a year and a half ago I trained for bodybuilding. I hope to hit some competitions this coming spring. I can’t decide whether or not to do equipped meets or raw. Honestly I don’t know what my just to parallel squat is. I find it harder to stop at parallel now than to just go to the bottom. I guess the closest thing to it is my box squat set at parallel. i can hit 765.
I vary my squat every two weeks, but always do some form of squat. I have found that it allows my CNS to recover and keeps my gains coming. Below are some of the different squat exercises I’ll do.
ATG holds
Wide powerlifting squat
Wide box squat-parallel
Narrow box squat-below parallel
smith squats- legs together ATG
good morning squats
front squats

variety is the spice of life…
Meat

62

I think the best argument in favor of the deep squat are the o-lifters. They lift huge and extremely flexible and atheletic. When you see them do the real deep squat clean, you can see how masterful a movement it is. And I second the anecdotal evidence that stopping at parallel is harder on the knee.
Sadly, my natural squat was trained out of me through years of catching in little league, on my toes. Re-learning in process…

63

another question, the knees over toes bit. if i go as low as i can possibly go, which is about 8 inches off the ground, my knees start sticking out. if i lean all the way back, keeping my knees straight, i have to put my head way foward, round my back and throw my arms in front of myself to keep from toppling backwards. i can keep my back straight and have decent form if i let my knees go foward. now, as we’re all very aware, knees over toes causes your spleen to fall out, or something else similarly terrible. so, my question is, is it ok for the knees to go foward a little? or am i just too weak and inflexible to do it right?

64

[quote]srb68 wrote:
another question, the knees over toes bit. if i go as low as i can possibly go, which is about 8 inches off the ground, my knees start sticking out. if i lean all the way back, keeping my knees straight, i have to put my head way foward, round my back and throw my arms in front of myself to keep from toppling backwards. i can keep my back straight and have decent form if i let my knees go foward. now, as we’re all very aware, knees over toes causes your spleen to fall out, or something else similarly terrible. so, my question is, is it ok for the knees to go foward a little? or am i just too weak and inflexible to do it right?[/quote]

Nothing wrong with toes sticking slightly out of the knees in the close stance if the squat is performed correctly i.e. butt goes out first and the bb remains in the center of gravity.

65

Just beware of those that say “you must squat this way for all purposes”. It’s just not the case. For most individuals, a mix of squats will work just fine.

66

[quote]hankl wrote:
superdad4 wrote:
hankl wrote:
When this happens in my routine, I’ll move on to parallel squats (box squat without box)

How do you do box squats without the box?

It’s just a parallel squat. The idea is if you have enough discipline to do it correctly, you don’t need a box. But realistically it might be better to use a box because you could cheat to disadvantage, by going more down and sitting back less. On the other hand it could be to advantage if you go down more and sit back more than your expectation.

You know you’re doing it correctly because sitting back or sitting out enough will eliminate virtually all pressure on the knees. If you don’t, the pressure on your knees or knee areas can be huge.[/quote]

But in a parallel squat without the box don’t you lose that moment between the eccentric and concentric phase you achieve when box squatting?

67

[quote]superdad4 wrote:
hankl wrote:
superdad4 wrote:
hankl wrote:
When this happens in my routine, I’ll move on to parallel squats (box squat without box)

How do you do box squats without the box?

It’s just a parallel squat. The idea is if you have enough discipline to do it correctly, you don’t need a box. But realistically it might be better to use a box because you could cheat to disadvantage, by going more down and sitting back less. On the other hand it could be to advantage if you go down more and sit back more than your expectation.

You know you’re doing it correctly because sitting back or sitting out enough will eliminate virtually all pressure on the knees. If you don’t, the pressure on your knees or knee areas can be huge.

But in a parallel squat without the box don’t you lose that moment between the eccentric and concentric phase you achieve when box squatting?[/quote]

Squatting with the box removes much of the stretch reflex at the bottom of the lift. This makes it harder (all things such being equal) than a regular squat and it forces you to become more explosive out of “the hole.”

68

[quote]Magarhe wrote:
Can anyone squat and actually touch their ass on the floor? Is that physically possible? My ass ain’t touching no grass unless that grass ain’t been mowed in awhile. Even with no weight and no shoes, I can only get to about 8 inches off the floor.

[/quote]

actually, I’ve seen it happen and have come close myself when someone was catching a clean in an Olympic Lifting meet (it’s illegal). That’s basicly the same as a front squat. I know you guys are talking about back squat, but I would assume ifi it’s possible in front squat, it’s possible in back squat. You’d be amazed at how flexible some of the top Olympic Lifting guys are in their hips/knees/shoulders.

69

[quote]BigAlSwede wrote:
Magarhe wrote:
Can anyone squat and actually touch their ass on the floor? Is that physically possible? My ass ain’t touching no grass unless that grass ain’t been mowed in awhile. Even with no weight and no shoes, I can only get to about 8 inches off the floor.

actually, I’ve seen it happen and have come close myself when someone was catching a clean in an Olympic Lifting meet (it’s illegal). That’s basicly the same as a front squat. I know you guys are talking about back squat, but I would assume ifi it’s possible in front squat, it’s possible in back squat. You’d be amazed at how flexible some of the top Olympic Lifting guys are in their hips/knees/shoulders.[/quote]

I think it really depends a lot on leg size. I sit all the way down until my hams are on my calves. At that point I’m about 8 inches from the ground. I ain’t getting any lower than that.
meat

70

[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
BigAlSwede wrote:
Magarhe wrote:
Can anyone squat and actually touch their ass on the floor? Is that physically possible? My ass ain’t touching no grass unless that grass ain’t been mowed in awhile. Even with no weight and no shoes, I can only get to about 8 inches off the floor.

actually, I’ve seen it happen and have come close myself when someone was catching a clean in an Olympic Lifting meet (it’s illegal). That’s basicly the same as a front squat. I know you guys are talking about back squat, but I would assume ifi it’s possible in front squat, it’s possible in back squat. You’d be amazed at how flexible some of the top Olympic Lifting guys are in their hips/knees/shoulders.

I think it really depends a lot on leg size. I sit all the way down until my hams are on my calves. At that point I’m about 8 inches from the ground. I ain’t getting any lower than that.
meat[/quote]

oh ya, I understand, I was just pointing out my experiences since this can’t be too common of a sight

71

Certainly, making the criteria of ‘breaking parallel’ reduces the element of subjectivity in squatting. Many guys at the gym mistakenly interpret in increase in strength while decreasing the ROM.

beef

72

[quote]Matgic wrote:
LYR wrote:
Goal=Colossus wrote:
I personally feel far less pressure on my joints doing ATG squats. For me the movement feels more elastic. Myrecovery time is also improved as compared to parallel box squats.
Also, whatever i can do ATG i know i can handle to parallel, though there is some discomfort when attempting heavy singles to parallel after a long period of exclusively ATG squats.

This is all from personal experience and i’m sure much varies form person to person.

Me too bro! I personally never do parallel for that reason. Would you bench only half way down? The motion isn’t natural to stop it half way in any exercise, plus it tears the muscle up big time and overloads the knees and lower back. It’s much smoother to go ATG because of the even distribution of force and the elastic components take the full weight in the bottom position… and you use this to initiate the motion upward.

And the motion isn’t “natural?” I’m going to repost this from the my response in JPC’s thread a little while back.

"Once again, what would be the purpose of squatting ass to grass in real life. I wouldn’t pick up ANYTHING heavy that way. Unless you are picking up marbles or something extremely light, what real life function would it have?

-MAtt"

Other than perhaps taking a dump or squatting rather than sitting, what is the application of squatting this deep? With a heavy weight?

-MAtt[/quote]

Yeah, but I would never do anything resembling the bottom ROM of a bench press in day to day life either. Does that mean I should only do floor presses?

73

[quote]KombatAthlete wrote:
Matgic wrote:
LYR wrote:
Goal=Colossus wrote:
I personally feel far less pressure on my joints doing ATG squats. For me the movement feels more elastic. Myrecovery time is also improved as compared to parallel box squats.
Also, whatever i can do ATG i know i can handle to parallel, though there is some discomfort when attempting heavy singles to parallel after a long period of exclusively ATG squats.

This is all from personal experience and i’m sure much varies form person to person.

Me too bro! I personally never do parallel for that reason. Would you bench only half way down? The motion isn’t natural to stop it half way in any exercise, plus it tears the muscle up big time and overloads the knees and lower back. It’s much smoother to go ATG because of the even distribution of force and the elastic components take the full weight in the bottom position… and you use this to initiate the motion upward.

And the motion isn’t “natural?” I’m going to repost this from the my response in JPC’s thread a little while back.

"Once again, what would be the purpose of squatting ass to grass in real life. I wouldn’t pick up ANYTHING heavy that way. Unless you are picking up marbles or something extremely light, what real life function would it have?

-MAtt"

Other than perhaps taking a dump or squatting rather than sitting, what is the application of squatting this deep? With a heavy weight?

-MAtt

Yeah, but I would never do anything resembling the bottom ROM of a bench press in day to day life either. Does that mean I should only do floor presses?
[/quote]

Oh really? You’d never push someone who was up in your face or punch them with your arm starting at the chest? Would you punch them starting with your fist halfway out from your body? Or push someone up off you when they’ve mounted you punching your face into a pulp?

Regardless of that, I wasn’t saying that ass to grass is unnatural. I was saying that the claim of it being “more natural” than parallel squatting is in my opinion, bullshit.

-MAtt

74

[quote]beefcakemdphd wrote:
Certainly, making the criteria of ‘breaking parallel’ reduces the element of subjectivity in squatting. Many guys at the gym mistakenly interpret in increase in strength while decreasing the ROM.

beef[/quote]

I actually made this comment today in the gym. The answer to how to bring my squat up has been right in front of me: Squat Higher.

75

[quote]Matgic wrote:
KombatAthlete wrote:
Matgic wrote:
LYR wrote:
Goal=Colossus wrote:
I personally feel far less pressure on my joints doing ATG squats. For me the movement feels more elastic. Myrecovery time is also improved as compared to parallel box squats.
Also, whatever i can do ATG i know i can handle to parallel, though there is some discomfort when attempting heavy singles to parallel after a long period of exclusively ATG squats.

This is all from personal experience and i’m sure much varies form person to person.

Me too bro! I personally never do parallel for that reason. Would you bench only half way down? The motion isn’t natural to stop it half way in any exercise, plus it tears the muscle up big time and overloads the knees and lower back. It’s much smoother to go ATG because of the even distribution of force and the elastic components take the full weight in the bottom position… and you use this to initiate the motion upward.

And the motion isn’t “natural?” I’m going to repost this from the my response in JPC’s thread a little while back.

"Once again, what would be the purpose of squatting ass to grass in real life. I wouldn’t pick up ANYTHING heavy that way. Unless you are picking up marbles or something extremely light, what real life function would it have?

-MAtt"

Other than perhaps taking a dump or squatting rather than sitting, what is the application of squatting this deep? With a heavy weight?

-MAtt

Yeah, but I would never do anything resembling the bottom ROM of a bench press in day to day life either. Does that mean I should only do floor presses?

Oh really? You’d never push someone who was up in your face or punch them with your arm starting at the chest? Would you punch them starting with your fist halfway out from your body? Or push someone up off you when they’ve mounted you punching your face into a pulp?

Regardless of that, I wasn’t saying that ass to grass is unnatural. I was saying that the claim of it being “more natural” than parallel squatting is in my opinion, bullshit.

-MAtt
[/quote]

All those points are true, but I think all those situations would be more like a board press, but maybe I’m wrong. I kickboxed for a little over a year and the way I was taught to punch I don’t start with my hand that retracted. Even watch some pro boxing, they don’t punch with their hand starting that far back (I know all this is irrelivant to the original point of your comment though).

76

ATG 20-rep squats all the way. I only stopped going ATG last year because of a back injury. Now that I’m doing them again my deadlift has skyrocketed beyond what I used to be able to do before I was hurt.

77

My overall thigh size is only a little bigger, but the teardrop is noticeably larger. I definitely don’t have huge thighs, but the teardrop is prominent. The pic is relaxed without a pump.

78

I think we can all agree the “more natural” argument for ATG Squats is garbage, what’s natural for me may not be natural to you.
Like I haven’t been able to go under 235lbs for more than a week since I turned 18, I can lift weights and lean out but anything below 235 is not “natural” for me (oh yeah I’m a FAT BOY!)

I do find however I am making steadier progress since I started doin squats ass to ankle, maybe we should all start calling them “ATA Squats” eh?, my knees are starting to feel a whole lot better which is important to me 'cause in my day to day a lot of stress gets put on my knees as a bonus my form is improving, I no longer arch my back and my butt doesn’t stick out.

IMHO ATA squats are the bomb for learning good form, best reason to do ATG squats or at least mix them in every once in awhile.

79

This is old topic I know. Just wonder about pros and cons of atg squats, it prevents me from sleeping, hehe. For me its just this, I like high bar style more (its my opinion, it just seems obvious to me to squat all way down) and I hope I´ll grow my legs some day.:smiley: Also the truth is, that I try to squat as low as possible but found out that in very deep position I round my back. So I try to progress on depth according to article of Mike Robertson here: http://robertsontrainingsystems.com/articles/Olympic+vs.+Powerlifting+Squats/

Next thing, I talked with my friend about this (if its fine to do atg squats). He thinks that there are only few people who can squat atg without rounding back. He also mentioned, Russian powerlifters squeeze maximum potential from quadriceps and rarely can squat when they turn 30, but westsiders can squat even as old guys. Well I can´t say hes wrong because I dont know the background of Russian conditions, but on the other side there is this guy Clarence Bass, who is seventy five and still manage to do impressive high bar squats without any problem with his knees(Squats). That guy is former weighlifter and bodybuilder and seems to know what he says.

And as a lightining from blue sky, I found this article on EFS, today http://www.elitefts.com/documents/full_olympic_lifts2.htm

I just wanted to post some information that might be interesting, not trying to star a flame. Also pity that Alwan Cosgrove has a blog and his old articles are not there- he had nice explanation about full squatting. I´m not a powerlifter (only lifter, power not present yet), I lift for fun, for gaining muscles as well as strength.

80

hmm… this being the powerlifting section I should add that

1 ply ) ATG means that you’re either squatting in the IPF ( in which case the jury will still red-light you)

2 ply ) your squat suit blew out and you have terrible spotters

raw ) you are just trying to get some rebound out of the hole by bouncing off of your calves

save the unnatural argument for whoever thinks it’s natural to load up a bar with several hundred pounds, put it on your back, etc… we’re not meant to squat but it works well for building the legs and the subtotal…