Benefits of ATG Squats??

[quote]john-lennon wrote:
i dont know how you lift heavy stuff off the ground, but i squat all the way down and grab it then squat back up. try lifting boulders and other crap just bending the back and straight leg dead lifting it up and youll end up in lots of back pain if you arent strong enough

Matgic wrote:
LYR wrote:
Goal=Colossus wrote:
I personally feel far less pressure on my joints doing ATG squats. For me the movement feels more elastic. Myrecovery time is also improved as compared to parallel box squats.
Also, whatever i can do ATG i know i can handle to parallel, though there is some discomfort when attempting heavy singles to parallel after a long period of exclusively ATG squats.

This is all from personal experience and i’m sure much varies form person to person.

Me too bro! I personally never do parallel for that reason. Would you bench only half way down? The motion isn’t natural to stop it half way in any exercise, plus it tears the muscle up big time and overloads the knees and lower back. It’s much smoother to go ATG because of the even distribution of force and the elastic components take the full weight in the bottom position… and you use this to initiate the motion upward.

And the motion isn’t “natural?” I’m going to repost this from the my response in JPC’s thread a little while back.

"Once again, what would be the purpose of squatting ass to grass in real life. I wouldn’t pick up ANYTHING heavy that way. Unless you are picking up marbles or something extremely light, what real life function would it have?

-MAtt"

Other than perhaps taking a dump or squatting rather than sitting, what is the application of squatting this deep? With a heavy weight?

-MAtt

[/quote]

I don’t really see that happening quite honestly. Whenever I’ve watched WSM with the Atlas Stones they never need to get into the “ass to the grass” position. Here’s a vid of strongman Brad Cardoza, he doesn’t get anywhere near ATG here.
http://www.pinnaclestrengthandfitness.com/images/420_lb_stone.AVI
Can you find me a video of someone with a technique that is drastically different?

-MAtt

[quote]Magarhe wrote:
Can anyone squat and actually touch their ass on the floor? Is that physically possible? My ass ain’t touching no grass unless that grass ain’t been mowed in awhile. Even with no weight and no shoes, I can only get to about 8 inches off the floor.
[/quote]

I get low enough that my hams are touching my calves. I haven’t measured, but I’d say my rear end is about 2-4 inches off the floor.

Come on? Can anyone explain how ATG is the most “natural” form of squatting?

-MAtt

[quote]Matgic wrote:
Come on? Can anyone explain how ATG is the most “natural” form of squatting?

-MAtt[/quote]

I spent thirteen months in Korea. I saw little old men playing chess on the sidewalk sqatting down, no chairs or table. No wraps or suits, all natural, completely RAW, they were ass to ground 100%. Little old ladies cutting up fish for their stalls on the sidewalk, again squatting down, ass to heels all the way, not parallel. Oh it was sanitary, they always put bits of newspaper down on the sidewalk to cut up the fish or whatever. I figure if people at work or at play assume that position naturally it must be the correct one, right?

a human body was made to squat…it is a natural movement, not try it test yourself. Drop a pencil down on the ground, do pick it up.

oh and read this it explains everything:

" Bodybuilding Training Article from EricsGym.com

Arnold on the Squat
by Arnold Schwarzenegger - 1976

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When I was first learning how to train, I used to do full squats. I did them exclusively for the thighs. I labored under the belief that if I did my full squats faithfully on a firm reps and sets basis, I would get everything I needed in the way of thighs. Over the years my thinking has changed considerably.

Everybody does squats: weightlifters, bodybuilders, football players, track athletes and even ballet dancers. The squat increases the power, speed and spring of the legs. When practiced with heavy breathing, it permanently expands the rib cage. It can help you gain weight. It can help you lose weight. with these multiple benefits, the squat goes on record and the best all-around exercise.

Well, if it could do all these things, how come I even bothered to change my style of squatting? My business is bodybuilding, first of all. It’s nice to have all the capabilities of the athlete, and I accept them as a side effect of doing squats. However, I am more directly concerned with defining and shaping my thighs for the purposes of some things from my standpoint, and other things from yours which I think everybody should know.

The full squat, all the way down and all the way up, has the advantage of working a lot of other body parts besides the thighs; like back, glutes and chest. They certainly developed the lumbar muscles of my lower back, That was a terrific advantage. The disadvantage was that 50 percent of the effort worked my thighs, and at least 30 percent worked my glutes. I found that the first third of the movement of coming up from a full squat worked my glutes. The final two-thirds of the movement worked the entire thigh, but no particular part. So, what happened was my rear got big, and my thighs got bulky and shapeless. Nether of these two effects served my purpose for bodybuilding.

There are several ways to do squats. The most conventional of these remains the regular squat with the barbell resting on the shoulders behind the neck and a movement consisting of a full deep knee bend with return for the fully erect position. There is the half squat - half way down and all the way up – that may also be done astride a bench of protection against going too deep. Another is the tension squat where you don’t lock out your knees at the top. You drop three-quarters of the way down and return to a position three-quarters of the way up. The movement is performed through the middle half of the entire range of movement. There is the jump squat which is excellent for weightlifters and other athletes interested in getting extra spring and starting power. Front squats, where the weight is held across the chest, is done with a straight bar.

The sissy squat involves only the front quadriceps and is done with the hips held forward, dipping low using knee flexion only. The hack squat is done with the barbell held behind the legs, or on the specially designed hack machine. The one-legged squat rounds out the basic list of the most familiar forms of the squat.

For me, the only advantage of the full squat was that it built my back along with my thighs. As a result I was able to deadlift 700 pounds. If you want power, the full squat is the way to get it. If it’s shape and size you want, then there are several different and better ways, such as I described.

Position of the feet exerts different pressures and enables you to concentrate on different areas of the thighs. For instance, when you put your feet close together and parallel, all the effort of the squat goes into the quadriceps and gives the thigh a front sweep look. It should be done with a block under the heels for better balance. A friend of mine, Karl Schranz, world champion skier to many years, worked his legs that way using as much as 400 pounds. Skiers everywhere are now doing this exercise.

With the feet a normal width apart, say, about 18 inches, every area of the thigh, outside middle and inside, is worked in the regular squat movement. With the feet farther apart, toes pointed out, the effect of the squat is felt on the inside of the thigh. The heels may also be moved closer together with the toes still pointed out, and the inside thigh continues to be effected. The position of the feet largely determines which part of the thigh will work.

I have reverted to using the vertical sliding Smith machine for my squats. This machine enables me to concentrate on my legs. I can place my feet forward of the vertical line of my body, and I can’t fall back, like I would using a barbell. Thus, with my back straight, feet about 10 inches apart, and my knees straight ahead. I do tension squats, going three-quarters of the way down and coming up to a position a quarter of the way form the top.

The movement gives my thighs an incredible burn and gets the more lateral muscles. I always do this one before a contest. I burn out as many reps as I can, never completing a movement If you lock out, you give your muscles a chance to rest, and that 's not what you want. you have to torture the muscle with unusual training so that it will respond.

I used to use a lot of weight on the squat. Not anymore. I find now that concentration lends its own form of resistance. By thinking I can direct the effort, I can make every movement count, not only the sets. By doing the sliding squat on the sliding Smith machine, I am able to concentrate using less weight. I direct my attention to what the thighs are doing. I literally think the definition into them. The pleasure of my thought overrides the pain. The positive aspects of cuts and veins and shape spur me on, and the whole thing become a labor of love.

I would always have a beginner start with the parallel squat, five sets, starting with 20 reps and decreasing the number on subsequent sets, finishing with six reps. For the beginner I would increase the amount of weight only as I perceived his increased muscle size. I wouldn’t try to rush his strength. I would experiment with him, vary his squatting post ion, try to find what was best for him. People have different structures, therefore they must utilize the “instinctive” training technique. A great bodybuilder like Frank Zane squats narrow while another great one like Ken Waller squats much wider, and both of them have sensational thighs. Everybody beginner, intermediate and advanced., alike, should all experiment with various foot positions to determine what favors them.

I usually warm up with 135 pounds, 30 reps, I drop to 20 reps on my second set, then down to 15 and 10 for the others. As I go down in reps, I go up in weight, peaking at about 400 pounds for eight reps.

I prefer to start out with leg extensions. I get more definition when they precede squats. By the time I get to the squat my legs feel numb, like I couldn’t use another pound on anything. But after my first couple of squat sets the numbness goes away. The lingering transition makes my squats doubly effective in getting definition.

I wear a lifting belt for squats, but not tight. For guys who are afraid of getting sore, or who can’t walk or exercise for a couple of days following leg work, I’d suggest they use the sauna or steam room and whirl pool after their workout. I let the heat penetrate me, and that usually relaxes me and dissipates any soreness.

I personally like the pain form training because it indicates I’ve worked hard enough for things to grow. It’s a great satisfaction.

Some bodybuilders like to squat without a mirror in front of them. I like the mirror. It helps me keep in the groove. In order to see myself in it I have to keep my head up. That forces me to come up with my back more vertical which shifts the weight all to my legs. It allows me to see if I am twisting to the side, which is a bad habit to get into for the questionable pressures it puts on the spine.

You can guess by now that I have gotten away from using monstrous poundages on squats of any kind. My needs have forced me to find ways or doing leg work that develop cuts and definition along with size. I am still experimenting. Just remember, you have to apply the technique of quality training to your legs the same as the rest of your body. That means more sustained tension, shorter rests between sets, no rest between repetitions and, finally, total concentration. Do that, and you’ll end up with great legs."

bodybuilding.home.insightbb.com/trainingarticles/arnoldsquat/index.htm

[quote]Vwaju92 wrote:
Matgic wrote:
Come on? Can anyone explain how ATG is the most “natural” form of squatting?

-MAtt

I spent thirteen months in Korea. I saw little old men playing chess on the sidewalk sqatting down, no chairs or table. No wraps or suits, all natural, completely RAW, they were ass to ground 100%. Little old ladies cutting up fish for their stalls on the sidewalk, again squatting down, ass to heels all the way, not parallel. Oh it was sanitary, they always put bits of newspaper down on the sidewalk to cut up the fish or whatever. I figure if people at work or at play assume that position naturally it must be the correct one, right?[/quote]

So it’s natural for poor people?

also…this might be alittle sick but when i was little in bosnia, i remember playing outside miles away from my house. Anyway some days i would have alot of chocolate to eat and at times i would get a rumble in my stomach. I would squat ASS TO HEALS to were the grass would almost be tickling my butt…anway enough detail, i would then take a hughe dump in the midle of a medow. There just does to show you some natural movements.

[quote]mrl179 wrote:
also…this might be alittle sick but when i was little in bosnia, i remember playing outside miles away from my house. Anyway some days i would have alot of chocolate to eat and at times i would get a rumble in my stomach. I would squat ASS TO HEALS to were the grass would almost be tickling my butt…anway enough detail, i would then take a hughe dump in the midle of a medow. There just does to show you some natural movements.[/quote]

I believe you are misunderstanding what I’m saying. I’m not saying it’s unnatural to squat ass to grass. I do it frequently, when I’m in the gym and and writing in my workout journal, resting when there are no seats and the floor is disgusting, etc.

I’m talking about squatting ass to grass bearing SIGNIFICANT LOAD (relatively of course). When have you ever done this in real life?

If you have to move something and you can squat under it easily, you will. If it’s too low you’ll do a deadlift type movement with it. You don’t squat ass to heels to move a couch.

And, I’m not against ATG squats, I do them a bit in my training. But the argument of it being more “natural” just seems like a heap of bullshit to me. I’ve been waiting for my argument to be refuted, but if it’s not, maybe we should chalk up ATG squatting as “more natural” under the myth section.

-MAtt

Well, it is necessary to cause microtrauma (small tears in a muscle) in a muscle for it to regrow larger.

No, I don’t think so. Muscles grow because the myofibrils thicken and increase in response to high-tension. Micro tears are bad and should be avoided.

[quote]pparris wrote:
Well, it is necessary to cause microtrauma (small tears in a muscle) in a muscle for it to regrow larger.

No, I don’t think so. Muscles grow because the myofibrils thicken and increase in response to high-tension. Micro tears are bad and should be avoided.[/quote]

But the muscle still does break down before it rebuilds bigger. No?

[quote]Matgic wrote:

…I’m talking about squatting ass to grass bearing SIGNIFICANT LOAD (relatively of course). When have you ever done this in real life?

If you have to move something and you can squat under it easily, you will. If it’s too low you’ll do a deadlift type movement with it. You don’t squat ass to heels to move a couch.

And, I’m not against ATG squats, I do them a bit in my training. But the argument of it being more “natural” just seems like a heap of bullshit to me. I’ve been waiting for my argument to be refuted, but if it’s not, maybe we should chalk up ATG squatting as “more natural” under the myth section.

-MAtt [/quote]

i often pick up 3 or 4 cases of wine off the floor. depending on how they’re packaged a case weighs 35-60 lbs., an average 4 stack will be 4 1/2 ft. high.

not huge weight but definitely significant and not that easy too get off the floor with your fingertips, maintain balance, and carry without breaking something. especially when you figure the stack is over your head, which is turned sideways so you have to walk sideways to see where you’re going. they got the name for that movie from me btw.

i don’t know if it’s “natural” or not but pistols and squatting atg have been helpful for me there i’m sure.

[quote]swivel wrote:
Matgic wrote:

…I’m talking about squatting ass to grass bearing SIGNIFICANT LOAD (relatively of course). When have you ever done this in real life?

If you have to move something and you can squat under it easily, you will. If it’s too low you’ll do a deadlift type movement with it. You don’t squat ass to heels to move a couch.

And, I’m not against ATG squats, I do them a bit in my training. But the argument of it being more “natural” just seems like a heap of bullshit to me. I’ve been waiting for my argument to be refuted, but if it’s not, maybe we should chalk up ATG squatting as “more natural” under the myth section.

-MAtt

i often pick up 3 or 4 cases of wine off the floor. depending on how they’re packaged a case weighs 35-60 lbs., an average 4 stack will be 4 1/2 ft. high.

not huge weight but definitely significant and not that easy too get off the floor with your fingertips, maintain balance, and carry without breaking something. especially when you figure the stack is over your head, which is turned sideways so you have to walk sideways to see where you’re going. they got the name for that movie from me btw.

i don’t know if it’s “natural” or not but pistols and squatting atg have been helpful for me there i’m sure.[/quote]

Fair enough. Although, I still do not see circumstances requring ATG squatting with significant loads appearing more frequently than when more “efficient” ways of picking up objects are used.

Lifting things without a car, a jack or similar tools… :wink:

[quote]pparris wrote:
Micro tears are bad and should be avoided.[/quote]

THANKYOU! Finally someone else. I was feeling pretty lonely on my little island.

I used to argue that parallel is better. You can use a greater load which I think is more stimulating and I think it’s safer for the knees, hips and low back.

I’ve come to the conclusion that this issue is like the abortion debate, or the Iraq war or womens rights. People are going to believe what they are going to believe and no one is going to change their mind.

Let’s just respect the way others perform the movement. Unless, of course, they are rounding their back.

[quote]kellyc wrote:
I used to argue that parallel is better. You can use a greater load which I think is more stimulating and I think it’s safer for the knees, hips and low back.

I’ve come to the conclusion that this issue is like the abortion debate, or the Iraq war or womens rights. People are going to believe what they are going to believe and no one is going to change their mind.

Let’s just respect the way others perform the movement. Unless, of course, they are rounding their back.[/quote]

For me I see two advantages:

  1. Really hard to cheat, lot’s of people who say they go to parallel go higher as the weights go up.
  2. Less knee stress. This is pure opinion, but I think mid squat reversal places more torsional stress on the structure of the knee joint. For me, it feels better if I go all the way down, “in the groove” so to speak.

did u read that little article i posted…basically it is the most natural movement…you go down and up, when u do this you are creating more power.

[quote]kellyc wrote:
I used to argue that parallel is better. You can use a greater load which I think is more stimulating and I think it’s safer for the knees, hips and low back.

I’ve come to the conclusion that this issue is like the abortion debate, or the Iraq war or womens rights. People are going to believe what they are going to believe and no one is going to change their mind.

Let’s just respect the way others perform the movement. Unless, of course, they are rounding their back.[/quote]

I agree with you…there are pros and cons to both ways of squatting. But saying that squatting to the ground with weights is more natural is what I’m arguing.

[quote]blue9steel wrote:
kellyc wrote:
I used to argue that parallel is better. You can use a greater load which I think is more stimulating and I think it’s safer for the knees, hips and low back.

I’ve come to the conclusion that this issue is like the abortion debate, or the Iraq war or womens rights. People are going to believe what they are going to believe and no one is going to change their mind.

Let’s just respect the way others perform the movement. Unless, of course, they are rounding their back.

For me I see two advantages:

  1. Really hard to cheat, lot’s of people who say they go to parallel go higher as the weights go up.
  2. Less knee stress. This is pure opinion, but I think mid squat reversal places more torsional stress on the structure of the knee joint. For me, it feels better if I go all the way down, “in the groove” so to speak.[/quote]

1)Well, it depends on how you define cheating. If you think using momentum is cheating, then I see people cheat a lot in ATG squatting. They almost entirely use the action of stretch reflex to bounce “out of the hole.” Also, don’t cheat. I know it sounds simple but have someone watch your depth if your worried. That, or do box squats onto a height that leaves you at parallel. No cheating there.

2)I appreciate that you state that this is your opinion. The given is that you will be using less weight on your ATG versus parallel squat. So that would equate to less load placed on the entire body including the joints.

But, in doing box squats, the shins and knees barely go past perpendicular to the floor if you are sitting back enough. This heavily loads the muscles used in the squat with minimal stress on the knees.

But honestly, I’ve done more ATG free weight squatting recently than I have parallel squatting without a box. I agree that it feels more in control doing ATG squats than parallel squats with no box. But, I think a great deal of this is due to the fact that the load is less, the bounce out of the hole, and the fact that people (from what I’ve noticed) tend to be more likely to go closer to their 1RM while doing parallel squats rather than ATG squats.

-MAtt

[quote]mrl179 wrote:
did u read that little article i posted…basically it is the most natural movement…you go down and up, when u do this you are creating more power. [/quote]

Yes, I read most of the article. But I must admit that I was weary when I saw that Arnold wrote it. Noone denies he had a great physique, but he also had amazing genetics and was not known for his squatting ability. He even says that he ended up switching to smith machine squats…this says something.

You are also assuming that I am talking about what is best for a bodybuilder. But, it depends on the goals on the individual. Super wide stance box squats will not develop the quads as fully as Ass to Grass Medium stance squats. But this is because they are a different movement. The box squat variation will develop the glutes and hamstrings more effectively. In fact, the whole body as well because of the higher loads that one would be using on the box squat versus ATG.

I think you would do well to learn that Arnold is no authority on squatting. I’m not trying to be patronizing or an asshole, but you’ll find that a lot of Arnold’s advice does not have much usefullness to the average trainee.

I’d really like it with John Paul Cat or another author would reply with their thoughts, although this is a long shot I’m sure.

-MAtt