[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
Matt Furey is a huge asshole who is only interested in selling his material on bodyweight training, which I hear is not worth the price. I don’t care about his achievements in the martial arts - the man has zero credibility with me. [/quote]
I totally agree.
ZEB wrote:
You guys really think that the Bench Press has better carry over than say the Clean and Press?
If so I would have to vehemently disagree!
Well since im not an olympic power lifter this is a mute point. If you want to clean and press go right ahead. However, i dont have a need to with seated military presses, they put too much stress on the lower back!
I think you guys need to stop blaming the bench press for your shoulder injuries. If you lift heavy, consistently, and push things a little in the gym you’ll get hurt every so often. Aches and pains will occur. Whether these are from the lifting or problems EXPOSED by lifting are besides the point. Lots of people have pre-existing conditions from sports as children and teenagers which pre-dispose them to injury when lifting heavy ass weights. The bench press is the lift you’re most often injured in because you train it the hardest. No matter who you are a big bench is cool in the gym. So you see guys doing more weight than they should, more volume than they should, and less than optimal form. Not to mention the bench press is the most popular lift in existance.
I would have to agree with narked on the idea that most bench related injuries are from overuse and lack of a balanced training plan. How often do you see the guy in the gym benching three and four times a week, thinking that if twice a week is good then three times must be %150 better. These are the same guys who wear baggy sweats year round to hide their scrawny legs and curl in the damn squat rack. Not to mention the point made about technique. Like any other (included the clean & press that I’ve see butchered as often as the bench) if done improperly an exercise will eventually hurt you.
There are some movements that are more demanding of certain joints. If you have a certain type of build, the Bench Press is one of them. Proceed at your own risk!
these debates get pretty ridiculous! i love how everyone qualifies an exercise as, “well, if you could ONLY do ONE…” blah blah blah… that is the beauty of training. YOU DON’T HAVE TO DO ONLY ONE! there is no one magic exercise and i am thoroughly convinced the best exercises are chosen on needs analysis assessments, and weaknesses of the trainee/individual. keep the debate going it is comical! BTW - ANY exercise can be bad if it is done incorrectly, and i am not convinced the bench is harmful on shoulders considering the # of PL’ers who lift a lot of weight injury free. now, all the bodybuilders blowing out pecs and having joint problems with their mickey mouse loads…hmmmm, maybe it is not the exercise but rather how it is performed?
The bench press, when done correctly is a usefull exercise. For those that say it has no carry over to football and that incline would be better, please learn how to block properly.Ask Tom Myslinski and he will tell you that the flat bench is more correct than an incline. I would not do very many pressing movements in season with sports such as football and baseball just because the shoulders take a beating anyway. I have also found that most people who preach of the dangers of bench pressing, still have their athletes do military presses or other over head movements. If you will just do some research, you will find that overhead pressing movements will do nothing but ruin your shoulders.
Barbender, right f’ing on brother!
Scott613 reread the post I actually name Pavel (I call him the evil Russian) as a reference.
You need to do some more studying/reading. The chin-up is by far the best test for upper body strength, it is used by most strength coaches to gage the level of upper body strength especially in football players, CT wrote about it in his newsletter, CP also wrote about it in one of his early Q&A on this very mag. Also read Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning to understand why it is used. It is obtuse to make uneducated comments, at least know what your writing about.
Numba56 The pull/chin up recruits more muscle fibers then any other upper body exercises at least according to the most prominent researcher in his field Will Kraemer.
maybe it does, my point you can load up a bench press more, thus more neural effect.
ZEB, no ones saying that, all that I am saying is it is a good neural stimulus that will not fatigue specific muscles/fibre types important to athletic events, prior to them. CF athletes used it as a primer to the nervous system as it was the upper body exercise that could be loaded the highest, thus the highest neural stimulus, without fatiguing of specific fibres.
Who says you can load up a bench press more? add more weights to a weighted belt and pullup away.
BOSS - I have read plaenty, please find me ANY literature that shows a chin up will improve upperbody pushing strength better than a bench press. That is as ridiculous as saying a bench press will improve upper body pulling strength better than a pullup. I am not discrediting pullups, but gimme a break. Tell a prospective NFL player to prepare for his bench press combine test by using pullups and see how happy he is with you when you lose him the potential for millions of dollars and a decent spot in the draft. I know Poliquin states the pullup is the KING of upper body exercises, blah blah blah… everyone is entitled to their opinion. I however choose to be balanced, and don’t buy this crap about all you need is the pull up and deadlift, bench press isn’t functional, and all the other nonsense. Needs analysis determines what modality of training the trainee/athlete needs. AND if it is a bench press, then by god I will prescribe it. I choose to have every exercise under the sun in my arsenal and implement it in a way to improve the trainee as well as other lifts. THis is also the core of the conjugate system that is dominating sports conditioning. Obtuse? hysterical! I love it! Maybe you should spend more time in the gym and less time reading about everyone else’s ideasand quoting them verbatim. Come to think of it, I think Poliquin has taken the bench press out of all his programs and ONLY has his athletes do pullups… QUICK everyone drop the bench press now! CP did it!
because the triceps are much much stronger than lats, and have a much greater potential to be loaded. As well grip is very sensitive and very heavy chins in combination with a pulling movement from the ground could overuse the grip. You are entitled to do what you want, I am just making my argument. For ex look at the guys at westside. They work on their lats and back constantly, yet I’ll bet they could not do a pull-up equal to a bench press pr. I ask you as well, what do you bench versus what do you do for a loaded pull up?
There is no denying that the Bench Press can build strength and has some carry over effect.
My only point is this: if you are not “built” properly for that particular exercise then you stand a chance of injury.
Other movements do not carry this caveat!
As far as the Pull-up working most of the upper body muscles, it does indeed. I have had new trainees complain of soreness in the abs, chest, traps and even the triceps, from performing Pull-ups! This in addition to biceps, and lats.
That is not to say it is superior to the any pushing movement to develop pushing strength. However, it is a safe movement for all, regardless of your body type. I cannot say that about the Bench Press.
I disagree, I think any exercise done correctly can be safe, and dangerous when not performed correctly. I think if more people benched like PL’ers, there would be a lot less shoulder problems than there are now.
What kills me about topics like this is that comparing the bench and chin up are like comparing apples and oranges. Neither is better than the other. There are situations where one would be more applicable in a training program certainly. The root of training is performance enhancement (unless you an abercrombie or CK model, then you have your own reasons). Performance enhancement is achieved by determining the needs of a trainee. And I hate to say it, but a chin up isn’t a one-stop shop, cure-all exercise.
If you will just do some research, you will find that overhead pressing movements will do nothing but ruin your shoulders.
I’ve done plenty of research, and I’ve found just the opposite. Back when the overhead press was considered the true measure of a man, lifting-related shoulder injuries were pretty much unheard-of. Only pitchers injured their rotator cuffs at the time.
I do believe that most bench-related shoulder injuries are really the result of neglecting the external rotators, but it can’t be denied that the rate of shoulder injuries in lifters increased exponentially with the advent of the bench press.
For comments about overhead pressing being less harmful to the shoulder, here is an excellent quote from Coach X off of the elite fitness Q&A. Keep in mind this guy has worked in a hospital setting before and has recently spent time in a cadeavar lab. I think this is an excellent post.
Coach X when asked why overhead pressing is dangerous:
“Dude, I have answered this question already in a previous post. If the individuals who taught you that pressing overhead was great then ask them thelast time they were in a cadavear lab. I understand that overhead pressing has the highest activation of all the cuff muscles but it is also the greatest irritant and has the highest stressful forces to the shoulder joint itself. Now you should know that once you change structure, you change function. When any athlete presses overhead you take a risk and you must ask yourself is the risk worth the benefit(you should do that with any exercise you choose). ORTHOPEDICALLY speaking as the bar travels overhead you jam the head of the humerus up into the acromin, which creates impingement(as does any movement that causes the bicep to move closer to the head. Let me define shoulder impingement for all you thickheaded people out there(probably most of you are olympic based in your training knowledge and we are not creating elite weight lifters). Impingment involves a mechanical compression of the supraspinatus tendon, subacromial bursa, and the long head of the biceps tendon, all which are located under the coracoacromial arch. This compression is due to a decrease in space under said arch. Repetitive compression leads to irritation and inflammation of these structures. Shoulder impingement is also closely related to instability. Athletes who are involved in overhead ativities often exhibit hypermobility and capsular laxity. Prolonged inflammation causes decreasesd muscular efficiency and can also lend itself to one other major problem, a ruptured supraspinatus or biceps tendon. In short, shoulder impingement compresses all the soft tissue structures under the coracoacromial arch during HUMERAL ELEVATION! It also takes you out of the scapular plain and creates structural imbalances. Now ask the individuals who taught you when was the last time they were in a cadaver lab. As a strength coach you better have a working knowledge of orthopedics and rehab. I am now done trying to help people make their programs orthopedically sound, so go ahead and be lod-school, which is an excuse for being DUMB!”
LEARN!,
Coach X
This guy makes more sense to me than most of the damn coaches out there because he seems honestly interested in the well being of his athletes and not getting his name in everything under the sun.
-Scott
Chris you are exactly correct!
Overhead pressing is a “natural movement.” This means that the body was designed to move in this manner. The old timers did not have the shoulder problems
(by it is rare that you will get anyone from any power lifting gym to actully admit that the Bench Press harms your shoulders)
To all of those 20 something Bench Pressing experts, come see me in 10 to 20 years and tell me how your shoulders feel!
If you are not the proper body type, you are going to have problems with your shoulders from years of Benching. Not a matter of “if” just a matter of “when.”
Sorry guys…
Numba,
Old timers did pushups and lying floor presses. I guarantee with as into training as they were if they had a bench they would have used it. They were about being strong and you can handle a hell of a lot more on a bench press than a bent press, or military press. They would have wanted to lift the most weight. BTW - impingment happens more-so when the arm is brought closer to the ear, I am no expert but it seems this happens more in overhead pressing than bench pressing. But the fact of the matter is that over head pressers will be over head pressers and bench pressers will be strong…