Being Bottom Heavy

Training
61

[quote]Zeppelin0731 wrote:

[quote]caveman101 wrote:
what was your original question again? lol[/quote]

Well, I was asking about wether or not SS made imbalances, then I was asking about a program I designed haha.[/quote]

Your program looked pretty bad if I remember. Try again.

Back to the stuff that’s ACTUALLY important SCOFF:

So I’m going to get the book (Starting Strength) and read through it, and afterward I may decide whether or not to adopt certain ideas from it, and I may even try the program for a brief time.

We’ll see. I was originally committed to doing it, but after witnessing the sheer lack of results and a bunch of really retarded people over on the other forum, it’s actually made me like the program (and it’s supporters) LESS than I did before. Currently I have a lot on my plate and I’m not willing to give up my program that has been working beautifully for me, soooooooo in the off chance (very likely) that those gains never actually come to a screeching halt, it’s possible I will never get around to doing starving strength.

62

[quote]Zeppelin0731 wrote:
Day 1: Chest and Triceps
bench press, dumbell incline press, dips, pushdowns
Day 2: Back and Biceps
parallel grip pullup, bent over rows, trap raise, straight bar curls, deadlift
Day 3: Legs, shoulders, and traps
back squat, calf raise , military press, face pull, lateral raise, haney shrug

Could someone help me organize this into a decent program?

I will probably be using the just fucking eat approach to food, as I dont control what is available to eat, am not worried about getting fat, because that will come off later. Main concerns are even mass gain and strength.

To get a good base, I would like to weigh somewhere around 185, bench around 280, deadlift/squat around 370 before I set higher goals. How long should this take if I do everything right starting from a 170 bodyweight benching 210 squatting 275? (yeah I know shitty hs football numbers at best)[/quote]

63

Talking about pictures, Im_New_Feed_Me -strikes me everytime, as i can’t see him as a Bodybuilder, Powerlifter or anything else than a egosentric skinnydude.

“Put your money where your mouth is” is so far from you. I feel sad for your “clients”.

64

[quote]Aaargh wrote:
Talking about pictures, Im_New_Feed_Me -strikes me everytime, as i can’t see him as a Bodybuilder, Powerlifter or anything else than a egosentric skinnydude.

“Put your money where your mouth is” is so far from you. I feel sad for your “clients”.[/quote]

Are you hitting on me?

65

[quote]Zeppelin0731 wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin0731 wrote:
Day 1: Chest and Triceps
bench press, dumbell incline press, dips, pushdowns
Day 2: Back and Biceps
parallel grip pullup, bent over rows, trap raise, straight bar curls, deadlift
Day 3: Legs, shoulders, and traps
back squat, calf raise , military press, face pull, lateral raise, haney shrug

Could someone help me organize this into a decent program?

I will probably be using the just fucking eat approach to food, as I dont control what is available to eat, am not worried about getting fat, because that will come off later. Main concerns are even mass gain and strength.

To get a good base, I would like to weigh somewhere around 185, bench around 280, deadlift/squat around 370 before I set higher goals. How long should this take if I do everything right starting from a 170 bodyweight benching 210 squatting 275? (yeah I know shitty hs football numbers at best)[/quote]
[/quote]

Day 1 - Looks a little weak. The way you do dips will make a huge difference as far as what muscles are going to be growing from them, and your only other exercise for triceps is pushdowns? Cable pushdowns are great, but if you’re only going to have 1 direct movement for the triceps most people would rather do a skullcrusher/french press/close-grip bench. I would also suggest adding in a stretching exercise for the chest like dumbbell flies.

Day 2 - Parallel grip pullups are kind of lame for bodybuilding. I know people like to do them, because they’re easier and comfortable, but I still recommend regular pullups or chinups instead. And doing deadlifts last? Probably a bad idea, especially after bent rows and barbell curls. Why not do them first if you want to do them, and then add a second bicep exercise at the end?
Day 3 - First of all, if you want to combine shoulders and legs, at least do shoulders first in the workout. Otherwise your delt workout will suck major balls. Secondly, only doing squats for your thigh development is a bad idea… you should at least have some leg curls in there, even though you did deadlifts yesterday (which I also think is a bad idea). Another bad idea? Training shoulders the day before you go train chest again.

I’m not saying this routine couldn’t possibly work for you, but try to understand that traditional splits became traditional for good reason…

Legs/Push/Pull
Chest&Back/Shoulders&Arms/Legs
Legs/Chest&Triceps/Back&Biceps/Shoulders

Those are the old standbys. They offer decent recovery, decent muscle pairings, with minimal overlap.

Also, no one can tell you how long it will take to reach those numbers or even if those numbers/bodyweight are reasonable for you. You just have to work hard and progress as fast as you can. What you can do is set achievable mini-goals along the way, and it’s something I think everybody here would recommend.

66

[quote]mr popular wrote:
Take-home point from this thread?

Powerlifting does not a bodybuilder make.

The shitty thing about this example is you take a small subset of a very gifted percentage of the lifting population to try to prove that getting stronger doesn’t make you bigger. Tom Martin is an absolute freak and pulled over 700 as 181 [Edit: it was closer to 800 and a world record] and he is close to or over 6’. Blenderate posts here as ‘Skizacks’ or something like that and is a high level raw powerlifter, but I think he started off bodybuilding, and he is not small. He may not have a bodybuilder physique but he trains for specifically powerlifting now.

The truth of the matter is that if you took all the people in the gym you see not making any progress, make them squat 3x a week, press, bench, deadlift, i.e. do starting strength with the addition of chins, curls, and some calf work, they will make significantly more progress in adding/strength and size in a shorter amount of time. These people don’t have youtube video up but they make up the majority of people in commercial gyms.

Assuming they do Starting Strength and eat, squatting 315x5x3, benching 225x5x3, deadlifting well over 400 is possible for the majority average height inviduals, they will be better primed to move into bodybuilding, powerlifting, olympic lifting, or any weight related activity they please.

And to straighten things out, Starting Strength is a novice program. If Mr. Popular came back to do the program he wouldn’t do half as well on it as somebody completely new to the movements. The adaption period has been missed, or more likely taken place using another form of programming.

67

[quote]Elite0423 wrote:
I think this argument all stems from a huge misunderstanding of both protocols. Mark Rippetoe is not anti isolation exercises, machine movements, or split routines. In fact, this is right out of his book “Those interested primarily in hypertrophy will use more isolation exercises at higher reps along with the basic strength based program.” PPFS2, Mark Rippetoe.

Starting Strength includes chin-ups, and pull-ups. Mark Rippetoe also mentions in his book that he doesn’t recommend direct arm work for rank novices because he knows they’ll do it anyway and that is fine. In fact, Mark Rippetoe suggests that after one builds a decent level of strength. Mid 2’s bench press, mid 3’s squat. mid 4’s deadlift that the trainee starts catering his lifting to the sport he or she wishes to participate in. Mark Rippetoes’ books all suggest standard bodybuilding splits with standard bodybuilding rep schemes and even machine (gasp) exercises for physique enhancing oriented trainees. The problem lies when a trainee takes either approach to an extreme level. There is no reason your 130 pound buddy who just started lifting needs to worry about dumbbell laterals when he cant perform basic functions of the human body correctly with a decent weight. Mark Rippetoe would not argue against bodybuilding methods for trainees with an intermediate strength level that are aspiring bodybuilders. He would argue that rank novices should not specify there training until they reach a decent amount of strength to start there individual endeavor whether this be bodybuilding oriented, olympic lifting oriented, etc. Hence, “starting strength.” I highly recommend any of his books. [/quote]

68

OP ,do SS for 4-5 months then do a split. SS is for novices, hence the title.

69

[quote]mr popular wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin0731 wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin0731 wrote:
Day 1: Chest and Triceps
bench press, dumbell incline press, dips, pushdowns
Day 2: Back and Biceps
parallel grip pullup, bent over rows, trap raise, straight bar curls, deadlift
Day 3: Legs, shoulders, and traps
back squat, calf raise , military press, face pull, lateral raise, haney shrug

Could someone help me organize this into a decent program?

I will probably be using the just fucking eat approach to food, as I dont control what is available to eat, am not worried about getting fat, because that will come off later. Main concerns are even mass gain and strength.

To get a good base, I would like to weigh somewhere around 185, bench around 280, deadlift/squat around 370 before I set higher goals. How long should this take if I do everything right starting from a 170 bodyweight benching 210 squatting 275? (yeah I know shitty hs football numbers at best)[/quote]
[/quote]

Day 1 - Looks a little weak. The way you do dips will make a huge difference as far as what muscles are going to be growing from them, and your only other exercise for triceps is pushdowns? Cable pushdowns are great, but if you’re only going to have 1 direct movement for the triceps most people would rather do a skullcrusher/french press/close-grip bench. I would also suggest adding in a stretching exercise for the chest like dumbbell flies.

Day 2 - Parallel grip pullups are kind of lame for bodybuilding. I know people like to do them, because they’re easier and comfortable, but I still recommend regular pullups or chinups instead. And doing deadlifts last? Probably a bad idea, especially after bent rows and barbell curls. Why not do them first if you want to do them, and then add a second bicep exercise at the end?
Day 3 - First of all, if you want to combine shoulders and legs, at least do shoulders first in the workout. Otherwise your delt workout will suck major balls. Secondly, only doing squats for your thigh development is a bad idea… you should at least have some leg curls in there, even though you did deadlifts yesterday (which I also think is a bad idea). Another bad idea? Training shoulders the day before you go train chest again.

I’m not saying this routine couldn’t possibly work for you, but try to understand that traditional splits became traditional for good reason…

Legs/Push/Pull
Chest&Back/Shoulders&Arms/Legs
Legs/Chest&Triceps/Back&Biceps/Shoulders

Those are the old standbys. They offer decent recovery, decent muscle pairings, with minimal overlap.

Also, no one can tell you how long it will take to reach those numbers or even if those numbers/bodyweight are reasonable for you. You just have to work hard and progress as fast as you can. What you can do is set achievable mini-goals along the way, and it’s something I think everybody here would recommend.[/quote]

What is the specific benefit of the stretching exercise? Sounds like there is something interesting to be learned/discussed there.

70

[quote]Zeppelin0731 wrote:

What is the specific benefit of the stretching exercise? Sounds like there is something interesting to be learned/discussed there.[/quote]

My personal opinion is this: How do you expect a muscle to grow completely if it isn’t stimulated through it’s entire range of motion? People say that exercise form or selection doesn’t have any impact on muscular shape or development, but if that were true no one would ever do more than the top half of the barbell curl for their biceps… yet we know that would work like shit.

By “shaping” I’m not talking about taking a non-existent bicep peak and turning it into an Arnold arm or anything like that… I just mean stimulating the entire muscle (every fiber) to grow rather than just a portion, and I think overloading a muscle in a stretched-but-contracted position is extremely valuable both in stretching the muscle fascia, and hitting every muscle fiber, since - as we all know - the bigger the stretch, the harder the contraction.

Ordinarily I recommend getting the biggest stretch you can at the bottom of most exercises, but with chest most peoples’ joints wouldn’t like the idea of getting a big pec stretch at the bottom of the flat bench, so that job gets left up to some sort of fly.

If you look at the bodybuilders that represent the “best of all time” bodyparts (eg: Dorian’s back, Arnold’s chest and biceps, Platz’s legs, etc.) you will find a few things that consistently arise: they are very strong on the basic exercises for those muscle groups (barbell rows, flat bench, barbell curls, squats… respectively… it’s never anything fancy!), and they always use exercises and form that deeply stretch those muscles under control.

(Interestingly, the opposite is almost always true as well… guys that have lousy thighs, lousy chests, lagging backs? They aren’t any good at the basic exercises, and they don’t take their time to get that controlled stretch either… it’s always pump pump pump contraction contraction trying to force the muscle to get bigger that way, and it never quite works out… but how does someone like Kai Greene or Antoine Vaillant actually do a great job of bringing up their lagging chests? Flat and incline barbell bench, and dumbbell flies. What a surprise!)

I believe muscle flexibility and overloading the stretch really do matter in bodybuilding. “Full range of motion” does seem to be as important as the old school guys told us it was.

71

This is my first post, but Ive been addicted to this site ever since I stumbled across it. I feel compelled to say something since I have done starting strength for the last 5 or so months. Let me preface that by saying that it was not the first time I lifted weights. I worked out for a few months pretty consistently on a traditional “bodybuilding” routine, but got lazy and stopped working out.

August 2010 I started back up following starting strength. I followed it almost 100%(left out power cleans because I didnt want to learn it/perform with incorrect technique) I started with empty bar on squats, OH press, and barbell rows. Bench I started with 75lbs. I cant remember what I started Deads with.

Long story short, I went 3 solid months, always increasing weight on squats and deads. I feel its a great program for beginners to get their strength up. It is definitely not a “bodybuilding” program. I gained about 15-20 solid pounds. I do want to add though, that once the weight on squats and bench got real heavy (3 months+), I stopped squatting 3 days a week. Squats drained me, so I started doing squats on their own day, then the bench, row, dips on a separate, and dead, pullups, and OH presses on another. Each once a week, and I was able to make slower but consistent increases.

My maxes went from: bench 180 to 210, dead 330 to 375, squat im not too sure because I used to do 1/4 rep squats before I knew better, but it is currently 285 deep, bar row is 185. long story short, I am happy with the results. I will say that I didnt gain any appreciable size, but my strength went way up, and that was what I wanted. These are all maxes from the last few days. Im switching to a traditional split because I want to gain size. 3-4 sets of higher reps.

My take away from this, great for beginners who are weak as shit, not so good for people trying to impress girls at the beach. As far as imbalances, I think a lot of beginners fall prey to the mirror muscles only training. I think it is a good balance with bench/dip, and pullup/bar row. And also, if you have been reading articles on here, you should know that no 1 program is the best, it should be changed every once in a while, probably more so the more advanced you are.

sorry such a long post. just my 2 cents

72

O, as far as being lower body dominant, ya, thats a lot of squatting. however, I dont feel misproportioned because of it. I think I put on some muscle in lower and upper body. And a lot of people have toothpick legs, so no fear of somehow having giant legs and small upper body. once strength is up, switch to a traditional split and balance things out more. Every person will be different. Each person has to evaluate themselves for muscle imbalances and fix lagging parts. My chest is dominant in flat bench, so I have a decent chest, but consider my triceps to be relatively small. My buddy is the opposite and has giant triceps but a nonexistent chest.

74

lol

76

The fact that you joined T-Nation just to tell mr popular that you think he’s wrong 7 months after the fact.

78

Who gives a shit?

80

[quote]Chris-Adams wrote:
Who ever said thats why I joined T-Nation.

If someone is going to criticize a program at least make sure you know what the program is. Does it matter that its 7 months after he said it? People will read it and might take what he says as the truth.

Do you have anything to say on the subject or are you just going post stupid stuff like “lol”?[/quote]

Maybe you should read the thread if you think that I haven’t said anything. I mean otherwise…you’d just be spouting off about something without really knowing what you were talking about… HMMMMM

82

[quote]Chris-Adams wrote:
I have read the thread.

Clearly you want to continue to post stupid stuff. If you want to discuss what the thread is about fine.If not I won’t respond to you again as you are clearly trolling now.
[/quote]

lol

83

I did an SL5x5/SS type program for 3 months, squatting 3 times a week. I was doing this at home where we only have 100 lbs of weights so once I did it 5x5, I did it 10x10 with 1 minute rest in between sets. So at 130 lbs, just starting out, I eventually squatted 10000 lbs total in a single workout. Now, my legs stretch my pants, my quads sweep out when I flex, and don’t even let me get started about what my ass looks like (and feels like too). But I started 5/3/1 so I do all my skwatz on one day.

However, I thought the consensus was that it’s best for a noob to just pick something and stick with it, no?

84

[quote]marrot wrote:

However, I thought the consensus was that it’s best for a noob to just pick something and stick with it, no?[/quote]

No.

A newb sticking with nothing but bench, curls, and situps 3 days a week is not a good idea, and neither is a newb squatting 3 days a week and neglecting entire parts of their body.

85

Not really, besides as a beginner you need to develop a strength base before you start worrying about weak points, etc.