Back Surgery For 39YO?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Over 35 Lifter
1

Hi, 39 y/o male and have degenerative disc disease or arthritic lower back with disc bulges at all lumbar levels and osteophytes present, anyway I have chronic lower back pain which flares with muscle spasms etc once a week or a fortnight, no pain down legs or anything, pain is lower lumbar, central and sometimes off to the right, facet type pain and comes on the day after activity.

I’m on tramal and anti-inflammatories all the time which Im not keen on because of possible side effects long term.

I have done all the rehab stuff, core training, stretching, chiro, physio. Coming to an end of all my options and generally getting pissed off, lol. Are there Others out there who have had good results from back surgery and are back training hard again??

Have heard good things about disc replacements but this is out of my price range, maybe laminectomy or a fusion. Did post a subject on deca but dont think it would be a long term solution either.

Interested on others experiences.

cheers!!

2

Have you considered that low testosterone levels could easily make these soft tissue problems worse? Men loose height from low T as the spine compresses. A catabolic state is something that needs to be avoided.

Have you ever used prednisone or related drugs?

Are you using:
fish oil
high dose vitamin D
vitamins and minerals
olive oil
are you getting significant amounts of magnesium

What are your thyroid numbers?
Do you use iodized salt?

Anti inflamitories can load up the P450 enzyme pathways in the liver, reducing the capacity to remove estrogen. Estrogen levels increase which drives down T production. What other long term drugs? Antihistamines? Cimetidine?

What is your fasting serum glucose level?
What are your fasting cholesterol numbers?
What is your waist size?
Are you overweight?

You may need to start directing your own health care. Doctors treat disease and are typically not in the business of finding root causes of problems.

If you are catabolic, your recovery from surgery will be slower less effective.

3

If its a disc bulge at any level going for a surgery is not an optimal solution. It isn’t an irreversible condition to say the least and can be definitely managed , healed conservatively through non-surgical means and also as KSman mentioned recovery from surgery will not be effective if your conditioning and metabolism is not helping your current state, that could as well be the root of the problem.

In my case I got injured in sport (irrespective of how that happened) and my upper back was thrashed (at the cervical and thoracic regions) after which going through numerous doctors , prescriptions , all sorts of meds for about 3-4 years none of which helped; eventually frustrated , giving up hope of ever getting back to 100% for the first time my lifestyle got sloppier each day , no sport, avoiding heavy physical activity all of that started depressing me (from being highly physically active to total passivity,smoking,drinking heavily, eating badly , irregular sleeping took its toll; bouts of long term depression and back injury don’t help your metabolism), from here my condition actually started getting worse in a downward spiral manner. But then eventually I took control and am on my way back (am at a stage where am confident of getting back to 100% and more).

From what you have written it almost seems like you are not ready to go through another iteration of rehab/mobility work, but you also didn’t mention what sort of rehab/core work did you go through and commit yourself to and for how long . Also please consider what KSman had to say.
BYW have you tried going through Mike Robertson and Eric Cressey articles on T-Nation, if you start studying and applying them you will definitely get a head start. I will be back with a few links later.

Am sure a lot of others will pitch in with their experiences and ideas so please hang on until you have said YES to surgery.

4

[quote]xydharth wrote:
In my case I got injured in sport (irrespective of how that happened) and my upper back was thrashed (at the cervical and thoracic regions) after which going through numerous doctors , prescriptions , all sorts of meds for about 3-4 years none of which helped; eventually frustrated , giving up hope of ever getting back to 100% for the first time my lifestyle got sloppier each day , no sport, avoiding heavy physical activity all of that started depressing me (from being highly physically active to total passivity,smoking,drinking heavily, eating badly , irregular sleeping took its toll; bouts of long term depression and back injury don’t help your metabolism), from here my condition actually started getting worse in a downward spiral manner. But then eventually I took control and am on my way back (am at a stage where am confident of getting back to 100% and more).[/quote]

What made the difference for you this time as opposed to the previous times?

To the OP, I am surprised you are as good as you are with so many bulging discs. I only have two mildly bulging discs and haven’t been able to sit or lie down for 9 months. That means no movies, restaurants, drives, no TV on the couch, etc., for good part of a year now. I guess I’m trying to cheer you up…

5

I have herniated disks in my back and neck and have they have gotten better without treatment. I have read a lot on the subject and everyone says surgery is the last option. It sounds like the OP is still active and can still train to at least some degree. I’m affraid the bad news you don’t want to hear may be that you are simply never going to be just like you were before. I’ve come to that realization myself. Still I feel fortunate because I can deadlift and squat while others would give a testicle to be able to sit on the couch and watch tv. BTW - I am 39 yrs old too.

6

I really would. After almost a year of this, it feels like my life is over. I’m standing in front of the computer typing this with a pencil because I still can’t even sit down.

7

[quote]seekonk wrote:

I really would. After almost a year of this, it feels like my life is over. I’m standing in front of the computer typing this with a pencil because I still can’t even sit down.
[/quote]

Went through this myself in my early 30’s, my surgeon wanted to do a 3 level fusion. i did not, got ESI (Epidural steroid injections) was finally able to sit down. Problem is you will never be the same. I lift heavy and will continue to lift heavy. I have had episodic exacerbations of my back from bending over to pick up a piece of paper to rounding my back dead lifting. I just decided that fuck it I can live with back pain. As a provider I have taken care of a lot of guys who had fusions to back, guess what they still have back pain. Do not do surgery for pain, you do surgery when you shit, piss on yourself or cant get a hard on. Just my two cents, but it is your life to live and you are the only one who can live it.

8

My wife is an ex-cop and injured her back taking down a guy twice her size. She was in chronic pain for a year and did PT, injections, everything short of surgery. The injections alieviated the pain temporarily but in some cases, did nothing.

We opted for microsurgery (Microdiscectomy) - shaving the herniated disk bulge that was pressing against the spinal nerve. She was sore for a couple of weeks, but the nerve pain was eliminated once the swelling went down. She is living pain free.

9

Hello seekonk,
Putting it very frankly and straight forward its as naive and simple as starting to believe (all conventional doctors, neurologists, orthos all they said , prescribed and ask me to do helped nothing but slowly rob my confidence infinitely, I was hitting lows of negativity every fucking day, trust me back injuries do that to you physically and no less psychologically; not so much other peripheral injuries; so something had to be done) that the condition can be improved and more and then some more , progression is the name of the game, so it basically is about getting stronger and strength training as we all know is about progression not a quick momentary fix like pills and injections. The difference between any other non injured guy strength training and rehab strength training is to choose critically what works for you best (so there’s a little less space to experiment than a non-injured person, but the goal is to increase that space) and by critically i mean something that actually makes some difference and not some hogwash, so it does entail a challenge but one that can be optimally tried ,tested, experienced and then move onto the next tougher thing.

I was practising gymnastics and martial art drills before getting injured so for me it began with easier exercises with manageable leveraged to more tougher ones like getting back to doing Pushups relearning them trying different variations and then relearning to do handstands (supported and then unsupported), headstands (unsupported,in spite of a fucked up neck and upper back, which actually helped me gain my confidence back to apply myself independently and experiment more); also getting to learn different variations like Pushup plus (and then trying my own version of handstand pushup plus simulating an overhead shrug), doing dieselcrew shoulder rehab which is posted on youtube , reading tons of stuff from T-Nation writers like Mike Robertson, Eric Cressey initially but more than reading doing more of it.
So rehab included both full body differently leveraged body weight drills as well as dead weight exercises mostly with dumbbells. But the core tenets of strength training such as what works for you might not work for all becomes more relevant when you are injured and rehabbing, each rep is more critical than the previous, quality is primary then comes quantity which is no less important and using your breath effectively to get in the groove also becomes a priority to handle stress during execution of any exercise.
Plus read up on FOAM Rolling (which helped me a lot to get a head start) on T-Nation there are many knowledgeable people here; its cheap and effective.
What you eat is of absolute importance, please read a lot here on T-Nation ; read what KSman said in an above post.
So coming back to you its too less an info ; please also give the history of your condition (was it due to an injury and what kind), your current and past level of physical activity, weight and height.
Also this site has numerous threads discussing people with far worse condition , disc bulges to herniations please use the search function on top right to access those threads by various members; you will get tons of info.Also shoot your queries to BushidoBAdBoy (BBB), he’s one very knowledgeable member and would surely help.

As much as you have said for your case start reading up on the following if you already haven’t:

1> Strength Training, Bodybuilding & Online Supplement Store - T NATION --Eric Cressey article includes an example of Foam Rolling

2> Forums - T Nation - The World's Trusted Community for Elite Fitness – great thread with lots of info

3> Strength Training, Bodybuilding & Online Supplement Store - T NATION Mike Robertson article about anterior posterior imbalances and how lumbar stability is a direct cause of this and hence the root of the fix in many cases && StrongLifts 5×5 workout: Get Stronger by Lifting 3x/Week to learn the reverse crunch.

4> Strength Training, Bodybuilding & Online Supplement Store - T NATION

5> Forums - T Nation - The World's Trusted Community for Elite Fitness – last three posts by J-J relevant in your case and the importance of intra-abdominal pressure to stabilize and the role of breathing in doing so.

6> Strength Training, Bodybuilding & Online Supplement Store - T NATION
search for all other parts , i guess its a 5 part series.

7> Strength Training, Bodybuilding & Online Supplement Store - T NATION --length tension relationship and foam rolling.

8> Parallette Training - Volume 1 – master the L-sit perfect for relearning Lumbar stability/hip mobility.

9> Learn How to Do a Handstand - Cast Handstand Wall Walks - YouTube wall walks progression to learn handstand && Shaolin Monk Demonstrates Kung Fu Horse Stance (Ma Bu) - YouTube kung fu horse stance great for lumbar stability and leg strength.

Don’t underestimate the potential of bodyweight drills in a rehab situation.

Sorry for the very long post , hope it helps.

10

[quote]seekonk wrote:

I really would. After almost a year of this, it feels like my life is over. I’m standing in front of the computer typing this with a pencil because I still can’t even sit down.
[/quote]

I feel for you. I was like this for a week or two but got “better” pretty quickly. How did you hurt yourself?

11

hi all, some interesting and useful info, have been doing all the fish oil, vitamin d, glucosamine, testosterone levels are good, got abit of weight to lose but its a work in progress. I think my injuries probably stem back to when i was a kid playing rugby league as well as a high level of tennis and being a generally active sports nut, wear and tare. Most of my training has consisted of oly lifting with lots of squats and over head squats, all good core stuff, cant name it but do a movement to switch TA muscles on, basically lifting one leg off the ground at a time while contracting TA and keeping pelvis still. Lateral and prone bridges as well as an extensive stretching routine for my back. Most of my pain is right lower lumbar and after seeing my doc they other day (who is a gp for a couple of elite sports teams here)says that it could be facet joints causing my problems (arthritic) so Im going to try facet joint injections which he said if they work can give me relief for a few months which is what he has seen in a few of his patients that are fast bowlers(cricket players) that are prone to this type of injury. Also theres and option if this works of getting the nerve to the facet joint frozen/cut to stop pain to the joint and its minimally invasive, is day surgery and up and about doing normal activities within a day or 2. This isnt something im jumping into, its been off and on for years but been quite consistant for the last 2 months.

Thanks for all the advice, keep it coming.

12

been 2 hours since my facet joint injections in right side L 3/4 and L 4/5, was injected with an anaesthetic and cortisone, the doc doing the procedure said some people have up to 6 months pain relief some only get 3 months, he said my facet joints are very arthritic, he said it comes with doing sport, your damed if u do and damed if u dont, lol. These injection have eased my pain so its a good sign that my pain is caused by the facet joints and not dics related and will get further improvement in a few more days. My body feels abit funny as it tries to find its equilibrium and is not in a ball of knots trying to compensate for the pain i was in, but overall i feel alot better, and i dont have to rely on other pain killers for awhile.

So now i can go out and keep active and try and stay on top of my back rehab work and also knock off a few more pounds too. Dr also said up too 3 injections a year is ok to have and the procedure wasnt very painful at all, some mild pain like when i get a back spasm, if i can get 3-6 months relief with this i will do it again for sure, early days so far though, but its promising.

cheers!!

13

Thank you. This is great information, and I really appreciate it.

[quote]xydharth wrote:
Hello seekonk,
Putting it very frankly and straight forward its as naive and simple as starting to believe (all conventional doctors, neurologists, orthos all they said , prescribed and ask me to do helped nothing but slowly rob my confidence infinitely, I was hitting lows of negativity every fucking day, trust me back injuries do that to you physically and no less psychologically; not so much other peripheral injuries; so something had to be done) that the condition can be improved and more and then some more , progression is the name of the game, so it basically is about getting stronger and strength training as we all know is about progression not a quick momentary fix like pills and injections. The difference between any other non injured guy strength training and rehab strength training is to choose critically what works for you best (so there’s a little less space to experiment than a non-injured person, but the goal is to increase that space) and by critically i mean something that actually makes some difference and not some hogwash, so it does entail a challenge but one that can be optimally tried ,tested, experienced and then move onto the next tougher thing.

I was practising gymnastics and martial art drills before getting injured so for me it began with easier exercises with manageable leveraged to more tougher ones like getting back to doing Pushups relearning them trying different variations and then relearning to do handstands (supported and then unsupported), headstands (unsupported,in spite of a fucked up neck and upper back, which actually helped me gain my confidence back to apply myself independently and experiment more); also getting to learn different variations like Pushup plus (and then trying my own version of handstand pushup plus simulating an overhead shrug), doing dieselcrew shoulder rehab which is posted on youtube , reading tons of stuff from T-Nation writers like Mike Robertson, Eric Cressey initially but more than reading doing more of it.
So rehab included both full body differently leveraged body weight drills as well as dead weight exercises mostly with dumbbells. But the core tenets of strength training such as what works for you might not work for all becomes more relevant when you are injured and rehabbing, each rep is more critical than the previous, quality is primary then comes quantity which is no less important and using your breath effectively to get in the groove also becomes a priority to handle stress during execution of any exercise.
Plus read up on FOAM Rolling (which helped me a lot to get a head start) on T-Nation there are many knowledgeable people here; its cheap and effective.
What you eat is of absolute importance, please read a lot here on T-Nation ; read what KSman said in an above post.
So coming back to you its too less an info ; please also give the history of your condition (was it due to an injury and what kind), your current and past level of physical activity, weight and height.
Also this site has numerous threads discussing people with far worse condition , disc bulges to herniations please use the search function on top right to access those threads by various members; you will get tons of info.Also shoot your queries to BushidoBAdBoy (BBB), he’s one very knowledgeable member and would surely help.

As much as you have said for your case start reading up on the following if you already haven’t:

1> Strength Training, Bodybuilding & Online Supplement Store - T NATION --Eric Cressey article includes an example of Foam Rolling

2> Forums - T Nation - The World's Trusted Community for Elite Fitness – great thread with lots of info

3> Strength Training, Bodybuilding & Online Supplement Store - T NATION Mike Robertson article about anterior posterior imbalances and how lumbar stability is a direct cause of this and hence the root of the fix in many cases && StrongLifts 5×5 workout: Get Stronger by Lifting 3x/Week to learn the reverse crunch.

4> Strength Training, Bodybuilding & Online Supplement Store - T NATION

5> Forums - T Nation - The World's Trusted Community for Elite Fitness – last three posts by J-J relevant in your case and the importance of intra-abdominal pressure to stabilize and the role of breathing in doing so.

6> Strength Training, Bodybuilding & Online Supplement Store - T NATION
search for all other parts , i guess its a 5 part series.

7> Strength Training, Bodybuilding & Online Supplement Store - T NATION --length tension relationship and foam rolling.

8> Parallette Training - Volume 1 – master the L-sit perfect for relearning Lumbar stability/hip mobility.

9> Learn How to Do a Handstand - Cast Handstand Wall Walks - YouTube wall walks progression to learn handstand && Shaolin Monk Demonstrates Kung Fu Horse Stance (Ma Bu) - YouTube kung fu horse stance great for lumbar stability and leg strength.

Don’t underestimate the potential of bodyweight drills in a rehab situation.

Sorry for the very long post , hope it helps.
[/quote]