Arnold's Genetics

Training Bodybuilding
61

Heavy fool,

I’m dieing to know, how old are you? Be honest. I like the “Rudy” mentality, but that alone won’t take you to the top.

Zane had terrible genetics…WTF? Holy cow. Nubret had skinny forearms, terrible genetics. Columbo was too short, Moller was too tall, Sonbaty was too thick, Paris was too gay. All these guys had flaws, but they had superior genetics and huge amounts of muscle. Zane’s chest separation is not an example of bad genetics.

Woody Allen and Pee Wee Herman are good examples of bad bodybuilding genetics. I don’t think you quite underestand “genetics”.

62

[quote]PGJ wrote:
Go Heavy Fool,

You seem to have good intentions. The “don’t give up and don’t make excuses” is a great attitude. You’ll go far. However, you need to realize that there are a lot of good people here who know what they are talking about, and when a new guy comes in and starts making silly observations and rediculous comments…well, it will get nasty.

You are young and enthusiastic. That’s good. But you do not appear to be qualified to discuss the genetic makeup of some of the greatest bodybuilders of all time. Just sit back, read a lot, and ask questions.

A little while ago some new dude jumped in here and with one of his first posts, proceeded to tell us we are all screwed up for not using swiss balls. He got creamed. Know your limitations. This is a great forum, the best I’ve seen on the topic. Stick around and you will learn something. [/quote]

yes i read some of the swiss ball bullshit… quite funny

i have no doubts about the genetic factor as an advantage. my point is don’t make it as an excuse

i would pretty much agree with everyone on this htread regarding the genetics and where it can take you, but nobody seemed to think there was another way.

i really just wanted to say in other words that you can overcome those obstacles regardless of how impossible it may seem.

when it comes to genetics, there really is no set of rules.

now a track runner isnt going to be an excellent boxer, but thats why he runs track

and a non motivated skinny guy with “bad genetics” won’t even be the best built guy in his own gym, but that doesn’t rule out the possibilty either.

sure the odds are stacked against you, but that never stoped me from anything. shouln’t stop anybody. odds apparantly have a % which you can win, i’ll take whaever that % is and roll with it

good points by everyone, thanks for all the responses

i’m a realist, that’s why i never rule out the possibility of anything

there’s a counter arguement for anything that you say, the point is understanding though. i understand what’s possible, just not alot of people actually believe in themselves if they are not guarenteed in that possibility. i just try to keep hope alive sometimes.

to me, Arnold and Ronnie arn’t the only ones allowed to be Mr. Olympia, there are alot more people out there that could be if they just believed it possible.

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[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
He is assumed to be a true mutant because his body lacks a hormone which has catabolistic effect.

Post the source of this information.

Genetics play a role in determining muscle shape and growth potential.

Hardgainers exist. Look up hyperthyroidism.

Arnold wasn’t “skinny” at 16. You can’t call someone with more muscle mass than 90% of the population (99% at the time) skinny. Skinny denotes a lack of muscle.

[/quote]
Flex apparently has a myostatin gene mutation and an odd form of IGF-1. www.musclephotos.com/myogene.html

64

[quote]PGJ wrote:

A little while ago some new dude jumped in here and with one of his first posts, proceeded to tell us we are all screwed up for not using swiss balls. He got creamed. Know your limitations. This is a great forum, the best I’ve seen on the topic. Stick around and you will learn something. [/quote]

And he was absolutely right! According to him(and his troll companion) they trounced everyone else. We at T-Nation follow the masses. Whatever.

And Go Heavy–
I very much agree with going with all you’ve got regardless of how things are stacked against you. But there is likely to be a lot of competition that doesn’t have the odds stacked against them. Hell, they may even be stacked FOR some of them. The elite are often separated by so little. That’s where the genetics come in a lot of the time.

65

I’d like to thank everyone who has contributed to my thread. Especially CT, Prof X, and Kratos… who all pretty much said the same thing. What I took away from starting this thread was the fact that Genetics really won’t matter to much if at all to get you far in bodybuilding. Only at the highest levels of the elite athletes may it come into play because there is so little difference between their progress.

I don’t see how no matter how bad your genetics supposedly are should get in anyones way of accomplishing a world class physique.

You may not be Mr. Olympia, but it doesn’t rule out the possibility that you can’t make it on to the Olympia stage someday to try to compete. I like to think anything is possible if the detmination is there.

Reality may set in that you may never be #1 in the world. But even if you were #30 out of millions that would be one hell of an accomplishment for someone with shitty genetics, probably more than the guy that’s gets to be #1 because of his natural genetic lines and structure.

I still will not rule out the possibility of it though no matter how far fetched it may sound. True, the best of the best may be decided by their genetic disposition, but don’t let that ever stop you from becoming a champion in your own right. From what I understand the judging is selective anyway and alot of opinion based on todays trend.

i always thought Flex Wheeler looked better than everyone for the last 10 years, but then again don’t matter what I think because i don’t get to judge.

Genetics are far less important than most people think. The average bodybuilder won’t even develope a physique good enough for the stage anyway. Regardless of whether their genetics are considered good or not.

Thanks for the input guys. If I have any more thoughts to be torn apart, I’ll let ya know.

66

im going to agree with GOHEAVY a little bit. arnold has great genetics in retrospect, but his only unbelievable bodyparts are chest and bi’s. franco had better genetics for muscle building, so did the myth. i also agree that zane’s genetics were not that great. he had a lot of weak points. arnold talks about weak points in pumping iron, and how he overcame them.

i think genetics matter, but anyone can get pretty big and ripped.

67

Arnold had great genetics , and he worked hard , you need to have both to be a chanpion that’s true if someone just has good genetics but piles up tons of AAS and does one set a day in the gym like phill dilet for example yes he will be big but he won’t be a chanpion.

The problem is with people who have probably avrage genetics , maybe above average do half assed work and claim to be a hard gainer , anyone better then them will never get any credit for his work , best compliment by such hard gainer is “good genetics what a freak of nature” and the likes…

You can have an arnold like physique on a smaller scale maybe but if you work hard and build mass at the right places your genetics tend to change lol

68

I always find it interesting looking back at the new encyclopedia of modern bbing though at the pictures of him posing at 15… He looks tiny… Prob no more than 160lbs, whereas there’s a pic of reeves at 15 and he already has some mass and a great shape.

69

“The harder I train and better I eat…the better my genetics seem to get.” …:wink:

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[quote]pimparealwoman wrote:
“The harder I train and better I eat…the better my genetics seem to get.” …;)[/quote]

Great quote.

71

[quote]Go heavy fool wrote:

I don’t see how no matter how bad your genetics supposedly are should get in anyones way of accomplishing a world class physique.

You may not be Mr. Olympia, but it doesn’t rule out the possibility that you can’t make it on to the Olympia stage someday to try to compete. I like to think anything is possible if the detmination is there.

Reality may set in that you may never be #1 in the world. But even if you were #30 out of millions that would be one hell of an accomplishment for someone with shitty genetics…

… don’t let that ever stop you from becoming a champion in your own right.

Genetics are far less important than most people think. The average bodybuilder won’t even develope a physique good enough for the stage anyway…

[/quote]

Answer me this, borrowing from another user’s example, if Woody Allen trained did everything right (training, nutrition, AAS, determination, etc) he could make it onto the Olympia stage?

By your reasoning so far, he would not only make it on stage, HE COULD WIN! If he wants it bad enough, by golly he can do it.

Furthermore, you say that if you are #30 in the world you may still have “shitty genetics”, but then you say “the average bodybuilder won’t even develope [sic] good a good enough physique for the stage anyway.”

Do you even read this stuff before you post it.

If a person is #30 out of millions, then THEY ARE GENETICALLY GIFTED, THEREFORE THEY WOULD NOT HAVE “shitty genetics”!!

Again, I think your main point is trying to escape your horrible communication skills in the phrase “don’t let that ever stop you from becoming a champion in your own right.”

I agree with that, and I think most other posters do, too. Maximimize your gentetic potential. Don’t use “bad genetics” as an excuse to have poor nutrition or to be undisiplined in your training/lifestyle.

This has been said plenty of times by plenty of people without some backward-ass example.

72

[quote]GPUK wrote:
I always find it interesting looking back at the new encyclopedia of modern bbing though at the pictures of him posing at 15… He looks tiny… Prob no more than 160lbs, whereas there’s a pic of reeves at 15 and he already has some mass and a great shape.[/quote]

Back then that wasn’t “tiny”. That is what some people seem to be missing. If this were 50 years ago, anyone weighing over 200lbs of muscular weight would be considered one of the most muscular people around. There were no people just casually walking around weighing as much as I do and no one had 20" muscular arms unless they were serious strength trainers or bodybuilders. Leroy Colbert was credited as being the first bodybuilder in the late 50’s-60’s to EVER get arms that measured 21". Before him, there were none and no one even thought it was possible.

That is why you don’t grab an old pic of someone from 60 years ago and compare them directly with weight trainers today. People like Sergio Oliva would be unimaginable today if they were growing up around the advantages many people take for granted. People like that had to learn everything on their own. We get bastards on this forum complaining because someone won’t grab their hand and walk them through every article…and then they don’t even make much progress. In comparison, we may have greater advantages now, but that won’t balance out against the greater number of pussy ass bitches populating the Earth.

73

[quote]Professor X wrote:
GPUK wrote:
I always find it interesting looking back at the new encyclopedia of modern bbing though at the pictures of him posing at 15… He looks tiny… Prob no more than 160lbs, whereas there’s a pic of reeves at 15 and he already has some mass and a great shape.

Back then that wasn’t “tiny”. That is what some people seem to be missing. If this were 50 years ago, anyone weighing over 200lbs of muscular weight would be considered one of the most muscular people around. There were no people just casually walking around weighing as much as I do and no one had 20" muscular arms unless they were serious strength trainers or bodybuilders. Leroy Colbert was credited as being the first bodybuilder in the late 50’s-60’s to EVER get arms that measured 21". Before him, there were none and no one even thought it was possible.

That is why you don’t grab an old pic of someone from 60 years ago and compare them directly with weight trainers today. People like Sergio Oliva would be unimaginable today if they were growing up around the advantages many people take for granted. People like that had to learn everything on their own. We get bastards on this forum complaining because someone won’t grab their hand and walk them through every article…and then they don’t even make much progress. In comparison, we may have greater advantages now, but that won’t balance out against the greater number of pussy ass bitches populating the Earth.

[/quote]

I find it so ridiculous that anyone can’t grasp this. Arnold at 16, given the times, was a monster. By 18-19 he would be considered mythilogical, and we have people on this supposed weightlifting board downplaying his genetic potential.

We have a kid who claims Hendrix and Clapton are nominal players that anyone who picks up a guitar should be able to mimic as a low end standard.

Frank Zane was of poor genetics.

This is like trying to compare Aaron and Bonds. Given todays ‘advantages’ what would Aaron have done. Small parks, watered down pitching, training and supplementation advantages, the differences in racial culture…it’s extremely difficult to compare differing eras of anything.

Please!-We all at least should understand nobody stood on the O stage and accepted the Sandow that didn’t put in tremendous effort. That is consistant from year one to now. Those bodies–albeit differing physiques–were achieved with tremedous amounts of HARD work over a LONG period of time. The genetic aspect is obvious–again, to most of us.

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It’s like I said a few pages ago, genetics aren’t going to stop anybody from developing 19 inch arms if that’s their goal and they give it their all. Genetics aren’t going to stop anybody who practices like crazy from being an excellent guitar player. Genetics aren’t going to stop someone who struggles with math from getting As in advanced math classes. But such people are not going to be the next Ron Coleman [or the bodybuilder 30 places lower], play guitar like Carlos Santana, or be the nest Einstein. Deal with it.

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[quote]jsbrook wrote:
It’s like I said a few pages ago, genetics aren’t going to stop anybody from developing 19 inch arms if that’s their goal and they give it their all. Genetics aren’t going to stop anybody who practices like crazy from being an excellent guitar player. Genetics aren’t going to stop someone who struggles with math from getting As in advanced math classes. But such people are not going to be the next Ron Coleman [or the bodybuilder 30 places lower], play guitar like Carlos Santana, or be the nest Einstein. Deal with it.[/quote]

You are even taking it too far. Everyone won’t be able to achieve 19" arms regardless of how hard they try. Anyone who can naturally reach arms over 18" is considered to have decent genetics for muscle growth. Arms bigger than that is NOT average. That shouldn’t stop people from trying to be the best that they can and no one will know their limit until they actually reach it. That makes it pointless to even worry about your genetic limit unless you are stupid enough to focus your entire life on bodybuilding before you ever build any size…like one poster I can think of who is trying to compete before he has even spent a full year training regularly.

76

Leroy Colbert, the first man to have arms that measured 21".

How stupid would it be to compare him directly to Ronnie Coleman and say he had poor genetics? These were the pioneers of bodybuilding. They were the ones reaching levels of muscularity that no one had ever gotten to before. That is why anyone saying Zane had poor genetics is a retard. Anyone saying Arnold was “tiny” at 16 is dumb as fuck. You are these things because you can’t visualize what it was like 50 or 60 years ago and can only compare people to whatever standards you have running through your minds today. The real question is, how many people on this forum are breaking any standards or stereotypes in their own lives?

77

[quote]Professor X wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
It’s like I said a few pages ago, genetics aren’t going to stop anybody from developing 19 inch arms if that’s their goal and they give it their all. Genetics aren’t going to stop anybody who practices like crazy from being an excellent guitar player. Genetics aren’t going to stop someone who struggles with math from getting As in advanced math classes. But such people are not going to be the next Ron Coleman [or the bodybuilder 30 places lower], play guitar like Carlos Santana, or be the nest Einstein. Deal with it.

You are even taking it too far. Everyone won’t be able to achieve 19" arms regardless of how hard they try. Anyone who can naturally reach arms over 18" is considered to have decent genetics for muscle growth. Arms bigger than that is NOT average. That shouldn’t stop people from trying to be the best that they can and no one will know their limit until they actually reach it. That makes it pointless to even worry about your genetic limit unless you are stupid enough to focus your entire life on bodybuilding before you ever build any size…like one poster I can think of who is trying to compete before he has even spent a full year training regularly.[/quote]

You’re right. I was just throwing out a number. Not everyone will be able to get 19 inch arms naturally. But everyone can get a solid physique. You’re also right that you should just go after your goals with 100% effort. You’ll get where you get. As long as you know you’ve done all you can, then that’s all you can do.

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Does anyone here know why Arnold ever began weightlifting? To get to Hollywood. That’s right, he saw that as a ticket to America. Talk about a man with goals and determination. He not only became champion earlier than anyone else, he then moved here, learned the language, married a Kennedy, and became the Governor of California. Let’s face it, determination and dedication can get you anywhere. If only there wasn’t that pesky law preventing him from running for President…

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[quote]Cat Nip wrote:
Does anyone here know why Arnold ever began weightlifting? To get to Hollywood. That’s right, he saw that as a ticket to America. Talk about a man with goals and determination. He not only became champion earlier than anyone else, he then moved here, learned the language, married a Kennedy, and became the Governor of California. Let’s face it, determination and dedication can get you anywhere. If only there wasn’t that pesky law preventing him from running for President…[/quote]

you have illustrated my point very well. i did not want to go there though, i could not even get past the bodybuilding perspective. what i tried to do was show that Arnold’s determination factor had more to do with his succes than his genetics. but i have failed. the reason i used arnold was because his genetics were considered spectacular by most. i saw him different.

i saw his determination as spectacular, that determination resulted in the greatest bodybuilder of all time, one of the biggest movie starts ever, the governor, Kennedy marraige, you name it…the man is determined. he also has a degree in buisness from uviv of wisconsin.

i wanted to shift the thought of genetics holding people back to dtermination overcomming the odds. lets face it Arnold was not a typical movie star. he had a vision. and he followed thru with it. if we all could only have his vision. and if only half of my readers only could visualize what i’m talking about. i think alot of you do.

but alot of you do like to just debate for the sake of debating. there is some concept behind my madness. trust me. that’s why i choose ARNOLD. if i can show that this guy “The genetic freak” …arnold, had a determination factor that ran his life and not his genetics. than it will hold true for everyone. well basicaly everyone. most of us anyway.

of course if you have no arms and lost them in an accident and you are 5’ 2" tall, you are probaly not gonna make MR. O, but thats not at all what I’m saying. some people just like to pretend that i am. You all know what I’m talking about. It just may yake alot more effort and believe for you to fancy these realities. thats why genetics wont matter to 99% of the people who read this thread. how many of us will actually be in an Olympia contest.

I like Prof X’s stand. just don’t confuse it with what I’m saying. I know nobody can look like Arnold. Arnold can’t even look like Arnold. He’s 60 years old. But that wasn’t what made arnold. Genetics are kinetic energy that will only be released thru determination. Most people think you have to have the genetics first. It’s actually reversed. Until the point is realized, you have failed in your thoughts.

“Imagination is more important than knowledge” - Einstein

…I do believe Arnold must have took Albert’s advice

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Read the last sentence from the link somebody posted earlier on this thread.

–
October 1, 1998

Re: Flex Wheeler

To whom it may concern:

I am writing this letter per the request of Flex Wheeler.

I would first like to briefly provide you with some background information regarding BALCO Laboratories. BALCO has been working with elite Olympic and professional athletes for over fifteen years. BALCO has provided testing and consultation for over 250 NFL players including the entire 1998 Super Bowl Champion Denver Broncos team and the entire Miami Dolphins team. BALCO works with professional athletes in many sports including teenis (Michael Chang, Jim Courier, etc.), hockey, bodybuilding (10 of the 16 1998 Mr. Olympia contestants), track and field, soccer and basketball (Seattle SuperSonics).

BALCO Laboratories has been testing and monitoring Flex on a routine basis during the last year. We have performed tests including blood chemistry (SMAC), complete blood count (CBC), PSA, anabolic hormone levels, genotyping as well as comprehensive testing for nutritional elements. Flex’s test results have been compared to twenty-four other professional bodybuilders and overall he has one of the healthiest profiles. Basically, Flex is in excellent health and has demonstrated the discipline necessary to maintain a peak level of conditioning.

–

Didn’t Flex stop bodybuilding because of kidney failure in 2000 or 2001?

Does anybody know if this due to bad genetics or related to supplement abuse ?