Anything Off Limits w/ All Out Bulk?

Training Bodybuilding
121

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]schism45 wrote:

[quote]Ironfreak wrote:
I honestly believe that people have started to overuse the advice of “asking questions.”

In school, the teacher always told you to ask questions, and that it doesn’t mean that you are stupid. The big guys even in here said they asked the bigger people in the gym for advice. However, people now want all the answers without doing any thinking/experimenting for themselves.

I read Prof X’s ramping thread. I watched Blood and Guts. I had a few questions, but I didn’t want to sound like an idiot/newb, an 09’er, what have you. Guess what happened? I either re-read the thread, watched Blood and Guts again, or simply figured it out on my own. Its not rocket science.

I’m not saying dont ask questions. But not before seeking the answers yourself. [/quote]
The challenge isn’t in finding advice. The challenge is in knowing who’s advice to trust.

Look at this thread, for example. Lots of different advice and most of it contradicting each other. If you don’t already have some base knowledge, I can see how it would be easy to get a bit lost.[/quote]

???

What advice is contradicting itself? How simple does this stuff need to be laid out for some of you to get it?

And on the subject of who to listen to, why is that even a hard decision? Why would you listen to someone who never got big about how to get big?

Why would you listen to the “I train my CNS guy” while ignoring the people on the site who actually have backgrounds in biology with some of us even being doctors in our fields?

Who to listen to?

I used to ask questions of the biggest people in the gym. That helped me get big. Somehow, this is now too difficult a task as every newb starts in with “but every big guy doesn’t know how to lift and may have just used steroids so I will go to every skinny guy I see for advice too!!!”

No, it isn’t difficult at all…unless you specifically MAKE it that way.[/quote] The OP made a new thread that immediately had a few different points of view thrown at him. I can see why he would get confused from that initially (note: this doesn’t excuse not getting it after a few pages).

That you smash down the people who’s advice is terrible is what clears things up and makes it easy for a noob to follow. This is good.

I’m pretty sure we aren’t actually disagreeing on anything. I think that you may have misunderstood me, in the same way that it is very easy to misunderstand you.

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[quote]schism45 wrote:

The challenge isn’t in finding advice. The challenge is in knowing who’s advice to trust.

Look at this thread, for example. Lots of different advice and most of it contradicting each other. If you don’t already have some base knowledge, I can see how it would be easy to get a bit lost.[/quote]

That would be true if the OP hadn’t already been told, several times, to do some reading up on basic bodybuilding nutrition. If you have to ask what foods are off-limits during a bulk, then it’s pretty clear that the required “base knowledge” isn’t in place yet; if it was, you wouldn’t have to ask in the first place.

The last thing the OP should be doing at this point is to “eat everything”: he’ll almost certainly end up as part of the legions of newly-created slobs that blame their failure on guys that apparently told them to get fat (when no such advice was given in the first place).

It seems to me that the interpretation of ‘bulking up’ as deliberately getting as fat as possible actually comes from the dudes who are encouraged to bulk up, but have absolutely no idea of how to do it sensibly. Then, even worse, the multitude of skinny emo fuckers latch on to their failure and use it to support their viewpoints (and not only do they know even less about nutrition, but I’d bet most of them have underlying issues with food and a horribly skewed idea of health and fitness- but I won’t go into that).

Most of the other advice given assumes that he has done the required reading (and going by his initial question, he hasn’t). Besides, if you’re in any doubt as to whose opinion is trustworthy, then seeking advice on a public forum without having done some prior research is just asking for trouble.

123

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]schism45 wrote:

The challenge isn’t in finding advice. The challenge is in knowing who’s advice to trust.

Look at this thread, for example. Lots of different advice and most of it contradicting each other. If you don’t already have some base knowledge, I can see how it would be easy to get a bit lost.[/quote]

That would be true if the OP hadn’t already been told, several times, to do some reading up on basic bodybuilding nutrition. If you have to ask what foods are off-limits during a bulk, then it’s pretty clear that the required “base knowledge” isn’t in place yet; if it was, you wouldn’t have to ask in the first place.

The last thing the OP should be doing at this point is to “eat everything”: he’ll almost certainly end up as part of the legions of newly-created slobs that blame their failure on guys that apparently told them to get fat (when no such advice was given in the first place).

It seems to me that the interpretation of ‘bulking up’ as deliberately getting as fat as possible actually comes from the dudes who are encouraged to bulk up, but have absolutely no idea of how to do it sensibly. Then, even worse, the multitude of skinny emo fuckers latch on to their failure and use it to support their viewpoints (and not only do they know even less about nutrition, but I’d bet most of them have underlying issues with food and a horribly skewed idea of health and fitness- but I won’t go into that).

Most of the other advice given assumes that he has done the required reading (and going by his initial question, he hasn’t). Besides, if you’re in any doubt as to whose opinion is trustworthy, then seeking advice on a public forum without having done some prior research is just asking for trouble.
[/quote]

But wait…that implies that the responsibility to do the research lies in the individual asking questions.

How can we blame other people for our own shortcomings if it is our responsibility to pay attention to who has actually succeeded and who hasn’t?!!!

Damn it, why OH why can’t someone just hold my hand and spoon feed me everything I need to know with ZERO effort on my part???

Fucking real world.

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I hope no-one listens to my short bulk/diet cycling method…(where is the “delete post” button?! LOL). This method doesn’t NOT work - it works for those desiring composition changes and a little muscle (and who want to stay “in shape” year round)…but it’s still the longer route and just not the best way to go for huge gains. So for those who read this thread and get confused - there’s the clarification for you…no contradiction now.

ty_ty13:
To add a little point to the bulking points:

When you start to gain a lot more fat to muscle, like 10% muscle/90% fat, (when before, it was ok, like at least 50% muscle)…then this is usually a sign of burn out. When you become burned out, t-levels plummet and you burn less fat and build less muscle. Either lower the volume for a while (autoregulation), or if you haven’t had a break in over a few months, maybe take a week off. It’s amazing how much you can rebound after going a bit easier for a while. If you have to take it easy/take breaks often, then you probably have crap training set up.

So straight away, that throws out and contradicts what you said: “doesn’t my going to the gym so much help me to keep the fat gains off?”. It’s not just the exercise (burning fat during) that matters, it’s how the exercise affects your hormones afterwards which counts just as much if not more. Doing too much exercise (which lowers anabolism) is worse than not doing enough, because, at least if you aren’t doing enough exercise to keep fat gains low, you’ll likely be getting bigger/stronger. Many people said that when they did Dantes style of training (doggcrap), they got fat (due to the lack of volume)…but asside from other obvious things, fat control is not what matters when weight training.

To echo what dankid said, better to concentrate more on one goal at a time. But like I said, becoming burned out (e.g. no desire to train, lifts stagnating etc) will cause your muscle to fat ratio to flip (negatively).

125

[quote]roybot wrote:

That would be true if the OP hadn’t already been told, several times, to do some reading up on basic bodybuilding nutrition. If you have to ask what foods are off-limits during a bulk, then it’s pretty clear that the required “base knowledge” isn’t in place yet; if it was, you wouldn’t have to ask in the first place.

[/quote]

The OP’s quesion was a legitimate one. But he asked the question and then refused to recognize the advice given. Sure, he got a bunch of different answers. This is a public forum, and on this question there is NO one right answer. No text book is going to say that during a bulk chicken and lean meats are ok, but beef and pizza are not.

The OP either has a reading comprehendion problem or is just trolling now. Even if he didn’t do the research on his own, the answers are in this thread.

I guess you can lead a “hardgainer” to food, but you cant make them eat it.

126

[quote]dankid wrote:
I guess you can lead a “hardgainer” to food, but you cant make them eat it.[/quote]

What is a hardgainer? :slight_smile:

127

Asking questions has gotten so out of hand on this forum that I now think that approximately 25% of the members are insane, have mood or personality disorders, don’t socialize much, or are self-defeatist and masochistic.

Ever hear of the Myth of Syciphus? Well, I don’t know the whole story anymore, but a god cursed Syciphus cursed Syciphus with having to have a boulder on his back for ETERNITY. He forever tried to get this boulder up a hill, but never could. So that boulder stayed on his back… FOREVER!

Now, the jackoffs on this board aren’t going to be carrying a boulder around, but some of the more incoherent ones should be cursed with forever reading and asking questions and never making progress in the gym.

As I said dozens of times, even when these people do bump into useful information, they pay no attention and can’t apply it. Some kid posted a diet that he said is 4,000 calories. I didn’t whip out my calculator and food almanac to figure out how many calories there were, but this thing looked more like 6,000 calories or more.

This guy is a buck-fifty and wondering why he’s getting fat off of 4,000 calories, let alone a diet that’s actually 6,000 or more. And where did he get the number of 4,000? This folly just shows that we now have people that pull arbitrary shit out of their ass. And this incoherence goes to show that they don’t or can’t apply what’s given to them.

I say these people should a) seek psychotherapy, b) hire a personal trainer and dietitian that will give them a thorough education and tell them EVERYTHING to do, or c) pay some god-damned attention when reading and listening, and/or d) give up!

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[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Ever hear of the Myth of Syciphus?[/quote]

Sisyphus. And he was required to push the boulder up a hill… only to have it roll back down right after.

People wasting years lifting for progress that never comes might be said to be engaging in a Sisyphean task.

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[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Asking questions has gotten so out of hand on this forum that I now think that approximately 25% of the members are insane, have mood or personality disorders, don’t socialize much, or are self-defeatist and masochistic.

Ever hear of the Myth of Syciphus? Well, I don’t know the whole story anymore, but a god cursed Syciphus cursed Syciphus with having to have a boulder on his back for ETERNITY. He forever tried to get this boulder up a hill, but never could. So that boulder stayed on his back… FOREVER!

Now, the jackoffs on this board aren’t going to be carrying a boulder around, but some of the more incoherent ones should be cursed with forever reading and asking questions and never making progress in the gym.

As I said dozens of times, even when these people do bump into useful information, they pay no attention and can’t apply it. Some kid posted a diet that he said is 4,000 calories. I didn’t whip out my calculator and food almanac to figure out how many calories there were, but this thing looked more like 6,000 calories or more.

This guy is a buck-fifty and wondering why he’s getting fat off of 4,000 calories, let alone a diet that’s actually 6,000 or more. And where did he get the number of 4,000? This folly just shows that we now have people that pull arbitrary shit out of their ass. And this incoherence goes to show that they don’t or can’t apply what’s given to them.

I say these people should a) seek psychotherapy, b) hire a personal trainer and dietitian that will give them a thorough education and tell them EVERYTHING to do, or c) pay some god-damned attention when reading and listening, and/or d) give up![/quote]

Sounds like someone cares too much? lol

If someone listens, that’s a bonus…spend time helping these ones because it’s a 1 in 10 occurrence. Other than that, you’ll go insane “shouting into the wind” at all the others. There are many blocks to enlightenment; ignorance without awareness of such is the worse. Being blinded by one’s own feeling of success is another (not being aware of obvious shortcomings). If these ones had huge “real world” role models who spoke and trained regulary with them, they wouldn’t be so proud and misguided, and they would listen more. This is one of the biggest regrets I’ve had - being sheltered and only working out at home (with the only guidance being the internet).

You can only help those who want help, and if it seems like they want everything handed to them on a plate, they either are not suitable for bodybuilding, or they’re not at the right stage in their life yet.

Personally, I cringe at some of the things I’ve believed and firmly stood up for in the past…the bottom line is, it’s progress that counts (dropping things that don’t work, and keeping the stuff that does). But, I’d hate for the more experienced ones to give up on me as a “lost cause” just because I’ve fallen for some stupid training philosophies, or didn’t have the common sense to research thoroughly beforehand (due to eagerness to get a straight forward answer).

Sometimes I resent researching myself for fear of being mislead even more lol. It’s easy to be intrigued by someone else’s controversial recommendations and seeming success…although, right now, I’ve got to the stage where I can see through most of this stuff now.

130

I don’t know what this thread is even about any more.

Anyway, there’s some good articles about gaining weight on the elitefts site. The two things powerlifters excel at are getting strong and gaining weight. Here’s my personal favourite:

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/advanced_nutrition.htm

131

[quote]dankid wrote:
The OP’s quesion was a legitimate one.[/quote]

Nevertheless, it was one that he could’ve quite easily answered himself. I’m not criticizing him for asking, it’s just that in the time it took him to start this thread he could’ve researched it on his own, instead of sinking even deeper into the mire of uncertainty by wondering how much fat he should be gaining on a ‘typical’ bulking cycle. Why is he even concerned with that when he is unsure as to which foods should be eaten?

[quote]
But he asked the question and then refused to recognize the advice given.[/quote] Yes, and I acknowledged that in my last post: in fact, it was why I posted on this thread in the first place - your point is?[quote] Sure, he got a bunch of different answers. This is a public forum, and on this question there is NO one right answer. No text book is going to say that during a bulk chicken and lean meats are ok, but beef and pizza are not.[/quote]

He shouldn’t need a text book to tell him what to eat. It should really be a matter of common sense which foods are “off limits”: if he selects foods that allow him cover his personal nutritional requirements as quickly and as easily as possible, then he shouldn’t go far wrong. Far more sensible than the “eat everything in sight” approach.

It was painfully obvious from his initial posts, and from comments he made later, that he didn’t have the knowledge to embark on a bulk (not one that would end well, anyway). The signs were clearly there from the outset, so I shouldn’t have to point them out.

There is no justification for saying there is “no one right answer” when there clearly is in this instance: he needs to do some reading on nutrition before even considering anything else. Discussing his motivations for posting the question in the first place isn’t going to change that. He got the answer he needed. Whether or not he acts on the information is entirely up to him.

132

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]dankid wrote:
The OP’s quesion was a legitimate one.[/quote]

Nevertheless, it was one that he could’ve quite easily answered himself. I’m not criticizing him for asking, it’s just that in the time it took him to start this thread he could’ve researched it on his own, instead of sinking even deeper into the mire of uncertainty by wondering how much fat he should be gaining on a ‘typical’ bulking cycle. Why is he even concerned with that when he is unsure as to which foods should be eaten?

[quote]
But he asked the question and then refused to recognize the advice given.[/quote] Yes, and I acknowledged that in my last post: in fact, it was why I posted on this thread in the first place - your point is?[quote] Sure, he got a bunch of different answers. This is a public forum, and on this question there is NO one right answer. No text book is going to say that during a bulk chicken and lean meats are ok, but beef and pizza are not.[/quote]

He shouldn’t need a text book to tell him what to eat. It should really be a matter of common sense which foods are “off limits”: if he selects foods that allow him cover his personal nutritional requirements as quickly and as easily as possible, then he shouldn’t go far wrong. Far more sensible than the “eat everything in sight” approach.

It was painfully obvious from his initial posts, and from comments he made later, that he didn’t have the knowledge to embark on a bulk (not one that would end well, anyway). The signs were clearly there from the outset, so I shouldn’t have to point them out.

There is no justification for saying there is “no one right answer” when there clearly is in this instance: he needs to do some reading on nutrition before even considering anything else. Discussing his motivations for posting the question in the first place isn’t going to change that. He got the answer he needed. Whether or not he acts on the information is entirely up to him.[/quote]

I agree. THERE IS a right answer. Come to think of it, I don’t know why someone would go on an all-out bulk! To me, the word “all-out” means indiscriminate. Granted, if people don’t give a rat’s ass about how much fat they gain, they can eat any and whatever amounts of foods they want. I don’t know any sensible person would do this unless they had some real food issue (eg, morbid obesity secondary to an emotional disorder) or were gaining weight for sumo wrestling.

Most guys don’t turn to “dirty” foods until they reach a point where they’re consuming about 6,000+ calories and find it impossible to get that down with “clean” foods and/or don’t want to spend 75% of their days chewing, cooking, and cleaning! Dave Tate ate clean until he reached a point where he needed more than 6,000 calories to grow. And we’re talking about a VERY advanced, ergogenic-using, very serious, enormous man that often trains up to 6 times weekly.

For newbies, inexperienced in application AND EDUCATION, to follow the footsteps of enormous men that HAVE TO consume 1,000+ calorie value meals, is sheer folly. It’s safe to say that some of these buck-fifty newbies can gain on a measly 2,500 to 3,000 calories a day to start with, unless they have raging metabolisms and enormous workloads. Eating that amount with clean bodybuilding foods is a joke!

Then we have people on here asking what an acceptable muscle-fat gain ratio is, as if a sensible person can’t figure this out. Get this: if you look in the mirror and look fat, you are fat, and you’re eating too much. How’s that for a nugget of wisdom!

Another thing that some T-tards don’t understand is that the gifted men who can consume 6,000+ calories per day and not look sloppy are… (drum roll)… GIFTED! Yeah, that’s right. There are dudes who have a HARD TIME GETTING FAT, and at their worst, only look bloated, smooth, bulky, or whatever term you prefer. Look at a top-level amateur or pro in the offseason to see what I’m talking about.

Note: A 2,500 to 3,000 calorie diet can be put together on paper in less than 30 minutes after reading a basic nutrition book or article.

133

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]dankid wrote:
The OP’s quesion was a legitimate one.[/quote]

Nevertheless, it was one that he could’ve quite easily answered himself. I’m not criticizing him for asking, it’s just that in the time it took him to start this thread he could’ve researched it on his own, instead of sinking even deeper into the mire of uncertainty by wondering how much fat he should be gaining on a ‘typical’ bulking cycle. Why is he even concerned with that when he is unsure as to which foods should be eaten?

First, I think it is a little naive to think someone as big as Dave Tate actually gave a shit about [quote]eating clean until he reached a point where he needed more than 6,000 calories to grow[/quote]. Not only that, but I have done quite a few “all out bulks” and not once did I just eat without any thought as to what was being eaten. I just didn’t worry about the fat content or things of that nature because the overall calories took priority. Doing that was necessary for me to get to a certain weight…and honestly, I just don’t see anyone else making the same progress over the same amount of time. After nine years here, if any other method worked better for “extreme gains”, you would think we would be seeing some true behemoths walking around the forum claiming they look like that only thanks to chicken breasts and rolled oats.

I am writing this because you are making some pretty strong distinctions as far as what “bulking” is when it is beyond clear that you do not truly share the same goals of putting on large amounts of muscle as some of us.

At a body weight at or near 300lbs, good luck worrying about eating clean all of the time and making large gains unless you truly have the time to literally eat and cook all day long.

I do agree that some newbs need to learn the basic concept of eating FOR THEMSELVES instead of the current retarded act of simply picking some number out of their ass like “5,000” and thinking they need this amount regardless of whether it is too much or not enough for them.

However, sometimes that “all out bulk” is necessary to reach a certain goal.

And obviously there may be 10 people with the basic understanding and intensity when lifting and in the kitchen to do something like that without detrimental effects.

134

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]dankid wrote:
The OP’s quesion was a legitimate one.[/quote]

Nevertheless, it was one that he could’ve quite easily answered himself. I’m not criticizing him for asking, it’s just that in the time it took him to start this thread he could’ve researched it on his own, instead of sinking even deeper into the mire of uncertainty by wondering how much fat he should be gaining on a ‘typical’ bulking cycle. Why is he even concerned with that when he is unsure as to which foods should be eaten?

First, I think it is a little naive to think someone as big as Dave Tate actually gave a shit about [quote]eating clean until he reached a point where he needed more than 6,000 calories to grow[/quote]. Not only that, but I have done quite a few “all out bulks” and not once did I just eat without any thought as to what was being eaten. I just didn’t worry about the fat content or things of that nature because the overall calories took priority. Doing that was necessary for me to get to a certain weight…and honestly, I just don’t see anyone else making the same progress over the same amount of time. After nine years here, if any other method worked better for “extreme gains”, you would think we would be seeing some true behemoths walking around the forum claiming they look like that only thanks to chicken breasts and rolled oats.

I am writing this because you are making some pretty strong distinctions as far as what “bulking” is when it is beyond clear that you do not truly share the same goals of putting on large amounts of muscle as some of us.

At a body weight at or near 300lbs, good luck worrying about eating clean all of the time and making large gains unless you truly have the time to literally eat and cook all day long.

I do agree that some newbs need to learn the basic concept of eating FOR THEMSELVES instead of the current retarded act of simply picking some number out of their ass like “5,000” and thinking they need this amount regardless of whether it is too much or not enough for them.

However, sometimes that “all out bulk” is necessary to reach a certain goal.

And obviously there may be 10 people with the basic understanding and intensity when lifting and in the kitchen to do something like that without detrimental effects.[/quote]

That’s a good post, and I do agree. As I said before, although I don’t like repeating a hundred times, up until a year and half ago, I wanted to be fucking huge and reached 250 at 5’10". I trained from age 17 to 28 wanting to get fucking huge. And I didn’t go from 160 to 250 by eating clean all the time or eating paltry amounts of clean foods. I’d have 700 to 1,000 calorie meals regularly. I built my initial muscle mass without counting calories at all and following the most basic Bill Starr routines. My family thought I spent half my life until two years ago.

I’ve been a bodybuilding and powerlifting fanatic for a good portion of my life and lifted at some real hardcore gyms. I don’t say this to brag, but to show: “Yes, I understand what you mean. Eating and training like a madman is necessary to get fucking huge!”

But these guys pulling shit out of their ass aren’t even training at a level that requires ultra-calorie diets and don’t have MINIMAL dexterity in nutrition and second-grade math to gain weight without becoming fat.

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Its funny. Here we thought this thread was useless and that the “answers” were obvious, but the last few posted made it pretty obvious that THEY JUST DONT GET IT.

Bricknyce your thoughts on eating “clean” until you get to around 6000 kcals dont make much sense.

I used to think like you guys and the OP. I’d try the “clean bulks” and “cyclical diets” that many of the authors on the site claimed would help me achieve my goals. Supposedly I could slowly add muscle and maybe even lose fat at the same time, and all of the sudden after 12 weeks i’d have “transformed”… Well this never worked for me, and always left me stagnant.

Then I read a Dan John article, and some stuff on elitefts, and decided it was time to gain weight. NO MATTER WHAT. I dont count my calories, or worry about getting 400g of protein. I just eat as much as I can and train hard. And its working. Maybe Im weak, or lazy for having to resort to “dirty foods” at my current calorie levels. But id much rather take the lazy route that gets me results, then eat clean and be stuck with nothing.

The funny thing is, that when I started eating “dirty” i noticed my workouts got better, and I seemed leaner and more muscular. (This may be glycogen storage and water balance, but whatever)

The other thing I dont get, is what you think reading a nutrition book is going to tell you. Most of everything you read in there is going to be a waste of time, and the OP wouldn’t understand it anyways. He asked the question, and got a CLEAR answer. [during an ALL OUT bulk nothing is off limits] Then the question was implied that maybe he shouldn’t be on an all out bulk, etc. etc.

If you cant take straightforward advice, i dont know what good reading generic information in a textbook is going to do.

I cant believe im admiting this, but im with Prof X on this one. I can almost guarantee if you look at the biggest guys in the gym almost all of them dont worry about this crap. They lift weights and eat the food needed to support more muscle and bodyweight. There may be a few huge guys going around that live off of oatmeal, chicken breasts and broccoli, but probably no many. All the guys that are “eating clean” are the small guys that aren’t making much progress. Its the ‘big guy’ mentality that will get you, well, BIG.

***And bringing up Dave Tate is a bad example. He’s an extreme example, and if you look at what he’s done since he cleaned things up, he’s pretty lean now. I think he’s commented on this MANY times, but he doesn’t think he’d be where he is now, if he would have taken the “clean” path all along. And if you really think about it, look at how crazy his diet was, and how he actually looked. Combine that with the fact that powerlifting training is pretty high intensity and low volume (compared to bodybuilding) and you’ll see that eating “dirty” isn’t that bad of an idea, even up to how bad Dave Tate was doing it.

Now I feel like im talking into the wind…

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[quote]Professor X wrote:

I have done quite a few “all out bulks” and not once did I just eat without any thought as to what was being eaten. I just didn’t worry about the fat content or things of that nature because the overall calories took priority. [/quote]

The trouble is, so many guys have a morbid fear of consuming fat (which seems to be the top-hatted, mustache twirling villain) or food that they generally perceive as “unhealthy”. The list of excuses is endless: “I can’t possibly eat chicken with skin on!- talk about instant heart attack; surely my arteries will clog up on the spot”… or… “fast food? How dare you make such a suggestion - I’ll never fit into my prom dress”…

I’m sure you get the point…

Obviously, when people think on this level, their idea of an “all out bulk” is going to be vastly different than yours. They are wrong in their thinking, but there are many other factors at play here. For my part, I totally agree with your definition of what an all out bulk is: basically, eating what you have to eat in order to progress. At the same time,I also agree with Bricknyce when he says that beginners shouldn’t overshoot what, intially, should be very modest adjustments in diet (I’ve read the thread where the kid “got fat” by eating triple the amount of cals he needed).

I think we all agree on the basic principles: it’s just that "all out bulk " is such a loose term that you have to be mindful of who you are talking to when you use it (I suppose you could break it down to some people needing more ‘babysitting’ than others)…

I’m no psychologist, but I will say that part of a successful bulk is to learn to detach yourself emotionally from food. If you can’t do that, you’re not going to get very far…and that is going to be harder for some people than for others. Some dudes can’t even bring themselves to eat (shock!horror!) whole eggs!!. And there are entire threads dedicated to that little phobia.

Yes, phobias. Fear of clowns I can understand, but fear of food?! Yeah, it’s comical, but with the amount of anti-bulkers logging in recently, there has to be a kernel of truth there.

137

[quote]dankid wrote:
Its funny. Here we thought this thread was useless and that the “answers” were obvious, but the last few posted made it pretty obvious that THEY JUST DONT GET IT.

Bricknyce your thoughts on eating “clean” until you get to around 6000 kcals dont make much sense.

I used to think like you guys and the OP. I’d try the “clean bulks” and “cyclical diets” that many of the authors on the site claimed would help me achieve my goals. Supposedly I could slowly add muscle and maybe even lose fat at the same time, and all of the sudden after 12 weeks i’d have “transformed”… Well this never worked for me, and always left me stagnant.

Then I read a Dan John article, and some stuff on elitefts, and decided it was time to gain weight. NO MATTER WHAT. I dont count my calories, or worry about getting 400g of protein. I just eat as much as I can and train hard. And its working. Maybe Im weak, or lazy for having to resort to “dirty foods” at my current calorie levels. But id much rather take the lazy route that gets me results, then eat clean and be stuck with nothing.

The funny thing is, that when I started eating “dirty” i noticed my workouts got better, and I seemed leaner and more muscular. (This may be glycogen storage and water balance, but whatever)

The other thing I dont get, is what you think reading a nutrition book is going to tell you. Most of everything you read in there is going to be a waste of time, and the OP wouldn’t understand it anyways. He asked the question, and got a CLEAR answer. [during an ALL OUT bulk nothing is off limits] Then the question was implied that maybe he shouldn’t be on an all out bulk, etc. etc.

If you cant take straightforward advice, i dont know what good reading generic information in a textbook is going to do.

I cant believe im admiting this, but im with Prof X on this one. I can almost guarantee if you look at the biggest guys in the gym almost all of them dont worry about this crap. They lift weights and eat the food needed to support more muscle and bodyweight. There may be a few huge guys going around that live off of oatmeal, chicken breasts and broccoli, but probably no many. All the guys that are “eating clean” are the small guys that aren’t making much progress. Its the ‘big guy’ mentality that will get you, well, BIG.

***And bringing up Dave Tate is a bad example. He’s an extreme example, and if you look at what he’s done since he cleaned things up, he’s pretty lean now. I think he’s commented on this MANY times, but he doesn’t think he’d be where he is now, if he would have taken the “clean” path all along. And if you really think about it, look at how crazy his diet was, and how he actually looked. Combine that with the fact that powerlifting training is pretty high intensity and low volume (compared to bodybuilding) and you’ll see that eating “dirty” isn’t that bad of an idea, even up to how bad Dave Tate was doing it.[/quote]

It’s funny…you’re still an arrogant twat with an inability to properly read, understand and digest other peoples’ posts before responding.[quote]

Now I feel like im talking into the wind… [/quote]

I wish you were: at least then I wouldn’t have to listen to you. Feel free to take a leak mid-rant…

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[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

I have done quite a few “all out bulks” and not once did I just eat without any thought as to what was being eaten. I just didn’t worry about the fat content or things of that nature because the overall calories took priority. [/quote]

The trouble is, so many guys have a morbid fear of consuming fat (which seems to be the top-hatted, mustache twirling villain) or food that they generally perceive as “unhealthy”. The list of excuses is endless: “I can’t possibly eat chicken with skin on!- talk about instant heart attack”; surely my arteries will clog up on the spot"… or… “fast food? How dare you make such a suggestion - I’ll never fit into my prom dress”…

I’m sure you get the point…

Obviously, when people think on this level, their idea of an “all out bulk” is going to be vastly different than yours. They are wrong in their thinking, but there are many other factors at play here. For my part, I totally agree with your definition of what an all out bulk is: basically, eating what you have to eat in order to progress. At the same time,I also agree with Bricknyce when he says that beginners shouldn’t overshoot what, intially, should be very modest adjustments in diet (I’ve read the thread where the kid “got fat” by eating triple the amount of cals he needed).

I think we all agree on the basic principles: it’s just that "all out bulk " is such a loose term that you have to be mindful of who you are talking to when you use it.

I’m no psychologist, but I will say that part of a successful bulk is to learn to detach yourself emotionally from food. If you can’t do that, you’re not going to get very far…and that is going to be harder for some people than for others. Some dudes can’t even bring themselves to eat (shock!horror!) whole eggs!!. And there are entire threads dedicated to that little phobia.

Yes, phobias. Fear of clowns I can understand, but fear of food? Yeah, it’s funny, but with the amount of anti-bulkers logging in recently, there has to be a kernel of truth there.[/quote]

x2

I never really thought that a slow bulk was associated with eating clean (like dankid said), but there’s many deffinitions of “dirty”. Eating low fat is not “clean”, that’s just stupid. I don’t agree with only eating the so called healthy fats either, because saturated fats are more anabolic (which, appart from the higher fat intake, is one of the reasons why most bodybuilders grow bettter on a so called “dirty diet”).

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[quote]its_just_me wrote:

I never really thought that a slow bulk was associated with eating clean (like dankid said)
[/quote]

It usually is. For many, “eating clean” revolves around food choices that miraculously protect against heart attacks and ensure longevity, but are pretty darned pathetic when it comes to building muscle (trust me, I’ve been there - but luckily I grew out of that phase pretty quickly). It is called ‘a slow bulk’ for a very good reason…

In my experience, if somebody absolutely insists on 100 % clean bulking, then they either have unresolved issues with food (not necessarily an eating disorder, but a potential to develop one due to personal circumstances) or are too easily swayed by the opinions of others (usually girls, who are influenced by other girls and/or the media). In short, they are limiting themselves by letting other people dictate the path of their lives, instead of carving one out for themselves.

140

Did you fucking even read my last post in which I said that I didn’t get from 160 to 250 by eating fucking clean all the time? There have been times in my life where I ate four slices of pizza in a sitting and 1,000 calorie breakfasts!

And where did I say that one has to or should eat clean until they have to consume more than 6,000 calories! I said most people I know of that are really big ate clean until they required a certain amount of calories that would be exceedingly difficult to eat with a pristine diet of chicken, rice, and egg whites. I used 6,000 calories as an example. I don’t get this? Are you fucking kidding me? I’ve witnessed 700+ squats and 500+ pound benches in a gym and have friends and acquaintances that compete in powerlifting, bodybuilding, and Strongman. And they didn’t do all this by having a six-egg-whites-and-1-cup-oatmeal breakfast! I ate pizza and fast food with some of these guys IN THE GYM sometimes.

And bringing up Dave Tate ISN’T a bad example because he said himself that he ate clean until he had to eat over 6,000 calories! Yeah, most men have to resort to changing their diets around when they have to take in huge amounts of food because they don’t feel like preparing and chewing all day. But there are a few who kept it crispy clean, even with a high caloric need. Mike Francois hated junk and fast food but still consumed 10,000 calories and I don’t see any reason to disbelieve him. Same goes for Dorian; his offseason diet was 6,000 to 7,000 calories and he wrote on it several times, with exact measurements and food items. Glen Chabot ate 10,000 calories during his prime, but granted, he ate 12 eggs and 12 slices of American cheese at a sitting, not “dirty” food in my book.

And most people with half a brain know that low-fat diets suck for getting because a) first and foremost, they’re UNHEALTHY (the health benefits of fats are lost), b) they’re unsatisfying, and c) it’s hard to consume fill a high caloric need with them! So this is where the word “dirty” becomes ambiguous. You can get 950 calories from two peanut butter sandwiches (two slices whole-grain bread and 2 tbspns apiece) and a 12 oz glass of skim milk. Is that a high calorie meal? Yes. Is it dirty? NO! I used to make a 1,000+ calorie breakfast with whole eggs, cheese, turkey bacon, oatmeal, and a glass of skim milk. Still not dirty! I think dirty should apply to shit like candy, potato chips, white pretzels, basically foods that are nearly worthless!