Anyone Tried CW's TBT Workout?

Training Bodybuilding
141

[quote]Vanilla-Gorilla wrote:
“Thank you, I trained mostly bodypart split when I was younger, sets of 8-10 i guess just typical routine… I dabbled in powerlifting from 16-18 yrs and then found T-Nation oh so long ago… I was 260 lbs at 18, 46 inch waist but decent muscle under the fat… always a big kid, got picked on for being fat yada yada…I just liked to lift as heavy as possible back then… I remember piling 14 plates a side on the leg press and trying to do the stack on all the machines, typical teenager stuff haha”

Just found this post from Peteman. Trextacy, look at how he trained when he was younger.[/quote]

I think most of us would have guessed that just by looking at him. Why? Because we sure as hell aren’t seeing growth like that on people doing TBT from day one.

Using some guy who throws it in every once in a while after over a decade of using splits to get huge as a poster boy for TBT is just false advertisement.

That is on the same level as people who think Markus Rhul’s use of NO supplements is why his arms are that big.

One thing I hope was brought to light in this thread is that numbers alone don’t give you much insight at all into how someone has actually developed in terms of bodybuilding. Just because two people gained the same number of pounds, it doesn’t mean they made the exact same progress.

Now we just need to destroy this idea that you somehow get “stronger” using TBT…as if those of us using a split routine are weaker than everyone else.

142

[quote]DJS wrote:
Ah yes… Peteman. He is a very helpful guy. He has also experimented a lot with the Anabolic Diet. I wouldn’t go around saying that he is the poster boy for the Anabolic Diet though. The man has obiously been through many phases of his training career. [/quote]

…including bulking up apparently but I guess that is another thread topic.

143

[quote]Professor X wrote:
DJS wrote:
Ah yes… Peteman. He is a very helpful guy. He has also experimented a lot with the Anabolic Diet. I wouldn’t go around saying that he is the poster boy for the Anabolic Diet though. The man has obiously been through many phases of his training career.

…including bulking up apparently but I guess that is another thread topic.[/quote]

Oh…I think most of us know these two topics go hand-in-hand.

144

[quote]trextacy wrote:
jehovasfitness wrote:
trextacy wrote:
jehovasfitness wrote:
trextacy wrote:
natty that uses Waterbury programs for size
http://tnation.tmuscle.com/free_online_forum/pictures_pics_photo_body_rate_image_performance/8_weeks_out_1

well hell, I could find a diamond if I looked in enough piles of shit

well, the board ass-kisser has spoken.

ass kisser? least I didn’t get my ass handed to me by BR, j/k lighten up

I got my ass handed to me because Bill can’t read my posts and is resorting to adolescent name-calling, or because he said “fuck you” and you giggled and agreed? oh, you have Biotest supplements as your avatar…JUST KIDDING!!

My 2 points were: (1) Plenty of people have added lots of muscle with basic full body programs. Beginners to intermediates could use them to great effect without ever using a Waterbury program; and (2) the backlash against all full-body programs on this board is directly the result of CW getting under people’s skins by taking some shots at pro bb-ers a few years ago.

[/quote]

You still don’t grasp that saying to a person “if you were honest” is insulting and fully meriting of a “fuck you” ?

Perhaps you are not bright enough to understand subjunctive tense. (Which is what you employed.) It has the meaning that a thing is not true, but if it were true then…

When you tell a person “If you were honest” this is saying that he is not honest.

So either the problem is you were intelligent enough to know what you were saying and were being deliberately highly insulting for no reason, or you were too stupid to know what you were saying. Either way, your posts in question have been less than useless.

145

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
trextacy wrote:
jehovasfitness wrote:
trextacy wrote:
jehovasfitness wrote:
trextacy wrote:
natty that uses Waterbury programs for size

well hell, I could find a diamond if I looked in enough piles of shit

well, the board ass-kisser has spoken.

ass kisser? least I didn’t get my ass handed to me by BR, j/k lighten up

I got my ass handed to me because Bill can’t read my posts and is resorting to adolescent name-calling, or because he said “fuck you” and you giggled and agreed? oh, you have Biotest supplements as your avatar…JUST KIDDING!!

My 2 points were: (1) Plenty of people have added lots of muscle with basic full body programs. Beginners to intermediates could use them to great effect without ever using a Waterbury program; and (2) the backlash against all full-body programs on this board is directly the result of CW getting under people’s skins by taking some shots at pro bb-ers a few years ago.

You still don’t grasp that saying to a person “if you were honest” is insulting and fully meriting of a “fuck you” ?

Perhaps you are not bright enough to understand subjunctive tense. (Which is what you employed.) It has the meaning that a thing is not true, but if it were true then…

When you tell a person “If you were honest” this is saying that he is not honest.

So either the problem is you were intelligent enough to know what you were saying and were being deliberately highly insulting for no reason, or you were too stupid to know what you were saying. Either way, your posts in question have been less than useless.[/quote]

you are being more than a little overly sensitive, don’t you think? esp. since you yourself are more than happy/eager to hurl insults at people.

to latch on to a lead-in to one sentence in a post like “if you were honest” to justify your unprofessionalism in light of ALL the shit-talking in this forum and other threads is insincere. you just don’t like my point of view (for whatever reason), and it has nothing to do with this manufactured grievance against me for saying “if you were honest”. it’s a common enough expression.

anyways, the substance of my posts stand and are far from useless, regardless what you say. it really just sounds like you are being defensive, as many self-identifying “hardcore” guys like yourself do to any perceived slight against “pros” or “assisted trainers”.

you doth protesteth too much.

in any event, no matter what you say, there are good full body approaches for adding lots of muscle and the backlash on this forum against anything other than “traditional” bodybuilding training is sad.

146

[quote]trextacy wrote:
just an example of someone using full body programs for certain goals at certain times in a bodybuilding context. i’m not saying they are optimum at all times for all people, i’m just saying that to throw them out the door as completely incompatible with bodybuilding or only useful for the first 2 months of training is foolish.

and yes, he’s been training a while, which could also be read as showing that full body programs can be used by advanced guys, and he clearly knows his body at this point so it lends the idea even more creedence.

i just had that guy’s thread bookmarked because he’s natural (i don’t care if others are assisted, i just prefer natural myself) and he’s clearly at the tip of his genetic potential. natrual guys at the highest levels usually need to do things a bit differently than guys at the highest levels who are on gear. again, not saying anyone works harder than any one else, just that different strategies have different effects in an assisted vs unassisted person.

also, if i recall, from ACTrain’s thread he said that he made his best progress when he used a crazy full body program that had tons of volume and frequency. lots of ways to skin the cat.

and again, all the guys who have used madcow (and similar 5x5 programs) to put on their base of muscle and build their strength would dispute the premise that bodybuilding can’t involve training the entire body in a session.

[/quote]

bump because this appeared earlier than Prof X and some other responses to the Peteman issue even though (I thought) I posted it after.

Anyways, Prof-bear with me here: you can’t say an advanced trainee that is using a full body program for bulkng is irrelevant just because the guy used splits earlier. if he’s had success (and he has) and has tried both and has found that full body works best for him, then some credit to that approach should be given.

if he were advanced and said “i use splits now but i used full body when i was a beginner” you would then just say “see, they make work for a rank beginner, but ulimtately splits are superior”.

it seems that even if someone has used (or is using) any sort of approach like that, their results will be disregarded for one reason or another.

147

[quote]trextacy wrote:
you doth protesteth too much.

[/quote]

Hahahahahaha. This guy is obviously a troll or a moron. Just leave him alone

148

[quote]Husker11 wrote:
trextacy wrote:
you doth protesteth too much.

Hahahahahaha. This guy is obviously a troll or a moron. Just leave him alone[/quote]

Join Date: April 2009
Posts: 2

149

Bill, this is similar shit to when people start a sentence with “honestly…”. So what is this person implying? That under most circumstances, they’re not honest. Perhaps they are, and that’s only how some people speak; but it’s a shitty way of communicating.

Trex, I know that you and I are on good terms but I am completely confused as to why you choose to beat a dead horse. All of the greats, natural and enhanced, for more than the past 4 decades, have been using split routines! I don’t see why one would even bother discussing what’s an appropriate or inappropriate way of training for these men. The proof is in the pudding.

And as I said before, that do-a-little-for-a-muscle-group-more-frequently approach is flawed for bodypart training. When you train 2 to 3 muscle groups per session, as in split-routine training, you have the energy to induce a lot of trauma in each muscle.

If you train 6 to 8 muscles in a workout, the ones in the middle to end of the workout are ALWAYS receiving a less than optimal stimulus. How the fuck is anyone going to hit their bis properly after squats and/or deadlifts, chinups and/or rows, bench pressing, and military pressing. You’re wiped out at that point.

Besides, that argument also doesn’t hold much weight because if you hit each muscle with low frequency (every 5 to 7 days) BUT with sufficient volume and cause a lot of trauma, you WILL NEED 5 to 7 days to recover!

TBT HAS built muscle; but it is NOT the way to train to win bodybuilding contests or to look like a bodybuilder.

Again, what’s your argument for?

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
trextacy wrote:
jehovasfitness wrote:
trextacy wrote:
jehovasfitness wrote:
trextacy wrote:
natty that uses Waterbury programs for size
http://tnation.tmuscle.com/free_online_forum/pictures_pics_photo_body_rate_image_performance/8_weeks_out_1

well hell, I could find a diamond if I looked in enough piles of shit

well, the board ass-kisser has spoken.

ass kisser? least I didn’t get my ass handed to me by BR, j/k lighten up

I got my ass handed to me because Bill can’t read my posts and is resorting to adolescent name-calling, or because he said “fuck you” and you giggled and agreed? oh, you have Biotest supplements as your avatar…JUST KIDDING!!

My 2 points were: (1) Plenty of people have added lots of muscle with basic full body programs. Beginners to intermediates could use them to great effect without ever using a Waterbury program; and (2) the backlash against all full-body programs on this board is directly the result of CW getting under people’s skins by taking some shots at pro bb-ers a few years ago.

You still don’t grasp that saying to a person “if you were honest” is insulting and fully meriting of a “fuck you” ?

Perhaps you are not bright enough to understand subjunctive tense. (Which is what you employed.) It has the meaning that a thing is not true, but if it were true then…

When you tell a person “If you were honest” this is saying that he is not honest.

So either the problem is you were intelligent enough to know what you were saying and were being deliberately highly insulting for no reason, or you were too stupid to know what you were saying. Either way, your posts in question have been less than useless.[/quote]

150

My point is that full body programs like Madcow have a place in bodybuilding and when a newb (or intermediate) guy comes on here with questions, it’s okay to guide them in the direction of a program like 5x5. Or if an intermediate guy has been on a high volume split, but he is stalling out on his lifts and the scale isn’t moving, recommending jacking up the calories and a 2-month run at a basic full body program may be just the ticket.

The backlash against some legitimate strength/mass programs just because they are set up to involve the “total” or “full” body in a session is bullshit, and says more about the agenda and axe-grinding of the posters than it does help out the poster.

And just because you are “tired” at the end of a full body workout and may not be fresh for a movement doesn’t mean anything- your last back exercise on back day is going to be shittier than the first 3 were, just like your last exercise of military press is going to be if you’ve done squats and rows before it. It’s just the way it is and doesn’t invalidate the whole approach. Just do them in revserse order the next time, or take sufficient rest.

And again, nothing “lags” if you train it- there is nothing that has to per se be ignored in a full body approach.

Finally, bodybuilding is a loose term- if I’m cutting and want to use supersets and take a more metabollic approach, then a full body program with supersets 3-days per week may suit my goals.

I’m frankly tired of this debate.

151

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:

TBT HAS built muscle; but it is NOT the way to train to win bodybuilding contests or to look like a bodybuilder.
[/quote]

I can agree with this. That settles it in my opinion.

152

[quote]trextacy wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
trextacy wrote:
jehovasfitness wrote:
trextacy wrote:
jehovasfitness wrote:
trextacy wrote:
natty that uses Waterbury programs for size

well hell, I could find a diamond if I looked in enough piles of shit

well, the board ass-kisser has spoken.

ass kisser? least I didn’t get my ass handed to me by BR, j/k lighten up

I got my ass handed to me because Bill can’t read my posts and is resorting to adolescent name-calling, or because he said “fuck you” and you giggled and agreed? oh, you have Biotest supplements as your avatar…JUST KIDDING!!

My 2 points were: (1) Plenty of people have added lots of muscle with basic full body programs. Beginners to intermediates could use them to great effect without ever using a Waterbury program; and (2) the backlash against all full-body programs on this board is directly the result of CW getting under people’s skins by taking some shots at pro bb-ers a few years ago.

You still don’t grasp that saying to a person “if you were honest” is insulting and fully meriting of a “fuck you” ?

Perhaps you are not bright enough to understand subjunctive tense. (Which is what you employed.) It has the meaning that a thing is not true, but if it were true then…

When you tell a person “If you were honest” this is saying that he is not honest.

So either the problem is you were intelligent enough to know what you were saying and were being deliberately highly insulting for no reason, or you were too stupid to know what you were saying. Either way, your posts in question have been less than useless.

you are being more than a little overly sensitive, don’t you think? esp. since you yourself are more than happy/eager to hurl insults at people.[/quote]

Unlike you, I do it only when earned, as in your case for example.

Also unlike you, if I insult someone out of nowhere – my having said nothing insulting to them – and their response is “Fuck you” and nothing more, I don’t go whining about how, supposedly, they are “overly sensitive.”

You got what you deserved. End of story. Goodbye.

153

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
trextacy wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
trextacy wrote:
jehovasfitness wrote:
trextacy wrote:
jehovasfitness wrote:
trextacy wrote:
natty that uses Waterbury programs for size

well hell, I could find a diamond if I looked in enough piles of shit

well, the board ass-kisser has spoken.

ass kisser? least I didn’t get my ass handed to me by BR, j/k lighten up

I got my ass handed to me because Bill can’t read my posts and is resorting to adolescent name-calling, or because he said “fuck you” and you giggled and agreed? oh, you have Biotest supplements as your avatar…JUST KIDDING!!

My 2 points were: (1) Plenty of people have added lots of muscle with basic full body programs. Beginners to intermediates could use them to great effect without ever using a Waterbury program; and (2) the backlash against all full-body programs on this board is directly the result of CW getting under people’s skins by taking some shots at pro bb-ers a few years ago.

You still don’t grasp that saying to a person “if you were honest” is insulting and fully meriting of a “fuck you” ?

Perhaps you are not bright enough to understand subjunctive tense. (Which is what you employed.) It has the meaning that a thing is not true, but if it were true then…

When you tell a person “If you were honest” this is saying that he is not honest.

So either the problem is you were intelligent enough to know what you were saying and were being deliberately highly insulting for no reason, or you were too stupid to know what you were saying. Either way, your posts in question have been less than useless.

you are being more than a little overly sensitive, don’t you think? esp. since you yourself are more than happy/eager to hurl insults at people.

Unlike you, I do it only when earned, as in your case for example.

Also unlike you, if I insult someone out of nowhere – my having said nothing insulting to them – and their response is “Fuck you” and nothing more, I don’t go whining about how, supposedly, they are “overly sensitive.”

You got what you deserved. End of story. Goodbye.[/quote]

Didn’t whine about it- just called you unprofessional, which you are since you are (amazingly) employed by Biotest. Oh, and I didn’t “earn” shit, just made a point you didn’t like and used an expression that you labored to interpret as an insult.

“You got what you deserved”-- wow way to take this shit way too seriously.

154

Trex, you said:

“And just because you are “tired” at the end of a full body workout and may not be fresh for a movement doesn’t mean anything- your last back exercise on back day is going to be shittier than the first 3 were, just like your last exercise of military press is going to be if you’ve done squats and rows before it. It’s just the way it is and doesn’t invalidate the whole approach. Just do them in revserse order the next time, or take sufficient rest.”

Fatigue during a workout doesn’t mean anything? Are you fucking kidding me? It’s not just a matter of being mentally and physically “tired” (why that’s in quotes, I don’t know); it’s a matter of INABILITY to perform optimally for a muscle group or exercise, regardless of feeling tired. And this sort of inability IS important to note for bodybuilding! You can’t keep training muscles in a fatigued state in the middle or end of a TBT session. Is this even wise to do if you want optimal development in every muscle?

I did NOT say that the fatigue incurred from a whole-body workout defeats the method; I, myself, now follow a TBT routine because of my current goals. But I DON’T deny the flaws in this approach FOR BODYBUILDING!

Nothing lags in a routine? Again, are you kidding me?! ALL routines are FLAWED! A muscle group trained later in a session is always going to receive less damage than one trained in the beginning of a workout. Refer to an Ian King or Alwyn Cosgrove article or book or even a freaking interview with Dorian Yates in which they talk about this.

155

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Trex, you said:

“And just because you are “tired” at the end of a full body workout and may not be fresh for a movement doesn’t mean anything- your last back exercise on back day is going to be shittier than the first 3 were, just like your last exercise of military press is going to be if you’ve done squats and rows before it. It’s just the way it is and doesn’t invalidate the whole approach. Just do them in revserse order the next time, or take sufficient rest.”

Fatigue during a workout doesn’t mean anything? Are you fucking kidding me? It’s not just a matter of being mentally and physically “tired” (why that’s in quotes, I don’t know); it’s a matter of INABILITY to perform optimally for a muscle group or exercise, regardless of feeling tired. And this sort of inability IS important to note for bodybuilding! You can’t keep training muscles in a fatigued state in the middle or end of a TBT session. Is this even wise to do if you want optimal development in every muscle?

I did NOT say that the fatigue incurred from a whole-body workout defeats the method; I, myself, now follow a TBT routine because of my current goals. But I DON’T deny the flaws in this approach FOR BODYBUILDING!

Nothing lags in a routine? Again, are you kidding me?! ALL routines are FLAWED! A muscle group trained later in a session is always going to receive less damage than one trained in the beginning of a workout. Refer to an Ian King or Alwyn Cosgrove article or book or even a freaking interview with Dorian Yates in which they talk about this. [/quote]

Dude, settle down.

I’m just addressing criticisms and saying they are overblow. 2 common knocks on ALL full body workouts are that (a) you are too tired at the end to hit a muscle group (even though you haven’t necessarily worked THAT group yet) and (b) certain bodyparts will lag.

What I’m saying is that

(a) intensity and strength begin to wane at the end of any workout that is intense, whether it’s a split or a full body program, so that criticism may be a potential “con” of a FB approach but it’s not some insurmountable thing, and it can apply to splits as well. If I have 1 back exercise left to do, and I’m doing a split, then I would suggest that my performance on that exercise would be shittier than if I had 1 exercise left to do on a FB routine and that exercise was a back exercise. Yes, my CNS is fatigued as shit at that point, but my back muscles aren’t, so my performance should still be sufficient to stimulate the back.

(b) muscles can lag on any program, and if you are lagging on a split or FB you can address that. to say FB sucks because bodyparts will lag is a strawman.

156

blah blah blah…blahblah…blah blah blah blah…blah

157

[quote]trextacy wrote:
Bricknyce wrote:
Trex, you said:

“And just because you are “tired” at the end of a full body workout and may not be fresh for a movement doesn’t mean anything- your last back exercise on back day is going to be shittier than the first 3 were, just like your last exercise of military press is going to be if you’ve done squats and rows before it. It’s just the way it is and doesn’t invalidate the whole approach. Just do them in revserse order the next time, or take sufficient rest.”

Fatigue during a workout doesn’t mean anything? Are you fucking kidding me? It’s not just a matter of being mentally and physically “tired” (why that’s in quotes, I don’t know); it’s a matter of INABILITY to perform optimally for a muscle group or exercise, regardless of feeling tired. And this sort of inability IS important to note for bodybuilding! You can’t keep training muscles in a fatigued state in the middle or end of a TBT session. Is this even wise to do if you want optimal development in every muscle?

I did NOT say that the fatigue incurred from a whole-body workout defeats the method; I, myself, now follow a TBT routine because of my current goals. But I DON’T deny the flaws in this approach FOR BODYBUILDING!

Nothing lags in a routine? Again, are you kidding me?! ALL routines are FLAWED! A muscle group trained later in a session is always going to receive less damage than one trained in the beginning of a workout. Refer to an Ian King or Alwyn Cosgrove article or book or even a freaking interview with Dorian Yates in which they talk about this.

Dude, settle down.

I’m just addressing criticisms and saying they are overblow. 2 common knocks on ALL full body workouts are that (a) you are too tired at the end to hit a muscle group (even though you haven’t necessarily worked THAT group yet) and (b) certain bodyparts will lag.

What I’m saying is that

(a) intensity and strength begin to wane at the end of any workout that is intense, whether it’s a split or a full body program, so that criticism may be a potential “con” of a FB approach but it’s not some insurmountable thing, and it can apply to splits as well. If I have 1 back exercise left to do, and I’m doing a split, then I would suggest that my performance on that exercise would be shittier than if I had 1 exercise left to do on a FB routine and that exercise was a back exercise. Yes, my CNS is fatigued as shit at that point, but my back muscles aren’t, so my performance should still be sufficient to stimulate the back.

(b) muscles can lag on any program, and if you are lagging on a split or FB you can address that. to say FB sucks because bodyparts will lag is a strawman.[/quote]

This is retarded. Seriously. I train one body part a day so how is any other muscle group being affected by less intensity? That is WHY I train one body part a day, because the bigger you get and the stronger you get, the more work an individual muscle group is getting and any second or third muscle group in that session WILL be trained with less intensity assuming the first one was trained balls to the wall in the first place. If you are even denying this then I seriously doubt your own intensity in the gym AND your own progress. If you aren’t wiped out by the end of your workout, then how hard are you really training?

How is body parts lagging a strawman when the majority of the guys we see on this site who post pics that started on TBT now have lagging lateral delts and biceps?

On a split routine, you prioritize any lagging muscle group so this is covered in the logic of the program. The majority of the newbies posting here seem to be under the impression that direct arm work is somehow a sissy exercise routine that should be avoided. You can claim biceps can be added in as an after thought all you want to, but the reality is most of these guys are under the impression that it should be downplayed or avoided entirely.

158

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
Bricknyce wrote:

TBT HAS built muscle; but it is NOT the way to train to win bodybuilding contests or to look like a bodybuilder.

I can agree with this. That settles it in my opinion.[/quote]

I really don’t see why every thread that pops up like this can’t be answered by this reasoning.

159

[quote]WS4JB wrote:
waylanderxx wrote:
Bricknyce wrote:

TBT HAS built muscle; but it is NOT the way to train to win bodybuilding contests or to look like a bodybuilder.

I can agree with this. That settles it in my opinion.

I really don’t see why every thread that pops up like this can’t be answered by this reasoning. [/quote]

IMO this is the main reason why more and more threads on the bodybuilding forum are sucking. I have trained two big muscle groups on the same session just ONCE in my life (chest and back), lack of intensity was the only reason I’d put no more than 1 big muscle group & 1 small at the most. SHIT, I’m complaining right now because I’m correcting my shoulders and can’t do heavy shrugs (as heavy) after doing shoulders.

160

Maybe there should be a TBT forum.

Seriously.

Those who use TBT genuinely for strength sports (and other sports) can certainly continue using Strength Sports for that purpose. That fits in perfectly – I don’t mean of course as the only way but as a way that depending on the case can be entirely sensible for the sport and also is completely respected on the forum, and a poster will not be subject to his basic premise being questioned. For example one can hardly train Olympic lifts seriously without training the body pretty much in full on the same day.

Or for other sports, if your playing schedule is quite frequent it may not be optimal to, this game, have wiped out your chest and triceps the day before; the next game, your back and biceps were bombed the day before; etc. “Sorry coach, I can’t pitch today: yesterday was shoulders day.” Better to be consistent.

But those that want to pursue TBT and it is not for sports but for enhanced size and muscular appearance, uh, it is not fitting very well into Bodybuilding. Probably they and everyone else would have smoother communication if TBT had its own place.