Anyone Tried CW's TBT Workout?

Training Bodybuilding
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[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Maybe there should be a TBT forum.

Seriously.

Those who use TBT genuinely for strength sports (and other sports) can certainly continue using Strength Sports for that purpose. That fits in perfectly – I don’t mean of course as the only way but as a way that depending on the case can be entirely sensible for the sport and also is completely respected on the forum, and a poster will not be subject to his basic premise being questioned. For example one can hardly train Olympic lifts seriously without training the body pretty much in full on the same day.

Or for other sports, if your playing schedule is quite frequent it may not be optimal to, this game, have wiped out your chest and triceps the day before; the next game, your back and biceps were bombed the day before; etc. “Sorry coach, I can’t pitch today: yesterday was shoulders day.” Better to be consistent.

But those that want to pursue TBT and it is not for sports but for enhanced size and muscular appearance, uh, it is not fitting very well into Bodybuilding. Probably they and everyone else would have smoother communication if TBT had its own place.[/quote]

I agree, they should be exiled.

lol jk

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Oh, I don’t mean they can’t post – for example questions and discussions on how to do given exercises, or dealing with injuries, or all sorts of things remain in common.

But for discussion having specifically to do with it being TBT, and a very correct answer to the stated goals being DON’T DO THAT if you want the best chance of success towards your goals, why not have a place where it’s taken for granted that TBT is the way, in that place?

Then they could post their arm-less routines and so forth without fear of being straightened out on it, without those who train the way that’s proven to work far better for arms (and other things) having to waste their time making that point for the 10,000th time, and get the answers they want, which is, limited to what they already agree with.

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[quote]Professor X wrote:

On a split routine, you prioritize any lagging muscle group so this is covered in the logic of the program. [/quote]

I have a question about that:

If you’re lookin at a 5 day split and you know, for instance, that your back is lagging compared to your chest or whatever, how can you prioritize it any more, given that it already has it’s own day devoted to it?

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[quote]JCS19Y wrote:
Professor X wrote:

On a split routine, you prioritize any lagging muscle group so this is covered in the logic of the program.

I have a question about that:

If you’re lookin at a 5 day split and you know, for instance, that your back is lagging compared to your chest or whatever, how can you prioritize it any more, given that it already has it’s own day devoted to it?[/quote]

By usually training it twice a week. Do you all just ignore the discussions going on around here?

It isn’t like this hasn’t come up before.

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Well well, what a fascinating thread this one has turned out to be.

Time to join the fun.

If I can summarize the overall them (apart from the various insults flying around), this is basically about full body vs split sessions for bodybuilding.

Here goes,

Full body workouts are commonly used in the scientific literature to elicit acute overreaching. Physiologically, this has been shown to manifest as decreases in 1RM’s and basal testosterone levels within ONE WEEK of starting this type of program. Usually this is a 4-5 day on, 2 days off weekly cycle.

What has been shown is that if you absolutely get your nutrition right, I mean absolutely perfect every day (when the researchers were exactly controlling the doses), they tended to offset the overreaching and allowed a normal progression of strength and maintenance of basal testosterone levels. Generally the individuals who have appropriate supplementation with this type of program achieved greater gains in lean body mass than individuals who just did this type of training.

In general most researches use a conventional split style program to measure neuroendocrine responses and peripheral adaptations to resistance exercise. So what about full body training?

The problem is that you just need to get everything absolutely perfect. There is so much room for error with this type of training that for the majority of individuals, it just doesn’t seem to work.

As always, someone always moans about being a bookworm, so what have I found.

Full body training works fine for a total newB who is training 3 days per week, with aerobic sessions on other days. Generally this works well up to about 6-8 weeks of regular (keyword there) resistance adherence.

Then you need to start considering introducing a newB to split training routines to boost training volumes and intensities.

Full body with more advanced people? I’ve prescribed it to see what happens, but again there is so much room for error that usually people make rapid gains (as with any new program when you change things up), but within about 2 weeks things plateau just far too quickly in comparison to using split programs (see the things above about the problems identified with this type of training).

Personally, when I decided to try out this style of training I found it to be an absolute drag.

Ok, I’m done. Flame away…

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[quote]JCS19Y wrote:
Professor X wrote:

On a split routine, you prioritize any lagging muscle group so this is covered in the logic of the program.

I have a question about that:

If you’re lookin at a 5 day split and you know, for instance, that your back is lagging compared to your chest or whatever, how can you prioritize it any more, given that it already has it’s own day devoted to it?[/quote]

Check out Thibs HSS-100 Back article, shows a good way to split up your training to prioritize your back.

167

[quote]Professor X wrote:

By usually training it twice a week. Do you all just ignore the discussions going on around here?

It isn’t like this hasn’t come up before.
[/quote]

Hey, sorry for asking a relevant question. I’ll keep my obvious and blatant ignorance to myself next time.

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[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I’m not reading most of this thread because I’m sure Prof turned it into this fucking debate, again.

But to the OP- I had very good gains using TBT. For some reason I respond well to three whole body workouts- been that way since high school. My best gains were on my old football coach’s three-day a week program, and on TBT.

I’m actually going to throw it in again because the upper-lower split I’ve been using is getting stale. Try it for yourself and see.[/quote]

You may need to update the stats in your profile then. How much progress have you made?

It is interesting when people write about “very good gains” but never give specifics.

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[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
I’m not reading most of this thread because I’m sure Prof turned it into this fucking debate, again.

But to the OP- I had very good gains using TBT. For some reason I respond well to three whole body workouts- been that way since high school. My best gains were on my old football coach’s three-day a week program, and on TBT.

I’m actually going to throw it in again because the upper-lower split I’ve been using is getting stale. Try it for yourself and see.

You may need to update the stats in your profile then. How much progress have you made?

It is interesting when people write about “very good gains” but never give specifics.

A three day a week, full body program is what took me from the weight of 135 (when I was 18) to the 180 I am now at 25. I don’t train with size in mind much anymore, but when I was actively trying to gain muscle and put on weight it’s what I had the best results with. Is that alright with you?

It’s also interesting when you ignore all results that anyone has ever had with a program because it doesn’t fit your mold of what “works.” While I won’t say that the program would be the best if you’re trying to get as large and symmetrical as a bodybuilder, I don’t think that automatically means that the program is worthless. Maybe it is to you. Maybe no one else gives a shit though.

[/quote]

No one has said it is worthless. In fact, we have CLEARLY STATED several times now it is less effective in ACTUALLY LOOKING LIKE A BODYBUILDER. No one has said that you can not gain muscle at all.

No one is ignoring results. In fact we are asking for PICTURES so we can see those results…yet every one of you posting those pics ends up showing lagging body parts or a physique that doesn’t look quite as filled out as those who follow more traditional methods in gaining that initial base of muscle mass (which is where you are now).

This is a BODYBUILDING FORUM. The goal is NOT to simply gain “some muscle”. It is to look the part.

That makes your entire last paragraph here a strawman.

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[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Professor X wrote:

No one has said it is worthless. In fact, we have CLEARLY STATED several times now it is less effective in ACTUALLY LOOKING LIKE A BODYBUILDER. No one has said that you can not gain muscle at all.

No one is ignoring results. In fact we are asking for PICTURES so we can see those results…yet every one of you posting those pics ends up showing lagging body parts or a physique that doesn’t look quite as filled out as those who follow more traditional methods in gaining that initial base of muscle mass (which is where you are now).

I’m not denying that. And I do agree with you that there are some fundamental flaws in that program if someone’s goal is to put on symmetrical size, specifically because of the lack of delt/arm work. There ain’t much trap work in there either. I get it.

But the manner that you attack it in can lead people to believe that it’s useless and shouldn’t be looked at just because the mighty X said so. That ain’t right, especially for people who are athletes that can benefit very much from a lifting program that only takes you 3 hours a week and gets major lifts in, but leaves you enough time to do cardio and skill work.

That’s my issue.

This is a BODYBUILDING FORUM. The goal is NOT to simply gain “some muscle”. It is to look the part.

That makes your entire last paragraph here a strawman.

Please man. You’d have posted all your crap in any forum it was posted on in this site.[/quote]

WTF?

THIS IS A BODYBUILDING FORUM. No one is going into the strength sports forum and telling people how to train for bodybuilding, so why the FUCK do you and those like you come here to defend TBT to people when the goal should be BODYBUILDING in the first place?

That is why your “results” will get questioned. That is why I know we will never see a picture of you. Because while you love to talk about how it “works”, I am betting most people aren’t stopping you in the street asking if you play for the local NFL team.

If your goal is “athletic performance”, then first I would hope you actually play a sport in a professional manner or at least at collegiate or even high school level…and second, I would hope you wouldn’t be in a bodybuilding forum telling bodybuilders how to look like bodybuilders.

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[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

Oh shove it up your ass you nasty cunt.

I don’t come on here telling anyone how to do anything about bodybuilding. I said it was good for those who have other athletic endeavors, like those of us who don’t come out of the combat sports forum because crap like this goes on.[/quote]

What? Who from the bodybuilding forum is invading the combat sports forum to discuss how everyone should train like a bodybuilder? Who is in the strength sports forum doing the same? yet we get TONS of you idiots in THIS forum when you all claim your goal equals, [quote]I have other priorities now that make me want to stay around the weight I’m at. Maybe even (gasp) a little bit less.
[/quote] as if anyone here is supposed to give a shit.

The question is, how does this make any fucking sense to any of you?

[quote]

You’re right- I ain’t huge. I’m not aiming to be; I have other priorities now that make me want to stay around the weight I’m at. Maybe even (gasp) a little bit less.[/quote]

Gee, SO WHY ARE YOU POSTING IN THE BODYBUILDING FORUM???

Did I use enough question marks?

[quote]
But keep your fucking bodybuilding forum. Seems like it’s all you got. [/quote]

LOL.

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Apparently not enough, you nasty cunt…LOL

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[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

Whatever douchebag. I know you want the last word, so I’ll just say now that you win the argument. Massage your balls all night to it. Ain’t worth my time. [/quote]

can i help? :slight_smile:

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TL; DR.

[quote]trextacy wrote:
Bricknyce wrote:
Trex, you said:

“And just because you are “tired” at the end of a full body workout and may not be fresh for a movement doesn’t mean anything- your last back exercise on back day is going to be shittier than the first 3 were, just like your last exercise of military press is going to be if you’ve done squats and rows before it. It’s just the way it is and doesn’t invalidate the whole approach. Just do them in revserse order the next time, or take sufficient rest.”

Fatigue during a workout doesn’t mean anything? Are you fucking kidding me? It’s not just a matter of being mentally and physically “tired” (why that’s in quotes, I don’t know); it’s a matter of INABILITY to perform optimally for a muscle group or exercise, regardless of feeling tired. And this sort of inability IS important to note for bodybuilding! You can’t keep training muscles in a fatigued state in the middle or end of a TBT session. Is this even wise to do if you want optimal development in every muscle?

I did NOT say that the fatigue incurred from a whole-body workout defeats the method; I, myself, now follow a TBT routine because of my current goals. But I DON’T deny the flaws in this approach FOR BODYBUILDING!

Nothing lags in a routine? Again, are you kidding me?! ALL routines are FLAWED! A muscle group trained later in a session is always going to receive less damage than one trained in the beginning of a workout. Refer to an Ian King or Alwyn Cosgrove article or book or even a freaking interview with Dorian Yates in which they talk about this.

Dude, settle down.

I’m just addressing criticisms and saying they are overblow. 2 common knocks on ALL full body workouts are that (a) you are too tired at the end to hit a muscle group (even though you haven’t necessarily worked THAT group yet) and (b) certain bodyparts will lag.

What I’m saying is that

(a) intensity and strength begin to wane at the end of any workout that is intense, whether it’s a split or a full body program, so that criticism may be a potential “con” of a FB approach but it’s not some insurmountable thing, and it can apply to splits as well. If I have 1 back exercise left to do, and I’m doing a split, then I would suggest that my performance on that exercise would be shittier than if I had 1 exercise left to do on a FB routine and that exercise was a back exercise. Yes, my CNS is fatigued as shit at that point, but my back muscles aren’t, so my performance should still be sufficient to stimulate the back.

(b) muscles can lag on any program, and if you are lagging on a split or FB you can address that. to say FB sucks because bodyparts will lag is a strawman.[/quote]

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[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

Whatever douchebag. I know you want the last word, so I’ll just say now that you win the argument. Massage your balls all night to it. Ain’t worth my time. [/quote]

My gawd. You are a bucket full of stupid. What is it you don’t understand about this… ‘Combat Sports’ is for discussing combat sports, ‘Bodybuilding’ is for… you guessed it. So you went from 135 to 180 using TBT… I’ve seen kids do that just from working at sea with me, that doesn’t make it bodybuilding.

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[quote]Mr.Purple wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

Whatever douchebag. I know you want the last word, so I’ll just say now that you win the argument. Massage your balls all night to it. Ain’t worth my time.

My gawd. You are a bucket full of stupid. What is it you don’t understand about this… ‘Combat Sports’ is for discussing combat sports, ‘Bodybuilding’ is for… you guessed it. So you went from 135 to 180 using TBT… I’ve seen kids do that just from working at sea with me, that doesn’t make it bodybuilding.[/quote]

How DARE you point that out, you cunt!!

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[quote]Professor X wrote:

How DARE you point that out, you cunt!![/quote]

Well, it’s all I’ve got.