Why does the guy in the Cain rehab video look like the dad from the wonder years? lol
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Rejoice, Cain is rehabbing his knee under the stern eyes of brofessionals!
And that’s just rehab, wait until he can train full out!
Edit (forgot the sarcasm button)
So one fight and injured again?
this thread is full of brotards
anyone rehabbing a knee - doing leg extensions is def under the supervision of
a Brofessional
might explain the great cardio with no definition
[quote]BigEasy24 wrote:
Weight class exist for a reason so any time you beat a guy who is a weight class below without actually going to HIS class its more of a stain. I think Silva is over rated badly but I think you have to look at who he lost to and his wins in a bubble. Beating Franklin then meant more than if he beat him now… Same time that’s why win lose doesn’t matter a whole lot to me its about controlling someone and doing what you want to them. Jones isn’t the greatest and nor will he be until he goes up to heavy and fights with success their he doesn’t have to win the title to pass a spider or GSP or anyone ahead of him. His wins with the exception of Gus and Cormier have come against old men and middleweights. [/quote]
That makes absolutely no sense. By that logic only fighters who move up weight classes or down weight are worthy of any recognition. Demetrius Johnson should go on the crispy cream diet and move up and fight at HW, otherwise his domination of his division means nothing and GSP’s legacy meant nothing because he didn’t go down and beat Jose Aldo. And at the same time it completely devalues those who move up a weight class to fight above their natural division. So basically what you are saying is that no wins in MMA aren’t either a “stain” on someone’s record (because they fought someone outside of their natural weight class, or not worthy of giving them credit for (because they didn’t fight someone outside of their natural weight class).
There are weight classes because people naturally come in different shapes and sizes. Jones has always been a LHW and has since beaten everyone who has been put against him, and none of them have been journeymen, let alone tomatoe cans in contrast many of them have been former LHW champs (Rashad, Machida, Rampage, Hendo, Shogun, Belfort), while the others have mostly been been legit #1 contenders (with the possible exception of Sonnen). Heck, Cormier allegedly matches Cain the HW champ in training and dominated several HOF’ers in the HW division prior to moving down to fight Jones. Saying his wins and divisional domination mean nothing because he doesn’t move up to HW is just ridiculous.
Even more impressive though IMO is how he has beat many of these fighters. He out wrestled Sonnen, he out clinched Cormier and he finished Lyoto, Rampage, Shogun and Belfort. He is a complete MMA fighter and has virtually no weak spots in his skill sets. With the exception of Gus no one has been able to really match him and push him to his limits. If he beats Rumble I don’t see any way he isn’t GOAT up to this point. Even Fedor and GSP did not have more impressive runs against better competition IMO and those two would be my #2 and #3 GOAT.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]BigEasy24 wrote:
Weight class exist for a reason so any time you beat a guy who is a weight class below without actually going to HIS class its more of a stain. I think Silva is over rated badly but I think you have to look at who he lost to and his wins in a bubble. Beating Franklin then meant more than if he beat him now… Same time that’s why win lose doesn’t matter a whole lot to me its about controlling someone and doing what you want to them. Jones isn’t the greatest and nor will he be until he goes up to heavy and fights with success their he doesn’t have to win the title to pass a spider or GSP or anyone ahead of him. His wins with the exception of Gus and Cormier have come against old men and middleweights. [/quote]
That makes absolutely no sense. By that logic only fighters who move up weight classes or down weight are worthy of any recognition. Demetrius Johnson should go on the crispy cream diet and move up and fight at HW, otherwise his domination of his division means nothing and GSP’s legacy meant nothing because he didn’t go down and beat Jose Aldo. And at the same time it completely devalues those who move up a weight class to fight above their natural division. So basically what you are saying is that no wins in MMA aren’t either a “stain” on someone’s record (because they fought someone outside of their natural weight class, or not worthy of giving them credit for (because they didn’t fight someone outside of their natural weight class).
There are weight classes because people naturally come in different shapes and sizes. Jones has always been a LHW and has since beaten everyone who has been put against him, and none of them have been journeymen, let alone tomatoe cans in contrast many of them have been former LHW champs (Rashad, Machida, Rampage, Hendo, Shogun, Belfort), while the others have mostly been been legit #1 contenders (with the possible exception of Sonnen). Heck, Cormier allegedly matches Cain the HW champ in training and dominated several HOF’ers in the HW division prior to moving down to fight Jones. Saying his wins and divisional domination mean nothing because he doesn’t move up to HW is just ridiculous.
Even more impressive though IMO is how he has beat many of these fighters. He out wrestled Sonnen, he out clinched Cormier and he finished Lyoto, Rampage, Shogun and Belfort. He is a complete MMA fighter and has virtually no weak spots in his skill sets. With the exception of Gus no one has been able to really match him and push him to his limits. If he beats Rumble I don’t see any way he isn’t GOAT up to this point. Even Fedor and GSP did not have more impressive runs against better competition IMO and those two would be my #2 and #3 GOAT.
[/quote]
Totally agree with Sento’s response^^^^^^^^^. BE24, you lost me here:
“Same time that’s why win lose doesn’t matter a whole lot to me its about controlling someone and doing what you want to them”
If you are controlling someone and doing what you want to them in a sporting match, shouldn’t you be winning?
What is Mighty mouse natural weight class. 125 he’s the champ, he might have been the second best bantamweight at one time and could still be.
My point is that as long as weigh ins are scheduled in a way that you can massive amounts of water weight and rehydrate the next day being much larger than a natural welterweight gives you an advantage that could give you a win, but doesn’t make you the better fighter. Ex Hendricks/GSP who really thinks skill wise big rig is on the same level? but because he is a great weight cutter he is able to use strength as an extra weapon
Honestly I’m not a fan of the huge weight cutting that is going on either. But you can’t really just isolate Jones or Hendricks as pretty much everyone cuts weight in MMA other than the Heavyweights; it’s just a part of Combat Sports as we know it. GSP was cutting from 185-190 for most of his title reign, so it’s not like he was a “natural” welterweight. Anderson walks around over 200, Aldo walks around at 165, and Mighty Mouse walks around at around 140. Let’s face it, weight cutting is just an intrinsic part of MMA at this point, so faulting individual fighters for doing it well isn’t really fair. If you want to fault the organization for how the weigh ins are structured that would make more sense, and I agree with. But until a time when the UFC as a whole entity starts changing how the weigh ins are scheduled weight cutting will continue to be a big part of MMA; which means you can’t really cherry pick individual fighters who you don’t like and fault them for doing it.
My question is with most of the guys and numbers you said and I believe them to be mostly accurate, how “n shape” are they? Great athletes on down time letting the body heal or are they slacking off some from their diets? I read somewhere for his title fight with rampage Forrest ballooned up to 250-260lbs that’s a guy that is/was in the wrong class
I’d say that most of them are very much in shape, but attempting to maximize their strength and lean muscle mass so they can come into the fight with as much of a size/strength advantage as possible. Most of the weight lost during s “cut” is water, and since many of these guys are getting access to better and better technology and rehydration methodologies (I’ve heard that GSP actually used IV’s to help replenish his glycogen and water between when he weighed in and actually stepped into the cage, and I doubt he’s the only one) doubt the cuts will become any less severe as we go forward. That is after all the whole point of “cutting” weight. Almost no one in MMA fights at their “natural” weight (whatever that is supposed to mean anyhow).
But even if we were to say “let themselves go” and get way out of shape, are you suggesting that this means this “out of shape” weight is their “actual/natural” weight and therefore shouldn’t be in those weight classes? Even if Forrest went on the Golden Corral all you can eat buffet diet, and started training powerlifting style and ballooned up to 300 lbs of blubber that wouldn’t make him a “natural” heavyweight and mean he was in the wrong weight class as a Light Heavy. I actually would like to see the UFC introduce a Cruiserweight division, because I think it’s a bit silly to put anyone who can’t make 205 to anyone who can cut to 265 in the same class, and I actually think there are quite a few fighters that would fit into this category; I’d also like to see them extend the HW limit to 285 like Scholastic and International Wrestling uses.
I’m suggesting that European fighters especially Asian fighters don’t cut weight like we do. Wrestlers are known for water cutting and even shaving full body to lose a ounce. I’m fully aware no one can keep in that peak of a form year round without severe wear and tear on the body. I’m not saying when I wrestled I was on their level of athleticism but I noticed when I was leaner and closer to my weight class I performed significantly better than debilitating myself losing 15-20 pounds of water weight while starving myself.
problem with the cruiserweight depending if you cut it off at 225ish is the HW is so shallow now how can you build a new division for basically 10-15 guys? The heavy weight limit is a joke to me. I say created a new division with no limit and have light heavy stop at like 235ish that way it gives both divisions plenty of guys that can jump back and forth for depth.
[quote]BigEasy24 wrote:
I’m suggesting that European fighters especially Asian fighters don’t cut weight like we do. Wrestlers are known for water cutting and even shaving full body to lose a ounce. I’m fully aware no one can keep in that peak of a form year round without severe wear and tear on the body. I’m not saying when I wrestled I was on their level of athleticism but I noticed when I was leaner and closer to my weight class I performed significantly better than debilitating myself losing 15-20 pounds of water weight while starving myself. [/quote]
Wrestling weigh ins are generally the same day as the competition though (often times just a few hours if that), and as a high school or even collegiate wrestler you not only have restrictions on how you can cut weight, but also how much you can cut, and how you can replenish the water and glycogen you lost during your cut. In contrast UFC weigh ins take place roughly 24 hours pre contest (meaning your body has significantly more time to replenish and recover from your cut, thus you can afford to cut more and still be relatively recovered come fight time, and again they have access to better rehydration/glycogen replenishment methodologies than high school or even collegiate athletes do. All of this combined means they can afford to cut larger amounts of weight without much if any decreased performance.
how do you feel if they allow the cutting to continue if they had something similar to the skin hydration test wrestling uses?
[quote]BigEasy24 wrote:
problem with the cruiserweight depending if you cut it off at 225ish is the HW is so shallow now how can you build a new division for basically 10-15 guys? The heavy weight limit is a joke to me. I say created a new division with no limit and have light heavy stop at like 235ish that way it gives both divisions plenty of guys that can jump back and forth for depth.[/quote]
I would cut it at 245 and then limit that HW division at 285. That gives a 40 lb window for the Cruisers and a 40 window for the HW’s. I think the problem with not putting a weight limit is that it encourages poor conditioning (not many people are going to be 300 lbs of solid muscle like Pudz or Bob Sapp, and definitely aren’t going to without some PED’s, so what you’ll probably get are a bunch of big sloppy fighters, which isn’t what the UFC wants. Again, Scholastic and International Wrestling has a 285 lb limit for their HW division and there seem to be a decent number of athletes competing in those competitions.
even a well conditioned athlete will have cardio issues when pushing nearly 300 pounds its just not like there is a bunch of Cain’s out there with an additional 50lbs. Pudz will never fight outside of Poland against high level competition. Sapp is rumored to fix fights and the fact he hasn’t looked good against anyone since the big nog fight in pride. Unless the UFC is more open to novelty fights the 285 limit would give more leverage to the “Big Country” look. Unless guys like brock, Mir, Carwinn become more common.
[quote]BigEasy24 wrote:
how do you feel if they allow the cutting to continue if they had something similar to the skin hydration test wrestling uses?
[/quote]
I think fighters would just find a way to cheat it just like they try to cycle off PED’s before fights. If you are going to start placing limits on how much fighters can cut, then I think you’ve just gotta set a hard limit; the problem would be enforcing it. You would essentially need to do randomized weigh ins, and since weight can naturally fluctuate 5 lbs or so depending on hydration, food, sodium intake, etc… You would still have to likely have some sort of “wiggle room”. And what would you do if they failed it? Not let them fight months into the future? Make them re-weigh in a little later (which they would probably just cut water for).
I really don’t think there is anything that can or will be done to change weight cutting in MMA and it’s just a reality we as fans have to deal with.
[quote]BigEasy24 wrote:
even a well conditioned athlete will have cardio issues when pushing nearly 300 pounds its just not like there is a bunch of Cain’s out there with an additional 50lbs. Pudz will never fight outside of Poland against high level competition. Sapp is rumored to fix fights and the fact he hasn’t looked good against anyone since the big nog fight in pride. Unless the UFC is more open to novelty fights the 285 limit would give more leverage to the “Big Country” look. Unless guys like brock, Mir, Carwinn become more common. [/quote]
Well, again there seem to be a decent number of HW Wrestlers (both scholastic and international), and there are plenty of guys in the 255-285 lbs range that are highly athletic and not Big Country fat in the NFL and college football; so those guys are out there, but I agree that until there is a lot more money in MMA the real athletic freaks are likely to go into other mainstream sports and there aren’t that many currently active.
[quote]BigEasy24 wrote:
I’m suggesting that European fighters especially Asian fighters don’t cut weight like we do. Wrestlers are known for water cutting and even shaving full body to lose a ounce. I’m fully aware no one can keep in that peak of a form year round without severe wear and tear on the body. I’m not saying when I wrestled I was on their level of athleticism but I noticed when I was leaner and closer to my weight class I performed significantly better than debilitating myself losing 15-20 pounds of water weight while starving myself. [/quote]
I think your underestimating a few things.
top level college wrestlers cut giant amounts of weight.
and really are using better methods. Par for the course.
I cut 12-15 lbs 2x a week to make 125 and or 120.
thats on a tiny kid.
Pros- have equally GIANT ASS purses on the line to make weight and are using even more
sophisticated methods. of cutting and rehydrating.
Most pro boxers are Using IV’s and most MMA types are as well.
Its so much easier on the body vs rehydrating manually.
your not having to pee every two seconds after flushing out
what equates to 1-4 gallons of water
( gallon is almost 9 lbs )
what is the few hundred dollar fee to have a PA or Nurse or bro-doctor
administer some IV to help you rehydrate.
your expending no effort to do so - and can lay down and re-coupe.
combine your IV - and some drinking in a controlled fashion.
NCAA big tourneys-that span a few days like Midlands Big ten etc you make scratch weight
each day and you have all the testing you can shake a stick at- as for hydration litmus etc.
International - you weigh that morning of or literally minutes before you have your first bout
( depending on the sport Judo BJJ - Greco etc)
Boxing- if you fight Pacquiao Mayweather or in many feds- you are limited In how much you can rehydrate a percentage related to the weight class.
Cutting isnt going away - UFC could adopt a program that is similar- but Im sure we would be disapointed.