Advice for Wider Lats?

Training
121

When you guys talk about “wide grip” are you talking about going out as far as the bar goes, ie where it cants at an angle? I’d read it was bad for the shoulders and only go as wide as the bar remains straight.

X, Bauber, etc. mind walking step by step through your form? Do you lean back and put your chest towards the bar more, or do you remain wholely vertical? Did you go for volume, frequency, weighted and lower reps… fill us in?

I see lots of guys get that steady taper out of their lats, but I honestly don’t see how you get that drastic “swinging out” of the lats, ie you have an almost horizontal plane to your lats, where most guy just have that ‘v’, is that training specific or just sheer genetic luck?

122

[quote]Quasi-Tech wrote:
When you guys talk about “wide grip” are you talking about going out as far as the bar goes, ie where it cants at an angle? I’d read it was bad for the shoulders and only go as wide as the bar remains straight.

X, Bauber, etc. mind walking step by step through your form? Do you lean back and put your chest towards the bar more, or do you remain wholely vertical? Did you go for volume, frequency, weighted and lower reps… fill us in?

I see lots of guys get that steady taper out of their lats, but I honestly don’t see how you get that drastic “swinging out” of the lats, ie you have an almost horizontal plane to your lats, where most guy just have that ‘v’, is that training specific or just sheer genetic luck?

[/quote]

I go to the grips on the very end passed the bend. A trainer I had that was very successful at Team Universe told me that as a big man you go with a wide grip for a wide back. His advice hasn’t been wrong.

I take a slight lean and try to push my upper chest through the ceiling if that makes any sense. One thing I learned was often I was going to heavy and feeling it in my arms. Now, I can tell exactly when I am hitting and contracting my lats and had to drop my weight almost by half at first to get it down. I think the back muscles are the hardest mind to muscle to really get down as they are behind you and you can’t see them and many people’s arms tend to take over due to them being more developed especially on isolation exercises.

I would say it is genetic luck. But that doesn’t mean you can’t develop it just might take longer. Not bragging, but I have not found a body part of mine that doesn’t grow very quickly when hit hard and correctly.

123

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]SLAINGE wrote:

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:

[quote]SLAINGE wrote:

With arms overhead pull the ribcage down, breath through your abbs, point your toes keeping them just ahead of your body, contracting your abs. If you use a fat grip with the hook grip I described you will feel your lats contract on every rep

[/quote]

That is literally the exact opposite of what I do. Weird.[/quote]

I won’t argue with your results!

The way I explained it above is for injury prevention in the long term as pull ups are being recommended by most, so doing it right is paramount. Again I’ll reiterate my example of going slack in the bottom of the squat as a comparable example to what most are doing when attempting pull ups.

I used to do quite a lot of pull ups and chin variations for reps or weighted, using a conventional style, one with a thumb over the bar grip, a deadhang stretch at the bottom, elevation of the ribcage on the concentric portion, with arching of the lower back, legs either pointed straight down or knees bent with heels behind me.

After using this technique for some time (chasing the stretch and full ROM for optimal growth) I developed a clicking sensation in my left shoulder in the bottom position (this got worse using a wide grip btw). The slack and bad positioning I introduced at the bottom caused this problem to develop.

Basically too much internal rotation of the shoulder in the overhead (end range flexion) position and disengagement of the core resulting in structural slack throughout the kinetic chain that has to be taken up by a now destabilised shoulder in capsular slack.
[/quote]

Doing them the “wrong” way you’re describing is how most Marines I know with messed up shoulders to pullups. Granted, these are usually pretty reckless guys all around, but I think that’s what contributes to the “more reps at all costs” mentality which, when it leads to bad form on pullups, messes their shoulders up. [/quote]

Very true! I would say most new trainees are in the same boat as the marines you described, lots of enthusiasm but no knowledge of how to do key moves the right way to prevent injury. I learned the hard way by hurting my shoulder and considering I was a stickler for perfect form that pissed me off bigtime! It was that deadhang position you hear constantly recommended that caught me out. You can hang to obtain a good stretch but externally rotated shoulders (arm pits pointing forward) should not be sacrificed in order to get that stretch.

124

When I did my Pull-Ups last night I did similar form Bauber, so I’m glad I was on task. I also ensure to start from dead hang each time. I didn’t always get my chin above the bar, but at that point I believe contraction is not the lats.

Do you do frequency - multiple times a week, just on back day? Are you doing a volume setup (like ‘x’ set to 50 / 100 reps), or 5x10, etc.?

I love training back, its honestly my favorite day.

125

Fuck yeah with wide pullups. Even when I was over 300, id warmup with pull ups.
I love chest-supported t-bar rows. I like them because, its keeps me from cheating too much.
Under-handed cable rows really bring out your lower lats.

126

When you guys mention lots of volume for a big back, how much is “lots”?

127

Looks like the only thing this thread has proved is that everyone’s back has grown from different stuff.

From my own experience chins of any kind havent been particularly useful for building a wider back. I think theyre great for athletic performance, strength and general movement quality but for me were a poor mass builder. I like pulldowns, seated rows and hammerstrength rows, done for 10+ reps and always slightly lighter than you could go, but focusing on an awesome stretch and intense contraction.

128

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
I’ll throw my hat/back into the ring on this as well. I’m a powerlifter, but I feel like back training is something my sport does pretty well. I’ve stuck to basic chins and rows for my back development. By “chins”, I refer to pretty much any chin/pull up variant. I tend to stay away from wide grip stuff due to having dislocated my right shoulder 5 times, but I’ll even throw in a few sets just for the sake of variety.

Otherwise, chin ups, pull ups, angled chins/pulls, close grip, v handle, fat gripz, etc. For rows, I spent years doing dumbbell rows, to include purchasing a dumbbell row handle to be able to do heavier rows. These days, I’m also big on meadows rows with a handle.

In my current training, I do 200 chins whenever I train my upper body (twice a week), along with 10x10 of a row variant on my bench day and 4x12-15 of another on my deadlift/mat pull day. I’m also doing 200 band pull aparts a day and 100 band shoulder dislocations due to what I think is an impingement on my right shoulder. [/quote]

How do you split up the 200 chins during the upper body workout? In sets of five as seen in your video? Lately I’ve been doing 16x8 pullups once or twice a week depending on the number of weighted pullup sessions done.

Contributing to the wide vs medium debate, I’ve noticed that wide feels great for bodyweight while a medium grip allows for a stronger pull when adding 40 kgs

129

[quote]Diddy Ryder wrote:
When you guys mention lots of volume for a big back, how much is “lots”?[/quote]

30-40 sets 4 times per week

130

Do you have a pull-up bar in your home you just do them on as you walk by? If you’re doing 30 sets, 4 times a week, and assume a 1 minute break between sets, that’s half an hour each time, 2 hours spent on one exercise. That’s a lot of time at the gym on one exercise, unless I’m misunderstanding. I can see doing that at home because its convenient, but damn, that’s a lot of time.

131

[quote]Cockburn wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
I’ll throw my hat/back into the ring on this as well. I’m a powerlifter, but I feel like back training is something my sport does pretty well. I’ve stuck to basic chins and rows for my back development. By “chins”, I refer to pretty much any chin/pull up variant. I tend to stay away from wide grip stuff due to having dislocated my right shoulder 5 times, but I’ll even throw in a few sets just for the sake of variety.

Otherwise, chin ups, pull ups, angled chins/pulls, close grip, v handle, fat gripz, etc. For rows, I spent years doing dumbbell rows, to include purchasing a dumbbell row handle to be able to do heavier rows. These days, I’m also big on meadows rows with a handle.

In my current training, I do 200 chins whenever I train my upper body (twice a week), along with 10x10 of a row variant on my bench day and 4x12-15 of another on my deadlift/mat pull day. I’m also doing 200 band pull aparts a day and 100 band shoulder dislocations due to what I think is an impingement on my right shoulder. [/quote]

How do you split up the 200 chins during the upper body workout? In sets of five as seen in your video? Lately I’ve been doing 16x8 pullups once or twice a week depending on the number of weighted pullup sessions done.

Contributing to the wide vs medium debate, I’ve noticed that wide feels great for bodyweight while a medium grip allows for a stronger pull when adding 40 kgs[/quote]

I’ll start my bench or press workout with 1 giant set of chins, with 2 rest pauses (12-15 deep breaths) and some resetting of my grip as necessary. These days, I hit around 100 chins this way. After this, I do sets of chins in between all my other movements/with trips to the water fountain. If it’s a long day, I’ll just do sets of 3-5. If I am running low on time, I’ll shoot more for 10ish.

132

[quote]Quasi-Tech wrote:
Do you have a pull-up bar in your home you just do them on as you walk by? If you’re doing 30 sets, 4 times a week, and assume a 1 minute break between sets, that’s half an hour each time, 2 hours spent on one exercise. That’s a lot of time at the gym on one exercise, unless I’m misunderstanding. I can see doing that at home because its convenient, but damn, that’s a lot of time.[/quote]

I was partially joking with the Frenchman. “Lots” is relative to the years of training experience one has. Also if a lower percentage of 1RM is used, more volume can be added.

Sometimes I hang from the second floor of my building for 30 sets of GTG work. But I meant 2x30 sets upper back, 2x30 sets lats + bis. The other day I did 20x3 SGRDL, 4x10 Hang Cleans, 4x10 HS Low Row, and 4x20 Pullaparts

133

[quote]Cockburn wrote:

I was partially joking with the Frenchman. “Lots” is relative to the years of training experience one has. Also if a lower percentage of 1RM is used, more volume can be added.
[/quote]

I thought you were after I checked out your log :wink: Also, not French just live here.

I appreciate that “lots” is a vague and variable number, so I’ll provide a bit more info. For example, I’m training 5/3/1 and on OHP day I do 5x10 DB Row with 42kg and then 3x10 Pull-downs with 80kg, but I’m wondering if I’m doing enough volume or if I should add in some seated rows or whatever.

134

[quote]Diddy Ryder wrote:

[quote]Cockburn wrote:

I was partially joking with the Frenchman. “Lots” is relative to the years of training experience one has. Also if a lower percentage of 1RM is used, more volume can be added.
[/quote]

I thought you were after I checked out your log :wink: Also, not French just live here.

I appreciate that “lots” is a vague and variable number, so I’ll provide a bit more info. For example, I’m training 5/3/1 and on OHP day I do 5x10 DB Row with 42kg and then 3x10 Pull-downs with 80kg, but I’m wondering if I’m doing enough volume or if I should add in some seated rows or whatever.
[/quote]

Should definitely add way more volume.

135

[quote]Diddy Ryder wrote:

[quote]Cockburn wrote:

I was partially joking with the Frenchman. “Lots” is relative to the years of training experience one has. Also if a lower percentage of 1RM is used, more volume can be added.
[/quote]

I thought you were after I checked out your log :wink: Also, not French just live here.

I appreciate that “lots” is a vague and variable number, so I’ll provide a bit more info. For example, I’m training 5/3/1 and on OHP day I do 5x10 DB Row with 42kg and then 3x10 Pull-downs with 80kg, but I’m wondering if I’m doing enough volume or if I should add in some seated rows or whatever.
[/quote]

More volume for sure bro.

136

[quote]Quasi-Tech wrote:
When you guys talk about “wide grip” are you talking about going out as far as the bar goes, ie where it cants at an angle? I’d read it was bad for the shoulders and only go as wide as the bar remains straight. [/quote]

My grip is usually right on those angles.

It hasn’t been bad for my shoulders.

[quote]
X, Bauber, etc. mind walking step by step through your form? Do you lean back and put your chest towards the bar more, or do you remain wholely vertical? Did you go for volume, frequency, weighted and lower reps… fill us in?[/quote]

I was told by Idrise Ward-El that when training my back, I should act like one of those fitness models who are trying to stick their ass out for the camera.

While that visual may be disturbing for some of you, it helped me understand how my body should be positioned at the start of most back movements.

When doing pull downs, my form is pretty on point…for me (don’t care what perfect form is really). My back arched slightly inward like a Kardashian at a pool party.

I went for all out strength early on. Now that I am able to move big weight with decent form, it is way more about overall volume.

Honestly, I see that on guys who were much heavier and dieted back down. In that, I mean you are talking about someone who was carrying some serious overall body mass to build that width. i don’t see that on guys who never went that all out “strength all out mass route”.

137

[quote]Diddy Ryder wrote:
When you guys mention lots of volume for a big back, how much is “lots”?[/quote]

3-5 exercises. I do not always do 5 exercises. I would pass out most days if I tried that.

138

Thanks for the replies Rattlehead, Prof X and Bauber. More volume coming up :slight_smile:

139

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Quasi-Tech wrote:
When you guys talk about “wide grip” are you talking about going out as far as the bar goes, ie where it cants at an angle? I’d read it was bad for the shoulders and only go as wide as the bar remains straight. [/quote]

My grip is usually right on those angles.

It hasn’t been bad for my shoulders.

I agree with this. I’ve seen some guys with decent back width that never took the “mass route”, but with nothing really impressive. I just think the look of many backs is lacking without that thickness that comes with adding weight. I think that thickness, especially in the lats, is what really makes a back pop.

When guys work on width, but fail to really add much weight, it just looks like their back is spread thin without any real substance. Also, X, would you care to answer my question from earlier? I’d appreciate a response.

140

Some good advice here.

Personally, for me:

  1. Straps, especially if you use them correctly!

  2. Hitting back twice a week. Heavier the first day with a bit looser form, and more detail oriented the second day with stricter form. Different exercises both days as well.

  3. Deadlifts.