Advice for Wider Lats?

Training
101

Ahh, ok good. I had read the little info on the website about 2 being a true “grip definer” for those who needed it for real life things like self defense, grappling, etc. and when the 1.5 was closed the first night I got it, I was disappointed.

I’ll be buying the 2 and 2.5 I think, and will definitely be spending time there. I don’t need to hit the 3, I just want to build good strength in my forearms so it never limits my growth elsewhere.

I’m also debating throwing in some direct forearm work, but I feel so stupid doing wrist curls in the gym, etc. Maybe I’ll just buy fat grips and try that. Anywho, thanks for the response, and now back to backs!

102

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

I have a tendency to think of forearms a lot like calves. Some people can have huge calves with no direct work just secondary involvement during other leg and conditioning work. Some people have to work outrageously hard on their calves. Forearms are the same way. I will say that the best set of forearms I have personally seen on a person though was someone who actually did a lot (compared to most people) of direct forearm work when he did Bi’s. [/quote]

I tend to agree with that…but I had skinny arms.

The one thing that helped me with grip strength is the day I stopped using my straps so much.

I didn’t stop completely using them for years…but tried to stick to the really heavy movements only or the last sets.[/quote]

I definitely agree with Professor X on this one, primarily because we are back once again to the question of prioritization. High frequency and high volume have there place, but why would I necessarily cut into my recovery ability and increase my workout time by adding in MORE exercises, or worse, another whole day of training?

If my training revolves around multi-joint movements with heavy weights, why would I add direct forearm work when I can train my forearms on those very same exercises? I’m not saying that direct forearm work isn’t necessary for anyone, but why should I automatically give forearms their own training time when I can train them with everything else?

And furthermore, I also think X is dead on in his assessment of the issue being mind-muscle connection development rather than the need for straps. I swam competitively for years, and as a consequence, I have NO problem tapping into my lats regardless of grip (thumbs over/around, supinated/ pronated, wide/narrow). You don’t need to use straps if you can develop that mind-muscle connection; it’s really that simple. [/quote]

You definitely don’t need to, but I still like to use them for that purpose.

I’m curious. Do you feel that arms need direct training, or that heavy compound pushing/pulling is adequate stimulation for them? I’ve seen both schools of thought.

103

[quote]Quasi-Tech wrote:
Ahh, ok good. I had read the little info on the website about 2 being a true “grip definer” for those who needed it for real life things like self defense, grappling, etc. and when the 1.5 was closed the first night I got it, I was disappointed.

I’ll be buying the 2 and 2.5 I think, and will definitely be spending time there. I don’t need to hit the 3, I just want to build good strength in my forearms so it never limits my growth elsewhere.

I’m also debating throwing in some direct forearm work, but I feel so stupid doing wrist curls in the gym, etc. Maybe I’ll just buy fat grips and try that. Anywho, thanks for the response, and now back to backs![/quote]

I really wasn’t a fan of fat gripz for those purposes, but as you can tell, I’m just not big on passive forearm/grip training. However, if you do want to go that path, I would get grenade balls/cannon balls instead. I hate curls, but those things will get me to do them, and they blow up my forearms something fierce. Either do them in a cable station or with chains.

104

From talking with quite a few ppl that ditched this site and are quite large and experience they love fat grips during tricep, curls, and bench work to get sme great forearms stimulation. I also like them for this as well. It’s amazing the burn and pump you get. Then adding in hammer curls with or without fat grips are another good forearm bicep combo

105

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

I have a tendency to think of forearms a lot like calves. Some people can have huge calves with no direct work just secondary involvement during other leg and conditioning work. Some people have to work outrageously hard on their calves. Forearms are the same way. I will say that the best set of forearms I have personally seen on a person though was someone who actually did a lot (compared to most people) of direct forearm work when he did Bi’s. [/quote]

I tend to agree with that…but I had skinny arms.

The one thing that helped me with grip strength is the day I stopped using my straps so much.

I didn’t stop completely using them for years…but tried to stick to the really heavy movements only or the last sets.[/quote]

I definitely agree with Professor X on this one, primarily because we are back once again to the question of prioritization. High frequency and high volume have there place, but why would I necessarily cut into my recovery ability and increase my workout time by adding in MORE exercises, or worse, another whole day of training?

If my training revolves around multi-joint movements with heavy weights, why would I add direct forearm work when I can train my forearms on those very same exercises? I’m not saying that direct forearm work isn’t necessary for anyone, but why should I automatically give forearms their own training time when I can train them with everything else?

And furthermore, I also think X is dead on in his assessment of the issue being mind-muscle connection development rather than the need for straps. I swam competitively for years, and as a consequence, I have NO problem tapping into my lats regardless of grip (thumbs over/around, supinated/ pronated, wide/narrow). You don’t need to use straps if you can develop that mind-muscle connection; it’s really that simple. [/quote]

You definitely don’t need to, but I still like to use them for that purpose.

I’m curious. Do you feel that arms need direct training, or that heavy compound pushing/pulling is adequate stimulation for them? I’ve seen both schools of thought.
[/quote]

In my opinion, both schools are correct, especially when it comes to hypertrophy. I think people vastly underestimate the capacity of the big, basic compound movements to pack on the mass. I used to do various forms of pushdowns and extensions, but it wasn’t until I started focusing on increasing the weight I could handle and the number of reps that I could do at a given weight on the bench press instead that my arms started growing again.

I’m not denying the place for other pumping exercises, and some people have limited strength potential. I just think more can be achieved by focusing on the big exercises than people realize.

106

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

I have a tendency to think of forearms a lot like calves. Some people can have huge calves with no direct work just secondary involvement during other leg and conditioning work. Some people have to work outrageously hard on their calves. Forearms are the same way. I will say that the best set of forearms I have personally seen on a person though was someone who actually did a lot (compared to most people) of direct forearm work when he did Bi’s. [/quote]

I tend to agree with that…but I had skinny arms.

The one thing that helped me with grip strength is the day I stopped using my straps so much.

I didn’t stop completely using them for years…but tried to stick to the really heavy movements only or the last sets.[/quote]

I definitely agree with Professor X on this one, primarily because we are back once again to the question of prioritization. High frequency and high volume have there place, but why would I necessarily cut into my recovery ability and increase my workout time by adding in MORE exercises, or worse, another whole day of training?

If my training revolves around multi-joint movements with heavy weights, why would I add direct forearm work when I can train my forearms on those very same exercises? I’m not saying that direct forearm work isn’t necessary for anyone, but why should I automatically give forearms their own training time when I can train them with everything else?

And furthermore, I also think X is dead on in his assessment of the issue being mind-muscle connection development rather than the need for straps. I swam competitively for years, and as a consequence, I have NO problem tapping into my lats regardless of grip (thumbs over/around, supinated/ pronated, wide/narrow). You don’t need to use straps if you can develop that mind-muscle connection; it’s really that simple. [/quote]

You definitely don’t need to, but I still like to use them for that purpose.

I’m curious. Do you feel that arms need direct training, or that heavy compound pushing/pulling is adequate stimulation for them? I’ve seen both schools of thought.
[/quote]

In my opinion, both schools are correct, especially when it comes to hypertrophy. I think people vastly underestimate the capacity of the big, basic compound movements to pack on the mass. I used to do various forms of pushdowns and extensions, but it wasn’t until I started focusing on increasing the weight I could handle and the number of reps that I could do at a given weight on the bench press instead that my arms started growing again.

I’m not denying the place for other pumping exercises, and some people have limited strength potential. I just think more can be achieved by focusing on the big exercises than people realize.[/quote]

I’m with you. I don’t invest much time in my isolation work, as the heavy compounds are where the majority if my growth comes from. I just stick with the approach of focusing on the lift and the stuff that builds it.

107

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I would actually recommend a wide grip. [/quote]

I agree for pulldowns and chins, unless it’s a neutral grip.

I actually prefer doing all the machine stuff unilaterally now. You can alter your body position to work the stretch and focus on the contraction a lot better that way.

108

[quote]SLAINGE wrote:

With arms overhead pull the ribcage down, breath through your abbs, point your toes keeping them just ahead of your body, contracting your abs. If you use a fat grip with the hook grip I described you will feel your lats contract on every rep

[/quote]

That is literally the exact opposite of what I do. Weird.

109

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:

[quote]SLAINGE wrote:

With arms overhead pull the ribcage down, breath through your abbs, point your toes keeping them just ahead of your body, contracting your abs. If you use a fat grip with the hook grip I described you will feel your lats contract on every rep

[/quote]

That is literally the exact opposite of what I do. Weird.[/quote]

I won’t argue with your results!

The way I explained it above is for injury prevention in the long term as pull ups are being recommended by most, so doing it right is paramount. Again I’ll reiterate my example of going slack in the bottom of the squat as a comparable example to what most are doing when attempting pull ups.

I used to do quite a lot of pull ups and chin variations for reps or weighted, using a conventional style, one with a thumb over the bar grip, a deadhang stretch at the bottom, elevation of the ribcage on the concentric portion, with arching of the lower back, legs either pointed straight down or knees bent with heels behind me.

After using this technique for some time (chasing the stretch and full ROM for optimal growth) I developed a clicking sensation in my left shoulder in the bottom position (this got worse using a wide grip btw). The slack and bad positioning I introduced at the bottom caused this problem to develop.

Basically too much internal rotation of the shoulder in the overhead (end range flexion) position and disengagement of the core resulting in structural slack throughout the kinetic chain that has to be taken up by a now destabilised shoulder in capsular slack.

By doing what I suggested above allows the body to utilise muscle stretch, fascial loading, and joint capsular loading in an integrated system that keeps the shoulder stable and allows for optimal force production from the bottom position. Basically more pull ups with no elbow or shoulder pain.

110

[quote]SLAINGE wrote:

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:

[quote]SLAINGE wrote:

With arms overhead pull the ribcage down, breath through your abbs, point your toes keeping them just ahead of your body, contracting your abs. If you use a fat grip with the hook grip I described you will feel your lats contract on every rep

[/quote]

That is literally the exact opposite of what I do. Weird.[/quote]

I won’t argue with your results!

The way I explained it above is for injury prevention in the long term as pull ups are being recommended by most, so doing it right is paramount. Again I’ll reiterate my example of going slack in the bottom of the squat as a comparable example to what most are doing when attempting pull ups.

I used to do quite a lot of pull ups and chin variations for reps or weighted, using a conventional style, one with a thumb over the bar grip, a deadhang stretch at the bottom, elevation of the ribcage on the concentric portion, with arching of the lower back, legs either pointed straight down or knees bent with heels behind me.

After using this technique for some time (chasing the stretch and full ROM for optimal growth) I developed a clicking sensation in my left shoulder in the bottom position (this got worse using a wide grip btw). The slack and bad positioning I introduced at the bottom caused this problem to develop.

Basically too much internal rotation of the shoulder in the overhead (end range flexion) position and disengagement of the core resulting in structural slack throughout the kinetic chain that has to be taken up by a now destabilised shoulder in capsular slack.
[/quote]

Doing them the “wrong” way you’re describing is how most Marines I know with messed up shoulders to pullups. Granted, these are usually pretty reckless guys all around, but I think that’s what contributes to the “more reps at all costs” mentality which, when it leads to bad form on pullups, messes their shoulders up.

111

[quote]Quasi-Tech wrote:
Crap, I posted my back pic request in the wrong thread… the MC thread is so derailed I forgot which one the topic was in.

I’ll make the request here… X will you post a pic of your back - lat width - to show an example of the width you’ve gained? I’m sincerely interested as the only pics I’ve seen are from the front. This isn’t a challenge, just genius curiosity at your progress.

Edit: Crap, I saw X added his back pic… nice back X!![/quote]

I appreciate that. I will try to update that picture when I have more time.

Back training takes the most out of me. Leg training is the only other one that hits me like that.

I do tons of uni-lateral work now.

112

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

And furthermore, I also think X is dead on in his assessment of the issue being mind-muscle connection development rather than the need for straps. [/quote]

It’s the key to building any stand out body part that makes people look twice. I do way slower shrug work now just to really squeeze that muscle.

Bodybuilding is the one area where yeah, you need to build that solid base of strength, but once you are moving some real weight, you focus more on making sure the target muscle is what is feeling it the most.

This does NOT always mean perfect form…because what allows me to feel a certain muscle group the best may not work for someone else.

That is why Max Charles is NOT training wrong.

113

[quote]Bauber wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Just adding mine with everyone else’s.

[photo]38624[/photo]

Good work, Bauber

This is an old pic. [/quote]

Looking wide bro. Impressive by any standards. And especially for a natty.[/quote]

Thanks, Boss.

Much respect.

114

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I would actually recommend a wide grip. [/quote]

I agree for pulldowns and chins, unless it’s a neutral grip.

I actually prefer doing all the machine stuff unilaterally now. You can alter your body position to work the stretch and focus on the contraction a lot better that way.[/quote]

Same here. I can feel that muscle better that way.

It takes more out of you, but the evidence is there in the results.

115

After going thru this thread I learned 2 things:

  1. wide grips pulls, pendlay rows followed by stretchers WILL leave you freakin’ sore for 4 days…

  2. You can watch an IMAX movie on Prof X and Bauber’s backs.

116

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

And furthermore, I also think X is dead on in his assessment of the issue being mind-muscle connection development rather than the need for straps. [/quote]

It’s the key to building any stand out body part that makes people look twice. I do way slower shrug work now just to really squeeze that muscle.

Bodybuilding is the one area where yeah, you need to build that solid base of strength, but once you are moving some real weight, you focus more on making sure the target muscle is what is feeling it the most.

This does NOT always mean perfect form…because what allows me to feel a certain muscle group the best may not work for someone else.

That is why Max Charles is NOT training wrong.[/quote]

This hits on a good point where I think a lot of trainees confuse form with technique. There is this myth that, by making the weight move from A to B in a straight line with perfect body mechanics, you will hit X muscles. Some trainees don’t understand that you have to actually make the muscle do the work in order to get the movement to be effective.

117

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

And furthermore, I also think X is dead on in his assessment of the issue being mind-muscle connection development rather than the need for straps. [/quote]

It’s the key to building any stand out body part that makes people look twice. I do way slower shrug work now just to really squeeze that muscle.

Bodybuilding is the one area where yeah, you need to build that solid base of strength, but once you are moving some real weight, you focus more on making sure the target muscle is what is feeling it the most.

This does NOT always mean perfect form…because what allows me to feel a certain muscle group the best may not work for someone else.

That is why Max Charles is NOT training wrong.[/quote]

This hits on a good point where I think a lot of trainees confuse form with technique. There is this myth that, by making the weight move from A to B in a straight line with perfect body mechanics, you will hit X muscles. Some trainees don’t understand that you have to actually make the muscle do the work in order to get the movement to be effective.
[/quote]

…which is why you get newbs watching Max Charles lift and IGNORING his giant muscles to complain about his form.

I do NOT come all of the way down past the top of my ears for overhead presses. That works for me. The proof is in the results.

It is like being told you are training your chest wrong because the barbell doesn’t touch your 55" chest.

118

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

And furthermore, I also think X is dead on in his assessment of the issue being mind-muscle connection development rather than the need for straps. [/quote]

It’s the key to building any stand out body part that makes people look twice. I do way slower shrug work now just to really squeeze that muscle.

Bodybuilding is the one area where yeah, you need to build that solid base of strength, but once you are moving some real weight, you focus more on making sure the target muscle is what is feeling it the most.

This does NOT always mean perfect form…because what allows me to feel a certain muscle group the best may not work for someone else.

That is why Max Charles is NOT training wrong.[/quote]

This hits on a good point where I think a lot of trainees confuse form with technique. There is this myth that, by making the weight move from A to B in a straight line with perfect body mechanics, you will hit X muscles. Some trainees don’t understand that you have to actually make the muscle do the work in order to get the movement to be effective.
[/quote]

…which is why you get newbs watching Max Charles lift and IGNORING his giant muscles to complain about his form.

I do NOT come all of the way down past the top of my ears for overhead presses. That works for me. The proof is in the results.

It is like being told you are training your chest wrong because the barbell doesn’t touch your 55" chest.[/quote]

You gotta wonder when the thought of “maybe it’s me” would reach folks. I admit, it took me a while, but after seeing every successful guy training without using “full ROM”, I eventually started to wonder why I was doing it.

119

Fuck yeah with wide pullups. Even when I was over 300, id warmup with pull ups.
I love chest-supported t-bar rows. I like them because, its keeps me from cheating too much.
Under-handed cable rows really bring out your lower lats.

120

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

And furthermore, I also think X is dead on in his assessment of the issue being mind-muscle connection development rather than the need for straps. [/quote]

It’s the key to building any stand out body part that makes people look twice. I do way slower shrug work now just to really squeeze that muscle.

Bodybuilding is the one area where yeah, you need to build that solid base of strength, but once you are moving some real weight, you focus more on making sure the target muscle is what is feeling it the most.

This does NOT always mean perfect form…because what allows me to feel a certain muscle group the best may not work for someone else.

That is why Max Charles is NOT training wrong.[/quote]

This hits on a good point where I think a lot of trainees confuse form with technique. There is this myth that, by making the weight move from A to B in a straight line with perfect body mechanics, you will hit X muscles. Some trainees don’t understand that you have to actually make the muscle do the work in order to get the movement to be effective.
[/quote]

…which is why you get newbs watching Max Charles lift and IGNORING his giant muscles to complain about his form.

I do NOT come all of the way down past the top of my ears for overhead presses. That works for me. The proof is in the results.

It is like being told you are training your chest wrong because the barbell doesn’t touch your 55" chest.[/quote]

Lol so true. I don’t go past my ears or touch my chest on any pressing movement besides decline as there is no need for development and puts far my stress on my bicep tendons.