Back Width Exercise?

Training
1

That may sound stupid. First of all I trained at home and I could set up a rack chins somehow, now I train at basement with my 2 friends and I can’t do something like that there. I know this is an important movement and I can’t replace it. But I’m curious. What other muscles are targeted by this exercise that I can’t target doing decline pullovers, kroc rows, barbell rows for lats (bent over I think?) and slightly bent rows to target middle traps, and shrugs.

Maybe lower traps are out of it? What’s making back width? Does it mean you can’t make width without pull up movement? What is it? Is it teres that makes “back width”? And does teres work in these movements? I know it works kinda antagonistic to lateral delts.

So my post is kinda chaotic, the point is what pull up movement works that other back exercises can’t work. I know it’s important exercise, but WHY?

2

Different exercise work different muscles. That’s the short answer.

Learn what each does and you will know which exercise to do.

I know people will come here and tell you this exercise or that exercise. Why not learn the basics instead?

3

You sound like someone mentioning certain exercises just because that’s what’s “hawt” right now. The basics built the most huge backs, not “Kroc Rows”.

The only thing that will add “width” is adding a lot of muscle to your back, including your lats and traps and rhomboids in priority.

4

[quote]Professor X wrote:
You sound like someone mentioning certain exercises just because that’s what’s “hawt” right now. The basics built the most huge backs, not “Kroc Rows”.

The only thing that will add “width” is adding a lot of muscle to your back, including your lats and traps and rhomboids in priority.

[/quote]

When you say “basics” what exactly do you mean?

I always saw heavy DB rows as a staple exercise for me.

5

[quote]ebomb5522 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
You sound like someone mentioning certain exercises just because that’s what’s “hawt” right now. The basics built the most huge backs, not “Kroc Rows”.

The only thing that will add “width” is adding a lot of muscle to your back, including your lats and traps and rhomboids in priority.

[/quote]

When you say “basics” what exactly do you mean?

I always saw heavy DB rows as a staple exercise for me.[/quote]

Agreed. DB rows have been a staple for me also.

Furthermore, I think you would be naive to only focus on the ‘basic’ exercises. Just like with anything people develop a better way of doing things. I’ve been trying some of John Meadows’ stuff, and although not necessarily new, a slight twist on things has improved my back training no end and I think anyone can benefit from this. Why restrict yourself?

Although I agree, to telling most newbs to focus on the basics is the best advice and likely for this individual. Just adding for discussion.

6

[quote]Shontayne wrote:

Furthermore, I think you would be naive to only focus on the ‘basic’ exercises. [/quote]

? naive to focus on the shit that has built the most huge backs in history like dumbbell/barbell rows, t-bar rows, pull downs, pull ups, deads and any other sort of row. How is that “naive”? Also, aside from doing HS rows also, that is pretty much all I did with the exception of deadlifts for most of that time and my back isn’t exactly one of the small ones here.

What I was getting at was newbs thinking that a “rack pull” or a “kroc row” somehow needs to be top focus at the expense of the basics that have been around for decades. Doing the newest shit doesn’t mean the best results. Your work ethic is most important.

7

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Shontayne wrote:

Furthermore, I think you would be naive to only focus on the ‘basic’ exercises. [/quote]

? naive to focus on the shit that has built the most huge backs in history like dumbbell/barbell rows, t-bar rows, pull downs, pull ups, deads and any other sort of row. How is that “naive”? Also, aside from doing HS rows also, that is pretty much all I did with the exception of deadlifts for most of that time and my back isn’t exactly one of the small ones here…[/quote]

Kroc rows are essentially one arm db rows, no?

-I know what I am saying is largely irrelevant to the Ops situation, and i believe we are actually mostly in agreement on the fundamentals here. That being said…

The message I was trying to get across has been lost here. What I mean is I donâ??t think one should limit themselves and avoid trying new approaches. Various coaches come up with new training methods all the time, yes some of them are a waste of time, but others are not.For instance, the methods such as kayak rows that you now appear to be a strong proponent of.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
What I was getting at was newbs thinking that a “rack pull” or a “kroc row” somehow needs to be top focus at the expense of the basics that have been around for decades. Doing the newest shit doesn’t mean the best results. Your work ethic is most important. [/quote]

I agree with what you are getting at here entirely. Although, I believe both kroc rows and rack pulls would serve most newbs well. They’re not overly fancy and are both effective.

8

Wow, informative thread.

I have learned that loose-form DB rows and partial deadlifts have not been around for decades.

9

[quote]Professor X wrote:
“rack pull” or a “kroc row”[/quote]
Both of those are basics.

“The Kroc row is nothing more than a very high rep dumbbell row performed with a ridiculously heavy dumbbell.” - Matt Kroczaleski

And rack pulls are just deads where the bar starts a little higher. Usually below the knees though.

But I get what you meant and I agree, no need to make things complicated until you’ve been doing pulldowns with the stack for a while.

10

This may be a stupid question, but its been one I’ve been considering this past week Professor X…

Are Pulldowns useful as a separate exercise when you can do the same variations via Pull-Ups? Wide grip, close grip, neutral grip, supinated, etc.

It appears to be the same movement, just one where a weight moves and another where the body (and weight attached) moves. Perhaps it works different stabilizer muscles, but that’s the best I can come up with.

100% agree on the Rows/Pull-Ups/Deadlifts for back development though.

11

[quote]Quasi-Tech wrote:
This may be a stupid question, but its been one I’ve been considering this past week Professor X…

Are Pulldowns useful as a separate exercise when you can do the same variations via Pull-Ups? Wide grip, close grip, neutral grip, supinated, etc.

It appears to be the same movement, just one where a weight moves and another where the body (and weight attached) moves. Perhaps it works different stabilizer muscles, but that’s the best I can come up with.

100% agree on the Rows/Pull-Ups/Deadlifts for back development though.[/quote]

Wtf? Everything you mentioned is a completely different exercise. Close grip pull-ups will work different muscles than wide-grip pull-ups will work different muscles than close-grip pulldowns, etc.

There is a time and place for all exercises. Experiment and decide which combinations work best for you. It’s really that simple.

12

Perhaps I wasn’t clear with my question/statement. I understand that you work different muscles in the back when you do a wide-grip pull-up vs a close-grip pull-up, and when you do neutral grip versus supinated, etc. etc.

My question is whether the pull-up varies greatly from the pull-down as the motion itself (from my perspective as far as I can tell) is the same. I also rarely see lifters (and this is limited experience mind you) do pull-downs if they are able to do pull-ups. Not a good source of evidence, or my “proof” just something I’ve noticed.

Hope that clarifies, although maybe I am mis-reading your response, as opposed to you mis-understanding mine.

13

[quote]Quasi-Tech wrote:
Perhaps I wasn’t clear with my question/statement. I understand that you work different muscles in the back when you do a wide-grip pull-up vs a close-grip pull-up, and when you do neutral grip versus supinated, etc. etc.

My question is whether the pull-up varies greatly from the pull-down as the motion itself (from my perspective as far as I can tell) is the same. I also rarely see lifters (and this is limited experience mind you) do pull-downs if they are able to do pull-ups. Not a good source of evidence, or my “proof” just something I’ve noticed.

Hope that clarifies, although maybe I am mis-reading your response, as opposed to you mis-understanding mine.[/quote]

I think I understood your post fine, but did a poor job of explaining the answer. I am, of course, not the be-all, end-all of back knowledge but I like to think I’ve learned a thing or two in my travels and from other lifters.

I fully believe that one of the movements is not a substitute for the other. Or, as you ask, yes, I believe the pull-up does vary to a somewhat substantial degree from pull-downs. Now, I do think that the two exercises can be rotated in and out of a split with similar intentions. For instance, let’s say you do back thickness first, so you get all your heavy rowing, reads, whatever out of the way first. Then, say you’re going to do back width exercises next. A pull-up or pull-down may be used here, but that’s kind of where the generalizations stop.

Again, there’s just so many different handles / angles / tempos / etc that can greatly vary the way a pull-up OR pull-down can be done. Some things will target the mid-back, where others will tend to hit the lats more squarely.

So, IDK man. It’s not a “one-size fits all” answer. Ultimately yes, they are both back width exercises and ultimately yes, if you enjoy pull-ups and reap a great reward from them then you may not need to do pull-downs, but I also very little reason not to just do both and become a beast at both types. :slight_smile:

14

[quote]SSC wrote:
Wow, informative thread.

I have learned that loose-form DB rows and partial deadlifts have not been around for decades.[/quote]

It’s a good thing that the point was they should know the damned deadlift and dumbbell row real good in the first place.

15

don’t wanna hijack the 3ead at all,

just one question:

if ( hypothetically ) I do just rows (db a/o bb)for my back, getting a lot stronger,eat well&big,

my back become thicker or wider?

no joke,thanx for replies (if any)

Mikael

16

[quote]Professor X wrote:
It’s a good thing that the point was they should know the damned deadlift and dumbbell row real good in the first place.[/quote]

Tongue-in-cheek, man. Fact is someone can call dumbbell curls Flying Squirrel Ejaculatory Curls but at the end of the day, but if it’s a solid movement there’s no reason to discount it based on a “trademarked” title.

[quote]buzza wrote:
don’t wanna hijack the 3ead at all,

just one question:

if ( hypothetically ) I do just rows (db a/o bb)for my back, getting a lot stronger,eat well&big,

my back become thicker or wider?

no joke,thanx for replies (if any)

Mikael [/quote]

All things being equal, and with actual physiological implications taken into account, one would like get a thicker back from only doing heavy rows. But that’s not to say that that’s actually an absolute dogma by any means, I’m sure width would be accrued as well but not necessarily at the fastest rate possible.

IMO.

K, hitting back now.

17

-Pull ups (wide grip, narrow grip, neutral grip) not Rack Chins. Add weight if necessary.

-Either DB/BB rows. I’ve done Barbell rows for most of last year, but lately the poundage is making me tax my lower back and not letting me focus on hitting my lats, so I switched to DB rows (not Kroc Rows… DB Row sets of 8-12 reps)

-Wide grip pull downs

-I’ve also found that doing bent over flys primarily for the rear delt or reverse pec dec flys have also hit my upper lats to an extent.

-One arm cable rows really let me dig in and feel the lower lats working.

-Deadlifting. I’ve rack pulled much more than I’ve deadlifted but the time under tension just isn’t there.

For all movements do 3-5 sets of 8-12 reps.

IMO the most important thing is to establish a good mind-muscle connection during these movements. For example don’t just focus on bringing the bar down to you during pulldowns, but actively use the lats to pull and not the arms.

18

I don’t have problem with doing too much of a fancy stuff, because free weights are all I have access to. I mentioned kroc rows and rack chins, because that’s what I’ve been doing lately. I used to do db rows with minimum range of motion at the top and relatively too heavy weight, and I don’t have to say that it wasn’t good at all. Then I heard of kroc rows and I started doing them, more reps and full rom with a stretch at the bottom and my back improved over past few months. So I think I’m doing all the basics, except pull up. We have pull up bar, but it’s very narrow. + I’m very weak at pull ups, I can do maybe 5 with my bw. And rack chins allowed me to do 15 reps with deep stretch and I could add weight if I wanted to.

My question is: I know a pull up/down movement is very important, but at least do I hit every muscle in my back doing db pullovers, db rows, barbell rows, deadlifts and shruggs? We’ll probably buy a pull down machine but not now. (I know it’s not just for pull downs, but I have trouble with translation and I don’t know how you call it).

19

[quote]kox wrote:
My question is: I know a pull up/down movement is very important, but at least do I hit every muscle in my back doing db pullovers, db rows, barbell rows, deadlifts and shruggs? We’ll probably buy a pull down machine but not now. (I know it’s not just for pull downs, but I have trouble with translation and I don’t know how you call it).[/quote]

You don’t necessarily work any muscle EFFECTIVELY with any exercise. Form and MMC figure in heavily. Based on that list of exercises, it sounds like you could potentially take care of all the muscle groups that make up the back. However, the back is comprised of a lot of smaller muscle groups and subtle differences in form on an exercise can make that exercise target/fail to target a given muscle group.

People on the internet can’t confirm that those exercises actually ARE working all of your back muscles. That’s up to you- if parts of your back don’t feel worked at the end of a session, you need to figure out why and modify the way you’re doing exercises or pick new ones to fix it.

Give those exercises a try for at least a couple weeks, and then come back and let us know if any parts of your back feel like they aren’t getting work. Then we’ll be able to suggest form tweaks, different exercises, etc to cover any holes in muscle recruitment. You need to put some effort in first, we can argue theoretical things all day but it won’t really matter if your execution is off.

20

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Shontayne wrote:

Furthermore, I think you would be naive to only focus on the ‘basic’ exercises. [/quote]

? naive to focus on the shit that has built the most huge backs in history like dumbbell/barbell rows, t-bar rows, pull downs, pull ups, deads and any other sort of row. How is that “naive”? Also, aside from doing HS rows also, that is pretty much all I did with the exception of deadlifts for most of that time and my back isn’t exactly one of the small ones here.

What I was getting at was newbs thinking that a “rack pull” or a “kroc row” somehow needs to be top focus at the expense of the basics that have been around for decades. Doing the newest shit doesn’t mean the best results. Your work ethic is most important.[/quote]

Not really understanding your post.

You say that you built your back with HS rows and you are saying someone should focus on the basics?