I know (reportedly) that Adam Archuleta, a safety who weighed 223, benched 225 31 times and hit a max for 530. No video record of the lift, just what was reported from the football websites…
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]mbdix wrote:
What you are saying here is that he couldn’t bench 6 hundo. That means everyone in that room knew he couldn’t bench 6 hundo. “Well, fuck it, even though we have all these white girls with big asses that we could be banging right now. Lets make some bullshit video starting with 6-hundo+35lbs and work our way up to 7 hundo. Maybe we can get famous from this?” “Wait a second we are rich, and famous already. And pretty much every club, bar, resturaunt we go to we get treated like royalty…fuck it lets make this bullshit video anyways” “Maybe there is a “fanboy” out there who will believe Larry Allen might be able to bench 6 hundo even though he might be getting some help with 7 hundo” [/quote]
That is exactly what I am saying. This is nothing more than bullshit weight room ego stroking and to your point, if I were a GM and I saw this video, heads would roll in my S&C department. Not to mention, if you don’t notice the guys on the end helping and the significant change in bar speed after the bounce especially on the second lift, then you are sticking your head in a hole for the sake of not wanting to see the fairly obvious truth.
As I said before, he is strong as hell, but he aint 635 strong and I highly question if he is 600 strong. [/quote]
Look, I don’t know what to tell you? I usually see things as they are. If I have doubts I admit it. If my favorite team has a call go against them and it was the right call, I admit it. I think the middle spotter might help some. I don’t know how much? I don’t think Allen is getting in excess of a hundo poundos of help. That is what I believe. I think he is 6 hundo plus bench presser.
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
I know (reportedly) that Adam Archuleta, a safety who weighed 223, benched 225 31 times and hit a max for 530. No video record of the lift, just what was reported from the football websites…[/quote]
There is a video of the lift, and his spotters had their hands on the bar the whole time. See a pattern? It was posted here years back. Archuletta is a beast, but he’s more like mid 4-s.
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
I know (reportedly) that Adam Archuleta, a safety who weighed 223, benched 225 31 times and hit a max for 530. No video record of the lift, just what was reported from the football websites…[/quote]
There is a video of the lift, and his spotters had their hands on the bar the whole time. See a pattern? It was posted here years back. Archuletta is a beast, but he’s more like mid 4-s.[/quote]
He’s strong as hell no doubt. One of the strongest pound for pound, but yeah, I was a tad skeptical at 530 without seeing the video with my own eyes.
Lets say Allen could hit 600 and we know it was raw and he’s clean since the players are always tested for PEDS… Where would that put him with the elite power lifters? There is maybe only 10 guys that can do that raw, right?
AND… Larry is 6’3" with a damn 78" reach!!! Talk about a bad disadvantage for powerlifting! The typical bencher is going to have a big gut a short arms.
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
I know (reportedly) that Adam Archuleta, a safety who weighed 223, benched 225 31 times and hit a max for 530. No video record of the lift, just what was reported from the football websites…[/quote]
There is a video of the lift, and his spotters had their hands on the bar the whole time. See a pattern? It was posted here years back. Archuletta is a beast, but he’s more like mid 4-s.[/quote]
He’s strong as hell no doubt. One of the strongest pound for pound, but yeah, I was a tad skeptical at 530 without seeing the video with my own eyes.
Lets say Allen could hit 600 and we know it was raw and he’s clean since the players are always tested for PEDS… Where would that put him with the elite power lifters? There is maybe only 10 guys that can do that raw, right?
AND… Larry is 6’3" with a damn 78" reach!!! Talk about a bad disadvantage for powerlifting! The typical bencher is going to have a big gut a short arms.
[/quote]
You were being facetious about them being clean, right…?
Of course.
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
Of course. [/quote]
Ok. For the sake of this discussion we’ll say he can hit 6-hundo in that setting. Now, not only are we taking away the bounce, we’re forcing him to control the weight, pause, keep his ass on the bench and press on a command. At that point that 6 (which he couldn’t hit in the first place) is now mid to high 4’s.
Also, someone saying “I usually see things as they are” is an idiot. We don’t see things as they are. We see things as we perceive them to be. Perceptions are subjective. But, when your perceptions are generally regarded as “inaccurate” at best, it might be time to reevaluate the way you look at things.
It’s very sad, but unless the team has a strength coach who was literally an ex-powerlifter or something, the state of lifting amongst football players remains pretty much the exact same from high school through the pros.
I train at a gym that collaborates with the local high schools to provide extra training for the student athletes. It’s pretty cool actually, and the kids are very nice, but mother of god I cannot tell you how many kids have told me they can bench 350 and squat 500, often for a double. I mean pretty much fuckin all of them. Strangely they never seem to mention the deadlift; that’s a tough one to bullshit I guess 
Let me describe these lifts to you. 350 on the bar, there is a shoulder saver pad on it (2 inches thick), kid gets a lift off, 350 in his hands for less than a second, the weight plummets precipitously under no semblance of control, smashes into his chest, the shoulder saver pad is the only thing stopping his ribcage from shattering, it also acts as a sort of trampoline, the weight bounces massively, his butt immediately shoots a foot off the bench, the spotter deadlifts the bar off of him and racks it. GREAT BENCH DUDE THAT WAS ALL YOU
There is zero exaggeration there. And the kid is so delusional he actually believes he can bench 350.
The squat. 500 on the bar, kid unracks it, looks like he’s about to die, pushes his butt back somewhat so that his knees are slightly bent, guy standing behind him is in full bear hug mode squatting with him, guys on each side grab the bar, all 4 men move the weight back into the rack. NICE SQUAT DUDE EASY
My training partner and I actually caught one of these kids alone without his dumb and dumber lifting entourage once. He was benching and so were we, so we invited him to work in with us evilgrin.jpg. He said he has done 315 on multiple occasions. Okay cool, we’ll all three work up to that.
He goes for the shoulder saver, “No, you don’t need that.” we tell him. “Oh, uh, yeah okay.” We get to 225, and he struggles to bounce up 4 with his ass a mile high. He seems confused that my hands never touched the bar. “Man, I’m uh, just not feelin it today I guess.” He says as he walks away. Yeah you’re not feelin it any day dude. For fuck’s sake…
Now I’m sure it’s not THAT bad when they’re older, but this is how football players grow up, and unfortunately most of them never actually grow out of it. It takes a kind of brute strength I can’t even fathom to do what Allen did with 700 on that bench, but I hope no one ever makes the mistake of comparing football players apples to apples with strength athletes, because with the removal of the spotter, having to keep the butt down, and having to pause, all the sudden that number drops by over 200lbs. Still the strongest guy at the barbeque, but not someone you should be mentioning in the same sentence with the likes of Vincent Dizenzo.
[quote]csulli wrote:
It’s very sad, but unless the team has a strength coach who was literally an ex-powerlifter or something, the state of lifting amongst football players remains pretty much the exact same from high school through the pros.
I train at a gym that collaborates with the local high schools to provide extra training for the student athletes. It’s pretty cool actually, and the kids are very nice, but mother of god I cannot tell you how many kids have told me they can bench 350 and squat 500, often for a double. I mean pretty much fuckin all of them. Strangely they never seem to mention the deadlift; that’s a tough one to bullshit I guess
Let me describe these lifts to you. 350 on the bar, there is a shoulder saver pad on it (2 inches thick), kid gets a lift off, 350 in his hands for less than a second, the weight plummets precipitously under no semblance of control, smashes into his chest, the shoulder saver pad is the only thing stopping his ribcage from shattering, it also acts as a sort of trampoline, the weight bounces massively, his butt immediately shoots a foot off the bench, the spotter deadlifts the bar off of him and racks it. GREAT BENCH DUDE THAT WAS ALL YOU
There is zero exaggeration there. And the kid is so delusional he actually believes he can bench 350.
The squat. 500 on the bar, kid unracks it, looks like he’s about to die, pushes his butt back somewhat so that his knees are slightly bent, guy standing behind him is in full bear hug mode squatting with him, guys on each side grab the bar, all 4 men move the weight back into the rack. NICE SQUAT DUDE EASY
My training partner and I actually caught one of these kids alone without his dumb and dumber lifting entourage once. He was benching and so were we, so we invited him to work in with us evilgrin.jpg. He said he has done 315 on multiple occasions. Okay cool, we’ll all three work up to that.
He goes for the shoulder saver, “No, you don’t need that.” we tell him. “Oh, uh, yeah okay.” We get to 225, and he struggles to bounce up 4 with his ass a mile high. He seems confused that my hands never touched the bar. “Man, I’m uh, just not feelin it today I guess.” He says as he walks away. Yeah you’re not feelin it any day dude. For fuck’s sake…
Now I’m sure it’s not THAT bad when they’re older, but this is how football players grow up, and unfortunately most of them never actually grow out of it. It takes a kind of brute strength I can’t even fathom to do what Allen did with 700 on that bench, but I hope no one ever makes the mistake of comparing football players apples to apples with strength athletes, because with the removal of the spotter, having to keep the butt down, and having to pause, all the sudden that number drops by over 200lbs. Still the strongest guy at the barbeque, but not someone you should be mentioning in the same sentence with the likes of Vincent Dizenzo.[/quote]
Cool story, brah.
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
Cool story, brah.[/quote]
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
Of course. [/quote]
Ok. For the sake of this discussion we’ll say he can hit 6-hundo in that setting. Now, not only are we taking away the bounce, we’re forcing him to control the weight, pause, keep his ass on the bench and press on a command. At that point that 6 (which he couldn’t hit in the first place) is now mid to high 4’s.
Also, someone saying “I usually see things as they are” is an idiot. We don’t see things as they are. We see things as we perceive them to be. Perceptions are subjective. But, when your perceptions are generally regarded as “inaccurate” at best, it might be time to reevaluate the way you look at things. [/quote]
I was never trying to compare him to pro power lifters. And their rules. Dude can lay down on a bench with over 6 hundo on the bar, touch his chest with the bar and lock out the weight. I don’t give a shit about all this other shit. You can call me whatever you want dude.
[quote]mbdix wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
Of course. [/quote]
Ok. For the sake of this discussion we’ll say he can hit 6-hundo in that setting. Now, not only are we taking away the bounce, we’re forcing him to control the weight, pause, keep his ass on the bench and press on a command. At that point that 6 (which he couldn’t hit in the first place) is now mid to high 4’s.
Also, someone saying “I usually see things as they are” is an idiot. We don’t see things as they are. We see things as we perceive them to be. Perceptions are subjective. But, when your perceptions are generally regarded as “inaccurate” at best, it might be time to reevaluate the way you look at things. [/quote]
I was never trying to compare him to pro power lifters. And their rules. Dude can lay down on a bench with over 6 hundo on the bar, touch his chest with the bar and lock out the weight. I don’t give a shit about all this other shit. You can call me whatever you want dude. [/quote]
With three other grown men holding on and helping, he sure can.
[quote]csulli wrote:
high school bullshit lifts rant…[/quote]
That’s pretty much how it is.
STORY TIME!!!
Last week at the gym, there was a high school kid in the squat rack next to me. He couldn’t have weighed more than 150 lbs, and I feel like that’s being generous. He puts 135 on the bar and performs some legitimate squats. 185 and his depth is suspect. 225 becomes a quarter squat for a few reps. Then he loads 275, and does the shakiest, knee-caving quarter squats I think I’ve ever seen.
So I talk to him for a minute (he approached me about his routine in general), and I suggest doing a lot of rep work at significantly lower weights, ensuring good depth on every rep. He then tells me that this is his first time squatting in a few months, and that a year ago he could squat 405 (so I guess when he was 15 years old, weighing 130 pounds).
I didn’t call him out, because there’s no point, but we all know exactly what this means. A) He probably did not actually put 8 plates on the bar. 315 is probably more accurate. B) He did not go anywhere near depth, although he swore he went deep. He actually told me he took 405 ass to grass. C) he had 5 bros around him telling him what a great lift it was.
And there’s my cool story.
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
high school bullshit lifts rant…[/quote]
That’s pretty much how it is.
STORY TIME!!!
Last week at the gym, there was a high school kid in the squat rack next to me. He couldn’t have weighed more than 150 lbs, and I feel like that’s being generous. He puts 135 on the bar and performs some legitimate squats. 185 and his depth is suspect. 225 becomes a quarter squat for a few reps. Then he loads 275, and does the shakiest, knee-caving quarter squats I think I’ve ever seen.
So I talk to him for a minute (he approached me about his routine in general), and I suggest doing a lot of rep work at significantly lower weights, ensuring good depth on every rep. He then tells me that this is his first time squatting in a few months, and that a year ago he could squat 405 (so I guess when he was 15 years old, weighing 130 pounds).[/quote]
Just a heads up…but there was a time when I would have thought like you and might have said something.
I grew past that.
One, there isn’t thing wrong with doing a “shaky max weight” move especially if it is at the end of a workout and you are trying to push yourself to that next level.
Two, you focused on his statement of how much he used to lift…when that really doesn’t matter at all.
Just differences in perspective. I personally, after sustaining an injury, would be pissed if someone stopped me to tell me I need to drop the weight because my last set was shaky. That’s how you push more weight…not by staying in the comfort zone.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
high school bullshit lifts rant…[/quote]
That’s pretty much how it is.
STORY TIME!!!
Last week at the gym, there was a high school kid in the squat rack next to me. He couldn’t have weighed more than 150 lbs, and I feel like that’s being generous. He puts 135 on the bar and performs some legitimate squats. 185 and his depth is suspect. 225 becomes a quarter squat for a few reps. Then he loads 275, and does the shakiest, knee-caving quarter squats I think I’ve ever seen.
So I talk to him for a minute (he approached me about his routine in general), and I suggest doing a lot of rep work at significantly lower weights, ensuring good depth on every rep. He then tells me that this is his first time squatting in a few months, and that a year ago he could squat 405 (so I guess when he was 15 years old, weighing 130 pounds).[/quote]
Just a heads up…but there was a time when I would have thought like you and might have said something.
I grew past that.
One, there isn’t thing wrong with doing a “shaky max weight” move especially if it is at the end of a workout and you are trying to push yourself to that next level.
Two, you focused on his statement of how much he used to lift…when that really doesn’t matter at all.
Just differences in perspective. I personally, after sustaining an injury, would be pissed if someone stopped me to tell me I need to drop the weight because my last set was shaky. That’s how you push more weight…not by staying in the comfort zone.[/quote]
This isn’t Johnnie Jackson coming back from an injury, this is a kid who’s most likely going to hurt himself eventually, because he’s trying to use weights literally 2x heavier than he can actually handle.
[quote]csulli wrote:
This isn’t Johnnie Jackson coming back from an injury, this is a kid who’s most likely going to hurt himself eventually, because he’s trying to use weights literally 2x heavier than he can actually handle.[/quote]
Dude, I get that…but if he was able to get a “shaky quarter rep” that is usually how you get to doing that weight for full reps. It just takes time. That is how weak skinny guys get really big quickly when they start…that and a lot of food on hand.
I can understand the “risk of injury” angle, but there is no doubt that this is how you get strong…not by sticking with the weight you can always do with great form.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
This isn’t Johnnie Jackson coming back from an injury, this is a kid who’s most likely going to hurt himself eventually, because he’s trying to use weights literally 2x heavier than he can actually handle.[/quote]
Dude, I get that…but if he was able to get a “shaky quarter rep” that is usually how you get to doing that weight for full reps. It just takes time. That is how weak skinny guys get really big quickly when they start…that and a lot of food on hand.
I can understand the “risk of injury” angle, but there is no doubt that this is how you get strong…not by sticking with the weight you can always do with great form.[/quote]
Well I guess you could go at it like that, Paul Anderson style lol. I think most people do up the weight by always working through full range of motion, but you can use ROM progression if you know how to do it right.
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
This isn’t Johnnie Jackson coming back from an injury, this is a kid who’s most likely going to hurt himself eventually, because he’s trying to use weights literally 2x heavier than he can actually handle.[/quote]
Dude, I get that…but if he was able to get a “shaky quarter rep” that is usually how you get to doing that weight for full reps. It just takes time. That is how weak skinny guys get really big quickly when they start…that and a lot of food on hand.
I can understand the “risk of injury” angle, but there is no doubt that this is how you get strong…not by sticking with the weight you can always do with great form.[/quote]
Well I guess you could go at it like that, Paul Anderson style lol. I think most people do up the weight by always working through full range of motion, but you can use ROM progression if you know how to do it right.[/quote]
Hey, I know what worked for me…and it damn sure wasn’t trying to make each rep perfect.
Most of the guys I see like that limit their own progress because they stay in that comfort zone.
The entire reason I can curl what I do now with great form…is because of all of those years pushing for more than that with “not so great form”.
You have to build that strength up and doing perfect reps and hardly the way to go about that unless you are trying to go slow on purpose.
I see people discussing form a lot here and you can see the thickness of the guys who DON’T think like that.
Much of my training now would look great in form…but that took time…and I didn’t get there using that much weight by always using perfect form.
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
high school bullshit lifts rant…[/quote]
That’s pretty much how it is.
STORY TIME!!!
Last week at the gym, there was a high school kid in the squat rack next to me. He couldn’t have weighed more than 150 lbs, and I feel like that’s being generous. He puts 135 on the bar and performs some legitimate squats. 185 and his depth is suspect. 225 becomes a quarter squat for a few reps. Then he loads 275, and does the shakiest, knee-caving quarter squats I think I’ve ever seen.
[stuff]
And there’s my cool story.[/quote]
My cool story:
Same situation as flip, except I’m in college.
Guy gets to 225, starts quarter squat, completely collapses at about the 45 degree mark in the sit back. Falls straight down, with his back perfectly straight. Butt hits ground, bar falls with shoulders then immediately (thank God) falls backward off him. Would have been horrific if it had fallen forward.
Somewhat incredibly, the guy only suffered a severely damaged ego. When I saw it, my immediate reaction was total horror and my first coherent thought was clearing the area for the paramedics.
Jesus…people need to learn what the hell they’re doing.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
high school bullshit lifts rant…[/quote]
That’s pretty much how it is.
STORY TIME!!!
Last week at the gym, there was a high school kid in the squat rack next to me. He couldn’t have weighed more than 150 lbs, and I feel like that’s being generous. He puts 135 on the bar and performs some legitimate squats. 185 and his depth is suspect. 225 becomes a quarter squat for a few reps. Then he loads 275, and does the shakiest, knee-caving quarter squats I think I’ve ever seen.
So I talk to him for a minute (he approached me about his routine in general), and I suggest doing a lot of rep work at significantly lower weights, ensuring good depth on every rep. He then tells me that this is his first time squatting in a few months, and that a year ago he could squat 405 (so I guess when he was 15 years old, weighing 130 pounds).[/quote]
Just a heads up…but there was a time when I would have thought like you and might have said something.
I grew past that.
One, there isn’t thing wrong with doing a “shaky max weight” move especially if it is at the end of a workout and you are trying to push yourself to that next level.
Two, you focused on his statement of how much he used to lift…when that really doesn’t matter at all.
Just differences in perspective. I personally, after sustaining an injury, would be pissed if someone stopped me to tell me I need to drop the weight because my last set was shaky. That’s how you push more weight…not by staying in the comfort zone.[/quote]
First off: my advice was solicited. Maybe I wasn’t clear on that. We talked for awhile about various programming aspects apart from the squat, and I shared my experiences in other areas as well. And my advice was based on things I’ve done in the gym, things that have worked for me, and things that haven’t.
The reason I talked about what he claimed to lift before was based on some previous posts in this thread, about how people exaggerate their lifts, particularly high school football players. And you’re right, what he used to lift has no bearing on his lifting now. That’s why it’s not something I brought up WITH HIM, I simply mentioned it in the context of this thread.
As to the question of what makes someone bigger and stronger, specifically regarding leg development: I used to do exactly what I saw him doing. That’s how I trained my squat 10 years ago. I remember the first time I ‘squatted’ 315. I was not strong, nor big. And training for heavy quarter squats did not improve my lifts, I just kept moving the weight up and decreasing the difficulty (ROM) of the movement.
A couple years ago, I dedicated myself to squatting deep, and for more volume. In my opinion, to get bigger AND stronger, an emphasis on volume through a decent ROM is ideal for quad/hamstring growth. My own results have been enough to convince me of that, and my experiences are shared by other more experienced lifters.
I’m also not saying that limited ROM lifts don’t have a place in a program. I’m saying the bread and butter, particularly for a young athlete, should be full ROM squats, assuming no previous injury history. Since I saw him complete full ROM squats at a lighter weight, I knew he had the proper mobility to perform them.
You mentioned in a subsequent post that people start with a quarter squat and work into more depth at that weight as they progress. I believe this theory as some potential for a squat, and a lot of potential for the deadlift. I know the pwnisher is a big proponent of this style of training regarding the deadlift. But I don’t train the squat this way, and I don’t feel comfortable telling people to do things that simply haven’t worked for me.