531 and Back Injuries

Training 5/3/1
21

I think they’re very useful for 2 kinds of people:
The first type of people who benefit from DOH are people getting back into DL after an injury. It’s a good way to grease the groove and get some rep work in without hurting yourself because your grip will fail first. When you feel you are back to full strength or at least out of the woods in injury, go back to mixed grip or straps or however you did them before. When I came back from a hernia I kept my DOH pretty light and did a very slow and deliberate eccentric phase to help bring back muscle mass and stability.

The second type of people who benefit from DOH are in-season sport athletes who do a lot of running. DOH will ensure you don’t over exert your hamstrings in the weight room and be too tight to sprint. Actually, in this scenario, Matt Rhodes recommends dropping the bar after each rep (No eccentric at all) to get the explosive benefits without overworking the muscle.

But for you, I would stick with DOH with a deliberate eccentric phase while coming back from injury.

22

[quote]factsaboutrats wrote:
My deal with these is, how useful are they if you can pull 440, 405x5 or 315x20, then you go down to 275 or 300 DOH?[/quote]

The key here is volume. You’ll still build muscle with those light weights is you are getting enough reps. I do DOH as warm-up before every deadlift workout, finishing at 225 for 5 before switching grips(best mixed grip is 410x1). On a good day, I could probably do 8-10 reps at 225 DOH. I’m a girl, so I don’t know if my conversions will be accurate for most guys, but probably close enough that you can make a decent comparison with your numbers.

I also use around 225 with a mixed grip for my deficits for 3-5 x 10 after my main work sets and this has done wonders for my top end work (if you can hang on for 3x10, hanging on for one heavy rep is NO problem). Deficits could be a tweak to make the lighter weights “hard enough,” but not until your back has calmed down–can be easier to tweak the SI from a deficit, so use your best judgement.

Also read a good bit of advice a couple of posts up–if your squat goes up, your deadlift goes up, so don’t worry about how much weight you deadlift while your back is healing if you can still squat. The fact that you deadlift at all will keep you in the groove for when you’re ready to start killing it again.

23

[quote]Rave2.0 wrote:
@factsaboutrats -
Sorry about your back. I am 46 and been doing 5-3-1 since '07-'08 - close to when it was first released. I have also been dealing with low back pain and injuries for decades - which probably means you should not listen to me. AND…I recently tweeked my back AGAIN and am working around it. Two reasons to stop reading.

But here you go - if squats are fine - just squat. Use 3 workouts per week - 2 uppers and 1 lower. Or just use the 4th day as sq/dl accessory and do what you can do. I personally know bunches of strong lifters that do not dead lift at ALL. They squat and do DE squats and only pull in comp. Squats build the dead lifts. But… if you are like me and feel your total worth as a man is defined by your deads - you gotta do something, right? My advice is to drop the weight until you can do it without pain/ minimal pain. That is the beauty of Jim’s program. Go light, set rep records with the light weight, and rebuild it the right way - with perfect form. It is an opportunity to get it right with the ego out of the way - this happens to all of us - some of us often:) If you reset and go real light - loose your belt if you r using one and build the abs.[/quote]

This sounds like me in a nutshell. I’m probably going to do a combination of all of the above. My deal is, I can’t lay off the heavy(for me) deadlifts, because they are awesome. To lose my ability to pull with 4 plates is not something I really want to comprehend. Then again, walking around like a 90 yo cripple is not fun either.

The always elusive happy medium is what I need to reach.

Thanks for the post!

24

[quote]GraniteJack wrote:
I think they’re very useful for 2 kinds of people:
The first type of people who benefit from DOH are people getting back into DL after an injury. It’s a good way to grease the groove and get some rep work in without hurting yourself because your grip will fail first. When you feel you are back to full strength or at least out of the woods in injury, go back to mixed grip or straps or however you did them before. When I came back from a hernia I kept my DOH pretty light and did a very slow and deliberate eccentric phase to help bring back muscle mass and stability.

The second type of people who benefit from DOH are in-season sport athletes who do a lot of running. DOH will ensure you don’t over exert your hamstrings in the weight room and be too tight to sprint. Actually, in this scenario, Matt Rhodes recommends dropping the bar after each rep (No eccentric at all) to get the explosive benefits without overworking the muscle.

But for you, I would stick with DOH with a deliberate eccentric phase while coming back from injury.[/quote]

With all due respect, a deliberate negative on a Deadlift is the last thing I want to do. I feel like it’s the most dangerous part of that lift. I unhinge the hips and drop it pretty fast under control.

Last night I went with DOH deads,
95x10,135x8,185x8,225x8,275x5,300x2,285x2, 275x5,5,5,4,2
What if found is that when the grip breaks down, your whole form breaks down. My back rounds, the rep becomes real slow, like it’s ME. New blisters form millimeters away from already huge and painful callouses.
Pain went away immediately after, it often feels like something got moved back into place. This morning is another story, however. I don’t think I made it worse, but the normal walking around pain is pretty bad.

I should mention that I have a sit down office job, and I’ve had it for 15-16 years. Not helpful for a back condition.

But it’s all good, thanks for the post!

I’m still not sure about them.

25

[quote]l-bomb10 wrote:

[quote]factsaboutrats wrote:
My deal with these is, how useful are they if you can pull 440, 405x5 or 315x20, then you go down to 275 or 300 DOH?[/quote]

The key here is volume. You’ll still build muscle with those light weights is you are getting enough reps. I do DOH as warm-up before every deadlift workout, finishing at 225 for 5 before switching grips(best mixed grip is 410x1)
The fact that you deadlift at all will keep you in the groove for when you’re ready to start killing it again.[/quote]

Good stuff this. I also always DOH for warm ups up to 275.

You last sentence is the key, thanks!

26

I’m definitely empathetic to your situation as I have chronic back pain from a prior injury. What has worked for me personally was switching to a DOH for a while, because as others have mentioned your grip strength will limit how much you can pull. I reset every rep. I don’t emphasize the eccentric either, I don’t see the purpose of that when you’re dealing with back problems. I always always wear a belt on my two heaviest sets. I feel that it helps to support me and also gives me some mental comfort when doing the lift.

About two cycles ago I began incorporating RDL’s (once / week) and being super-religious about my core work and every session includes Lower Back work (usually back raises), obliques, and abdominal work. Mobility / stretching has also become essential and not just stretching my lower back but also performing myofascial release with a Lac ball on my glutes. Lastly, I love my Inversion table to help decompress my spine.

27

[quote]factsaboutrats wrote:

[quote]Rave2.0 wrote:
@factsaboutrats -
Sorry about your back. I am 46 and been doing 5-3-1 since '07-'08 - close to when it was first released. I have also been dealing with low back pain and injuries for decades - which probably means you should not listen to me. AND…I recently tweeked my back AGAIN and am working around it. Two reasons to stop reading.

But here you go - if squats are fine - just squat. Use 3 workouts per week - 2 uppers and 1 lower. Or just use the 4th day as sq/dl accessory and do what you can do. I personally know bunches of strong lifters that do not dead lift at ALL. They squat and do DE squats and only pull in comp. Squats build the dead lifts. But… if you are like me and feel your total worth as a man is defined by your deads - you gotta do something, right? My advice is to drop the weight until you can do it without pain/ minimal pain. That is the beauty of Jim’s program. Go light, set rep records with the light weight, and rebuild it the right way - with perfect form. It is an opportunity to get it right with the ego out of the way - this happens to all of us - some of us often:) If you reset and go real light - loose your belt if you r using one and build the abs.[/quote]

This sounds like me in a nutshell. I’m probably going to do a combination of all of the above. My deal is, I can’t lay off the heavy(for me) deadlifts, because they are awesome. To lose my ability to pull with 4 plates is not something I really want to comprehend. Then again, walking around like a 90 yo cripple is not fun either.

The always elusive happy medium is what I need to reach.

Thanks for the post! [/quote]

Then, you need a new mentality if you want to lift in your 90’s.

Look, everyone here has a sob story to tell. In a nutshell, it hurts, you need to heal or it will come back worst, swallow your pride, work on getting better, who cares about a new PR, etc.

I felt like an idiot squatting the bar for 5x5. After 8 months of water running (that is the only exercise I could do), I was just happy to be back in the gym. And, those 8 months would never have happened if I would have been smart in the first place.

2 plates is better then no plates while in traction in the hospital.

Food for thought.

28

[quote]JFG wrote:

[quote]factsaboutrats wrote:

[quote]Rave2.0 wrote:
@factsaboutrats -
Sorry about your back. I am 46 and been doing 5-3-1 since '07-'08 - close to when it was first released. I have also been dealing with low back pain and injuries for decades - which probably means you should not listen to me. AND…I recently tweeked my back AGAIN and am working around it. Two reasons to stop reading.

But here you go - if squats are fine - just squat. Use 3 workouts per week - 2 uppers and 1 lower. Or just use the 4th day as sq/dl accessory and do what you can do. I personally know bunches of strong lifters that do not dead lift at ALL. They squat and do DE squats and only pull in comp. Squats build the dead lifts. But… if you are like me and feel your total worth as a man is defined by your deads - you gotta do something, right? My advice is to drop the weight until you can do it without pain/ minimal pain. That is the beauty of Jim’s program. Go light, set rep records with the light weight, and rebuild it the right way - with perfect form. It is an opportunity to get it right with the ego out of the way - this happens to all of us - some of us often:) If you reset and go real light - loose your belt if you r using one and build the abs.[/quote]

This sounds like me in a nutshell. I’m probably going to do a combination of all of the above. My deal is, I can’t lay off the heavy(for me) deadlifts, because they are awesome. To lose my ability to pull with 4 plates is not something I really want to comprehend. Then again, walking around like a 90 yo cripple is not fun either.

The always elusive happy medium is what I need to reach.

Thanks for the post! [/quote]

Then, you need a new mentality if you want to lift in your 90’s.

Look, everyone here has a sob story to tell. In a nutshell, it hurts, you need to heal or it will come back worst, swallow your pride, work on getting better, who cares about a new PR, etc.

I felt like an idiot squatting the bar for 5x5. After 8 months of water running (that is the only exercise I could do), I was just happy to be back in the gym. And, those 8 months would never have happened if I would have been smart in the first place.

2 plates is better then no plates while in traction in the hospital.

Food for thought.[/quote]

This I know in my head is the right answer.

Why is it so hard to implement when facing a loaded bar?

Hope all is well with your injury, what the hell happened?

29

I just finished with dealing with this. On my single rep set on 5/3/1 week last month (I’m about where you are on weight) I had to be stupid and attempted to grind out rep four even though rep three already showed signs of from breakdown. I let my hips hyperextend too much and heard a nice crack similar to when a chiro cracks your back.

I then lowered the weight and pretty much drove right to the chiropracter. Since I could still move it wasn’t structural but was unnerving. The chiro was able to adjust things which I’m convinced greatly aided healing. My next week was my deload week (lucky me) and was just enough time for things to heal up enough for the next cycle and 5/5/5 week.

For the cycle (which I completed today) I still deadlifted as well as added the normal increase but paid more attention to keeping my spine neutral and not letting my hips come forward on lockout. I had no problem doing things this way so it was just form breakdown. I also moved weighted chins until after deadlift (used to like to decompress my back before deadlifting for some reason).

Also, try recording your form. You will see if it goes to shit when the weight gets heavier. For me the issue isn’t so much on singles as it is on 5+ and to a lesser extend 3. Never thought 5 would be “endurance” work. It could have been some fatique from the weighted chins as well but at any rate I added some high rep sets with 135 on my off days in order to build up endurance (I sit at a computer all day as well).

Also, try spinal flossing if you haven’t done so already. I picked it up at a Poundstone deadlifting seminar and it really helps to free up the spine.

-M

30

[quote]ramadano wrote:
I just finished with dealing with this. On my single rep set on 5/3/1 week last month (I’m about where you are on weight) I had to be stupid and attempted to grind out rep four even though rep three already showed signs of from breakdown. I let my hips hyperextend too much and heard a nice crack similar to when a chiro cracks your back.

I then lowered the weight and pretty much drove right to the chiropracter. Since I could still move it wasn’t structural but was unnerving. The chiro was able to adjust things which I’m convinced greatly aided healing. My next week was my deload week (lucky me) and was just enough time for things to heal up enough for the next cycle and 5/5/5 week.

For the cycle (which I completed today) I still deadlifted as well as added the normal increase but paid more attention to keeping my spine neutral and not letting my hips come forward on lockout. I had no problem doing things this way so it was just form breakdown. I also moved weighted chins until after deadlift (used to like to decompress my back before deadlifting for some reason).

Also, try recording your form. You will see if it goes to shit when the weight gets heavier. For me the issue isn’t so much on singles as it is on 5+ and to a lesser extend 3. Never thought 5 would be “endurance” work. It could have been some fatique from the weighted chins as well but at any rate I added some high rep sets with 135 on my off days in order to build up endurance (I sit at a computer all day as well).

Also, try spinal flossing if you haven’t done so already. I picked it up at a Poundstone deadlifting seminar and it really helps to free up the spine.

-M
[/quote]

Spinal flossing??

31

Yep, I do it with my cornhole facing a wall (but not a mirrored wall). For anyone not named Jesse Jane, doing it in complete darkness is preferred.

As horrible as it looks, it really helps to get blood into the disks. I do that an foam roll and get now get back cracks most of the way down my spine just from doing this.

32

[quote]ramadano wrote:
Yep, I do it with my cornhole facing a wall (but not a mirrored wall). For anyone not named Jesse Jane, doing it in complete darkness is preferred.

As horrible as it looks, it really helps to get blood into the disks. I do that an foam roll and get now get back cracks most of the way down my spine just from doing this.
[/quote]

It’s called Cat/Cow. been around for about 3000 years. Can’t remember how to spell the Sanskrit name.

33

Thanks to everybody for the responses. I train by myself, so every comment from experienced people helps a lot.

Laying off and doing light work, like DOH deads and back raises seems to be the consensus, and that’s what I’m going to do. Even if I deadlift with 225 I’m usually double what most guys do in my Globo gym anyway!!

Besides,after the last DOH dead session, my pinkie and ring fingers all the way up my forearms are sore as hell, so I achieved a pretty good training stimulus!