21 Y/O Male - Advice Needed

Note to self: construction doesn’t guarantee muscle growth. Or fat loss. Or a toughened life outlook.

Most girls don’t care much about muscles. Some do, most don’t.

They’re like tits to guys…a nice bonus-and fun to look at and play with-but to anyone that matters, they aren’t the most important thing. If a girl is into you because of your muscles, that is not exactly a stable basis for a relationship.

Anyway, confidence is mental. It’s not a beard, or muscles, or music. People might treat you slightly differently when you are bearded or shouldered or can hold a tune, but it’s more in the look in your eye, your posture, and how you react to others.

Btw, thanks flipcollar for sharing your story. Someone asked and you were nice enough to indulge their curiosity, and I along with I’m sure many other readers found it interesting. Haters gonna hate.

[quote]dave670 wrote:
As a Taurus I tend to think of many things at a physical or external level, even though I am a genuine person at heart.
[/quote]

Am I the only one here who finds it mildly hilarious that out of nowhere, “as a Taurus” came out? Don’t get me wrong but dude, life sucks at times, deal with it. Granted, I’m 17 turning 18 and I don’t know jack shit but honestly, you sound like a whiny bitch. Maybe this is why “women don’t want you” and whatever. Grow a pair.

1 Like

[quote]Benanything wrote:

[quote]dave670 wrote:
As a Taurus I tend to think of many things at a physical or external level, even though I am a genuine person at heart.
[/quote]

Am I the only one here who finds it mildly hilarious that out of nowhere, “as a Taurus” came out? Don’t get me wrong but dude, life sucks at times, deal with it. Granted, I’m 17 turning 18 and I don’t know jack shit but honestly, you sound like a whiny bitch. Maybe this is why “women don’t want you” and whatever. Grow a pair.[/quote]

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
When men ask about women, I think they are asking about beautiful and popular women, because that’s usually who confused, horny, and young men want. They don’t actually think about …women …who will go for them in return. Perhaps OP is a realistic man who understands this.

What I will say for now to OP is:

  1. Do not be in ANYWAY ashamed of doing a MAN’s job. 2) If you are very concerned about your testosterone value, see a qualified urologist or endocrinologist who knows what they are doing, preferably one with a fellowship in andrology/fertility. 3) Get on a diet and go to the gym. 4) Live your life doing what you enjoy and make friends through this avenue, which will hopefully in turn lead to meeting women you will be interested in. 5) You can change some things about yourself, but you don’t have to change who you are to hold your head high and have some self-respect. No one has to be a muscular 6’4" with a huge bank account and high IQ to have self respect. 7) You can’t be something you’re not. [/quote]

Solid post, Brick.

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
When men ask about women, I think they are asking about beautiful and popular women, because that’s usually who confused, horny, and young men want. They don’t actually think about …women …who will go for them in return. Perhaps OP is a realistic man who understands this.

What I will say for now to OP is:

  1. Do not be in ANYWAY ashamed of doing a MAN’s job. 2) If you are very concerned about your testosterone value, see a qualified urologist or endocrinologist who knows what they are doing, preferably one with a fellowship in andrology/fertility. 3) Get on a diet and go to the gym. 4) Live your life doing what you enjoy and make friends through this avenue, which will hopefully in turn lead to meeting women you will be interested in. 5) You can change some things about yourself, but you don’t have to change who you are to hold your head high and have some self-respect. No one has to be a muscular 6’4" with a huge bank account and high IQ to have self respect. 7) You can’t be something you’re not. [/quote]

Solid post, Brick.
[/quote]

Thanks!

Wow, how did I not find this thread before now? Oh, I know, because I’ve never been in the ‘Get a Life’ forum before now…

Anyway, OP, you’ve gotten a lot of great advice here, both regarding your original somewhat vague question and regarding the other issues that have surfaced in the course of the thread. There has been one line of conversation that I see under the surface of what you’re saying, though, that hasn’t been explored.

It appears that a lot of your frustration has stemmed from a lack of success with the ladies, and there have been a few suggestions for how to work on your confidence in that arena. I especially like the advice to spend some time hanging out in a strip club and learn to talk to women in a controlled environment.

I’m curious about what your current interactions with the opposite sex are, though. Are you one of those guys who becomes a girl’s best friend and confidante, all the while hoping for something more, but never putting yourself out there and making your intentions known, and then bemoaning your fated descent into the dreaded ‘friend zone’? I’m not making any accusations, here, but I was ‘that guy’ early in my college life, before I woke up and realized what a horrible sort of person that was to be, and made myself step out of that victim mentality and take control of my life.

All the advice here about different ways to develop self-confidence are spot-on, but at the end of the day you have to just put yourself out there, not knowing what the other person’s reaction is going to be. It’s possible that you might be rebuffed, or even that you might lose a friend, but if you never take a risk because you’re too afraid of the consequences, you might as well just lock yourself in your room and let the world pass you by. It’s also possible that you’ll gain a girlfriend, or at least clear the air and move to a different place in your friendship once the cards are on the table. It’s not the end of the world, or even necessarily the end of a friendship, if she’s not interested in you ‘that way’. Now the awkwardness is gone, and you can treat her like a real person rather than continue on in a pseudo-friendship based on a lie. Take a chance, and don’t be afraid of failure. It’s not the end of the world, and it’s okay to fail any number of times. You only need to succeed once with the right person and you’ve found yourself in a relationship. Which is only the beginning, by the way.

One of the worst disservices guys do to girls is to treat them like this magical other species that they can’t comprehend. Sure, there are physical, emotional and hormonal differences, but people are people no matter what reproductive organs we were born with, and we all want basically the same things out of life. Treat them as people, the way you want to be treated, and be open and honest about your intentions (without being a jerk or coming across as desperate, of course).

One other thing - it’s already been mentioned before, but using words like faggot, pansy and fairy in a derogatory sense like that really doesn’t say good things about you. Look up Matt Kroc, now Janae Marie Kroc, to see what someone you might apply those labels to is capable of.

[quote]OTHSteve wrote:
Wow, how did I not find this thread before now? Oh, I know, because I’ve never been in the ‘Get a Life’ forum before now…
[/quote]

…it was originally posted in another sub-forum … it took a turn and got moved into GAL. So, yeah…

[quote]dave670 wrote:

We’re more alike than you know. I am, at present, a 5’6" 110 lb college dropout, pothead, and I do construction for my paycheck. No, this is not a joke.

…Actually, I do, because it’s the impulsiveness and aggressiveness hormone, as well as the body hair / beard growth hormone. All of these wouldn’t hurt me at present…

…My body has been through so much abuse over the years that I am afraid I have some permanent issues now.

[/quote]

Do you think weed use might be decreasing your motivation, drive, ambition? These are some of the positive things associated with young men. Pot tends to make people pretty happy sitting on the couch.

You mentioned dropping out of college. It’s not for everyone, but is there something you are interested in since you dislike your current job. A trade? An employable skill to learn? Quite a few men in my family are in the trades (electrician, skilled welder, appliance repair, mechanic…) These people all make more money than me, and I went to graduate school. :slight_smile: My cousin who is a mechanic has built a large business, with contracts to maintain fleet vehicles/trucks for large companies. He’s doing great.

You can think about some of this in two categories. Things You Can Change - Like gaining muscle or developing some confidence with weight training, and Things You Can’t Change - Like your height. Most of the things you’ve mentioned in this thread are things you can change. It’s hard to tell if you sound depressed of if some of what you’ve said is just a self-deprecating sense of humor. If you’re depressed, that’s also something you can change.

About self-confidence and a sense of humor - These things are positive to a point. BUT you don’t need to be the loud, gregarious, stand-up comedian guy, unless you really are that guy. And you don’t need to be so confident you’re arrogant. I married a more reserved, quiet guy. I’m more outgoing and bubbly and we balance each other. I’m not attracted to the loud, life of the party, center of attention person. Being approachable, being able to have the confidence to laugh at yourself and to be kind - Those are good things, but mostly just be yourself.

About meeting women - My niece is about your age and she moved to a new city to be a nanny over the summer. She didn’t know anyone there, but she hooked into a young adult church group and instantly had a social network. They were bowling, or having a BBQ, or going to see a movie all the time. Within a week of living there, she met young men who were asking her out and girls to hang out with. Maybe you already have a social network. It doesn’t have to be church, it could be a rock climbing group or whatever. IMO, these kinds of things give you more opportunity to meet women that you’d actually end up dating, develop confidence with girls, than going to strip clubs.

Disclaimer: I’ve never been in a strip club so I could be wrong about that but I doubt it. :wink:

And the divisive strip club post.

This is probably a horrible analogy.

My suggestion was basically like going to a sleazy used car dealership at the end of a season, when everyone’s trying to make their numbers, and their best car salesmen on the job, when you desperately need a new car. And then taking a test drive or two. And walking out without buying anything.

That’s basically the first half of it. It’s all about self control, and deliberately tempting yourself, to better understand and master yourself.

The second part is like figuring out how to sell them a bridge. You use that situation to learn the art of salesmanship.

They try to con you into a “really good deal” on a car, and instead they got the title to a bridge. Regardless of how you approach it – but especially if you’re perfectly genuine about it – it’s going to force you to see things from a different perspective and learn what works, what doesn’t work, and build some confidence in your ability to handle future situations.

But, sticking with the analogy, you don’t ever want to actually buy the car. You’re there to learn and practice self control and salesmanship, not to buy a car. Nobody should ever ever buy a car from them.

That confidence, the skills, the self-control, that’s all stuff that can be useful elsewhere in life, if applied intelligently. If he meets some wonderful girl, he’s going to be far better off if he’s not intimidated by her, and can keep cool and level-headed. He’ll be less likely to make the early mistakes that can cost him (e.g., clinginess, premature oversharing), and more likely to know the right things to say at the right times.

Of course, if she happens to be not-so-wonderful, he’s able to better see the warning signs and keep from falling into a trap.

[quote]LoRez wrote:
That confidence, the skills, the self-control, that’s all stuff that can be useful elsewhere in life, if applied intelligently. If he meets some wonderful girl, he’s going to be far better off if he’s not intimidated by her, and can keep cool and level-headed. He’ll be less likely to make the early mistakes that can cost him (e.g., clinginess, premature oversharing), and more likely to know the right things to say at the right times.

Of course, if she happens to be not-so-wonderful, he’s able to better see the warning signs and keep from falling into a trap.[/quote]

I honestly think that’s a great idea.

Hi 21-year-old pothead. You should probably start spending more time in strip clubs.

Do you see how crazy that sounds?

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
Hi 21-year-old pothead. You should probably start spending more time in strip clubs.

Do you see how crazy that sounds? [/quote]

I do. It was also earlier in the thread, before he’d presented a fuller picture of himself.

In the context of “I’m afraid of women, don’t know how to deal with them, but instead of figuring that out, maybe I should just go to the gym, or ‘fix’ my testosterone, or deepen my voice, or do anything else but actually deal with my own fears and insecurities and lack of confidence around women”, yeah, I think it made sense.

The whole “wow, there’s this really hot girl, and she’s actually talking to me, and she actually seems interested in me”… even if it’s mostly a facade… that actually does something for a guy’s confidence. Especially once he figures out how to string together coherent sentences. That cute barista he sees every once in awhile? She’s no longer quite as intimidating.

Sometimes I think it’s valuable to start at the bottom, and work up to increasingly more difficult challenges.

And sometimes I think it’s valuable to overexpose yourself to a stimulus, so you can keep everything in perspective.

But the biggest reason I cautioned “I’m not sure you’re quite ready to do this, but I think it’s a useful exercise”, was because until he’s developed a good sense of self, it can be easy to confuse the map for the territory. The skills will translate to reality, but the experiences won’t.

The trap to avoid is the pursuit of surrogate experiences.

Why travel when there’s TV and Instagram and Facebook? Why meet a guy when there’s romance novels? Why meet a girl when there’s porn? When we can expose ourself to idealized, filtered versions of reality, why experience the real thing?

If he can’t keep those things straight, he has no business going there.

I can see that talking to a stripper can build confidence (that’s kinda why they talk to you in the first place…), but I DON’T believe it teaches any useful skills regarding how to talk to a woman OUTSIDE of a strip club. If anything, it ingrains bad habits. You get zero feedback in terms of what actually works and what doesn’t. Strippers will laugh at your shitty jokes, pretend to pay attention when you talk about yourself too much, etc. None of this is good. It will make the OP feel worse when he realizes this in actual social settings. So when you say ‘the skills will translate to reality,’ I strongly disagree, unless the ONLY thing the OP is lacking in conversation is confidence. If content is a problem (it clearly is), then this could make things worse.

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
You get zero feedback in terms of what actually works and what doesn’t. Strippers will laugh at your shitty jokes, pretend to pay attention when you talk about yourself too much, etc.[/quote]
You’re right about that feedback; it’s certainly skewed.

But that’s not really the objective.

Initially, she’s pretending to pay attention, or laughing at your jokes, or whatever form of feigning interest, because she thinks it will translate into cash. It’s a business, and time is money. Any time she spends with you could be spent trying to earn money elsewhere.

So, if all you’re doing is talking about yourself too much and telling shitty jokes, as soon as she realizes you’re not going to spend any money, she’s gone.

But, if you’re able to engage her in a way where she actually enjoys herself around you – not pretend enjoy, but genuinely enjoys herself – then you’re doing something right. And that’s actually pretty straightforward feedback. If she’s choosing to spend time with you on your own merit, and not because you’re paying her to, then you’re figuring some things out. If she’s willing to forego other options because she’d rather be in your company, then you’re getting the right kind of feedback.

Essentially, she’s offering a physical experience for money, and instead, you offer her an emotional experience in exchange for her time. It’s not like some girl you meet on the street who might indulge you because she’s bored and she thinks you’re kind of cute or whatever; in this case she actually has something else (better?) to do with her time.

And honestly, most of that is simply “being fun to be around”, and the rest is just learning to read someone, pick up on emotional cues and direct a conversation. It’s learning how to pass through a facade and provide a compelling experience for the real person underneath.

It’s really nothing special when you figure it out… you just hang out with some girl, flirt with her, laugh together, enjoy each other’s company. Once it becomes natural, it’s really not a big deal. Yeah, she could be trying to make money off other guys, but why would she, she’s having fun hanging out with you. Sometimes having fun is more important.

Of course you can go through the normal “meet a girl; screw up; repeat” cycle, constantly improving on it, along with the time/money/heartbreak and slowly figure this stuff out. This is just one way to accelerate the learning process, without the kind of expectations and hurt that comes with a series of “real” relationships.

That’s basically the gist of what I’m trying to get to. Same knowledge, just a different way to acquire it.

That said, once you’ve actually begun a relationship, there’s a long list of new things that need to be figured out. Strip clubs won’t help with any of that. But he’s nowhere near that point now.

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
I can see that talking to a stripper can build confidence (that’s kinda why they talk to you in the first place…), but I DON’T believe it teaches any useful skills regarding how to talk to a woman OUTSIDE of a strip club. If anything, it ingrains bad habits. You get zero feedback in terms of what actually works and what doesn’t. Strippers will laugh at your shitty jokes, pretend to pay attention when you talk about yourself too much, etc. None of this is good. It will make the OP feel worse when he realizes this in actual social settings. So when you say ‘the skills will translate to reality,’ I strongly disagree, unless the ONLY thing the OP is lacking in conversation is confidence. If content is a problem (it clearly is), then this could make things worse.[/quote]

I agree with this. I also believe it is a bad idea because the dancers are in positions of control. I believe the last thing needed by a guy who is down on his interaction and understanding of women is this sort of situation.

I believe one of the characteristics of our present day mess of confused, lonely, womanless men is a situation in which women are constantly being genuflected to. Many have taken advantage of this with social media, in which they post pics on social media so sex and companionship starved men can provides “likes” and follow in the thousands for each picture and account. Women (and GIRLS) also pick up on the inferior, desperate male position at a very young age these days and exploit it to the hilt by entertaining themselves with serial dating, endless picture posting, and favor- and resource-mongering.

Throw in some sleazy male-bashing talk shows like The View, and movies, sitcoms, and commercials in which men are depicted in extreme forms–either a bumbling dunce and pushover or a chauvinistic, slick, fast-talking “alpha” who bosses people around and makes plenty of money from doing very little (eg, Mr. Big)–and some impressionable, confused, and lonely men might indeed feel very lost because it is either “alpha” males or attractive women ruling the roost while they are left twiddling their thumbs.

I say stay away from this environment and avoid pornography as well. You need normal social interactions with average (gasp, did I say that word?!) women.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[/quote]

This actually happened to me years ago at Mons Venus – “Best Strip Club and Gentleman’s Club in Tampa!”

One of the most beautiful black girls I’ve ever laid eyes on in my life (she was British FWIW) spent 30 - 45 minutes with me, and me alone (in the public area, not VIP room), just to chat and “take a break” (her words). No exchange of money. No expectation of money. All we did was talk (she did sit on my lap part of the time). She was completely nude and in that club you can touch the dancers.

But we did have a fun and interesting conversation. She was actually an intelligent woman, stripper or not.

I kid ye not.[/quote]

Yeah can have some really diverse/interesting/weird converstions in these places, especially with the international girls who can be super well travelled.