2010 Mr Olympia

Training Bodybuilding
921

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

I think his color is a huge issue. [/quote]

Apparently so if it is making some of you act like he was bloated and holding water. He was as in shape as he usually is and damn sure in the same shape or better as when he won the Arnold in the past.[/quote]

But were the men he competed against also in the same or worse shape to make a claim of a poor placement correct? I say the answer is no. I’d have him 2 places ahead of where he was. I saw it Phil, Jay, Dexter, Branch, Rockel, Victor, Kai, Wolf

922

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
Bonez’s points about color and oil application are spot on. This should be heavily emphasized come stage time for these guys… not as some “cosmetic” afterthought.

I liken it to painting a wall. If you did a shitty job with your spackling, you want to hide those details with paint that has no shine, so you use a flat latex.

Details are further emphasized under a “wet” look.[/quote]

To be fair, some of that has to do with the light at the show. When I went to Branch Warrens show here:
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/blog_sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_alpha/2010_npc_branch_warren_classic

the lighting was so awkward that if a competitor simply moved a few inches from the x they were supposed to pose on, you almost couldn’t see them in the shadows…and they looked washed out in other aspects.

I think Vic needed to be darker to show his detail more…but what I don’t get is people who supposedly do know more than average looking at him and saying he has no conditioning as if he didn’t diet enough.

923

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Seriously. When’s the last time Victor was actually in shape. Not “in shape for Victor”. When has he ever showed superb condtioning. Rockel is getting better and better each show and Victor isnt.

If Victor should have been top 5 than Kai should be unanimous Mr O. [/quote]

? The same can be said about aesthetics which are apparently not even judged on lately.

Kai isn’t the main factor in this show. PHIL HEATH was. Phil should have a brand new trophy at home right now.

Rockel looked to be in great condition. He also needs better shape overall, more size on his arms and something about his legs make them look short.[/quote]

Strawman.

I used Kai for an analogy regarding the visually apparent condition of the competitors. Heath has nothing to do with Victor or my comparison. My point was that conditioning is a HUGE factor in the pinnacle of bodybuilding. There are guys in the NPC bringing better conditioning than Victor brought this weekend.

Rockel was in much much better condition than Victor. And Rockel’s aesthetics arent anything close to bad. I’d have actually had Rockel ahead of wolf because Wolf is a joke when he turns around.

I predicted Victor to be in the top 5. I’ve said it numerous times. Victor has the best structure/muscle bellies combo since Ronnie stepped down. He just cant bring it all together. People dont get rewarded for what could be. When Victor brings the same condition as the guys ahead of him in the placing he will place better. Simple as that.

The judges are at the least being very consistent and systematic with their placings. Prime example is Branch Warren beating Dexter 3 shows in a row. I’m aware that the judges change for the different shows, but the criteria is relatively identical now for the Arnold and the O. Size → Conditioning → Shape/structure/aesthetics → Hair-do etc. [/quote]

The ONLY thing we agree on is that Wolfe shouldn’t have been anywhere near a top five placing.

They seem to award ‘changes’ more than they award development…which is supposedly how Wolfe came in ahead, by improving more than others.

I personally think this is bullshit. This is what they used to say about Shawn Ray because he pretty much brought the exact same package year after year…but why grade him down for that if he looks great as a result?

The same goes for Dex.

I am well aware that conditioning, especially in smaller shows, weighs heavy on the judges, but Vic didn’t look much different here in that regard than he ever does…which means you must think his past high placings were all lacking “condition”.

You can stick a quarter in that gap in his quads but you see no separation??

You can see the striations in his chest and his quads…so what do you mean?

I am thinking maybe the lighting is making it hard for you to see this. Maybe he should have used even darker tanning oil.[/quote]

I think his color is a huge issue. Look at his chest in the front double bi shots. It looks dry. Literally dry, not bodybuilding dry. Rockel’s color, and oil I guess, make his muscle jump out at the screen.

Saying Vic looks the same as previous shows isnt something I’ll argue for or against. But I do know that virtually everyone around him is making noticeable changes to their physiques.

Which leads to the point about awarding change. I dont think it’s proper to do so. Dexter shold not place behind Branch. This show was the first one out of the last 3 they did together that it was close but Dexter still should have edged him out.

Victor may not be changing but I do think that others are surpassing him. No CAN surpass his structure and shape but the things that the competitors can control are what’s being judged.

He looks blurred out from the back. The detail needs to be crisper. I see the striations in his chest and legs but you cant convince me that he couldn’t improve them. What else could the judges be thinking? [/quote]

Wait, so if you think that Wolfe and Branch were judged wrong, then why the fuck are people acting like I am so strange or (as one idiot keeps posting) a racist for pointing out pretty much the same shit?

Vic EARNED a higher placing. Rockel did NOT have the muscle to push out a giant like that. Sorry. That judgment is just dumb as hell.[/quote]

The color under the lights matters. Every single person looked better at last years show. Jay’s skin was gold and it looked great. He looked reddish/orange this year like his blood pressure was through the roof (which it may have been, but everyone else looked better under last years lights).

The lights have less of an effect with the darker skinned guys becuase they cant alter their skin tone to the same degree I think. Rockel looked better than Victor, those two nights.

924

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
Bonez’s points about color and oil application are spot on. This should be heavily emphasized come stage time for these guys… not as some “cosmetic” afterthought.

I liken it to painting a wall. If you did a shitty job with your spackling, you want to hide those details with paint that has no shine, so you use a flat latex.

Details are further emphasized under a “wet” look.[/quote]

To be fair, some of that has to do with the light at the show. When I went to Branch Warrens show here:
the lighting was so awkward that if a competitor simply moved a few inches from the x they were supposed to pose on, you almost couldn’t see them in the shadows…and they looked washed out in other aspects.

I think Vic needed to be darker to show his detail more…but what I don’t get is people who supposedly do know more than average looking at him and saying he has no conditioning as if he didn’t diet enough.[/quote]

But thats an impossible argument to make. You cant go by what somoene SHOULD look like with proper color. People fuck up their color. It happens. It must be penalized if it affects how the guy appears.

925

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
Bonez’s points about color and oil application are spot on. This should be heavily emphasized come stage time for these guys… not as some “cosmetic” afterthought.

I liken it to painting a wall. If you did a shitty job with your spackling, you want to hide those details with paint that has no shine, so you use a flat latex.

Details are further emphasized under a “wet” look.[/quote]

To be fair, some of that has to do with the light at the show. When I went to Branch Warrens show here:
the lighting was so awkward that if a competitor simply moved a few inches from the x they were supposed to pose on, you almost couldn’t see them in the shadows…and they looked washed out in other aspects.

I think Vic needed to be darker to show his detail more…but what I don’t get is people who supposedly do know more than average looking at him and saying he has no conditioning as if he didn’t diet enough.[/quote]

But thats an impossible argument to make. You cant go by what somoene SHOULD look like with proper color. People fuck up their color. It happens. It must be penalized if it affects how the guy appears. [/quote]

My point is, I have no trouble at all seeing his conditioning. I could see it online also.

You guys are the first I’ve heard act like he was washed out because of it or not in great condition.

Vic didn’t come into this out of shape but that is how some of you are making it sound.

926

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
Bonez’s points about color and oil application are spot on. This should be heavily emphasized come stage time for these guys… not as some “cosmetic” afterthought.

I liken it to painting a wall. If you did a shitty job with your spackling, you want to hide those details with paint that has no shine, so you use a flat latex.

Details are further emphasized under a “wet” look.[/quote]

To be fair, some of that has to do with the light at the show. When I went to Branch Warrens show here:
the lighting was so awkward that if a competitor simply moved a few inches from the x they were supposed to pose on, you almost couldn’t see them in the shadows…and they looked washed out in other aspects.

I think Vic needed to be darker to show his detail more…but what I don’t get is people who supposedly do know more than average looking at him and saying he has no conditioning as if he didn’t diet enough.[/quote]

But thats an impossible argument to make. You cant go by what somoene SHOULD look like with proper color. People fuck up their color. It happens. It must be penalized if it affects how the guy appears. [/quote]

My point is, I have no trouble at all seeing his conditioning. I could see it online also.

You guys are the first I’ve heard act like he was washed out because of it or not in great condition.

Vic didn’t come into this out of shape but that is how some of you are making it sound.[/quote]

He came out of shape compared to the top 6. That’s the entire point.

927

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
Bonez’s points about color and oil application are spot on. This should be heavily emphasized come stage time for these guys… not as some “cosmetic” afterthought.

I liken it to painting a wall. If you did a shitty job with your spackling, you want to hide those details with paint that has no shine, so you use a flat latex.

Details are further emphasized under a “wet” look.[/quote]

To be fair, some of that has to do with the light at the show. When I went to Branch Warrens show here:
the lighting was so awkward that if a competitor simply moved a few inches from the x they were supposed to pose on, you almost couldn’t see them in the shadows…and they looked washed out in other aspects.

I think Vic needed to be darker to show his detail more…but what I don’t get is people who supposedly do know more than average looking at him and saying he has no conditioning as if he didn’t diet enough.[/quote]

But thats an impossible argument to make. You cant go by what somoene SHOULD look like with proper color. People fuck up their color. It happens. It must be penalized if it affects how the guy appears. [/quote]

My point is, I have no trouble at all seeing his conditioning. I could see it online also.

You guys are the first I’ve heard act like he was washed out because of it or not in great condition.

Vic didn’t come into this out of shape but that is how some of you are making it sound.[/quote]

No one at the O is out of shape. But if he was leaner he’d have placed better. We know youre not a fan of the leanness requirements but that’s the standard set 10 years ago.

928

Vic has undoubtedly one of the greatest structures of all time, he isn’t doing worse, he’s standing still relatively speaking, as others are getting more and more conditioned. the condition what got him higher placings in years previous will no longer do it.

Rockel is not on the level of some of the top guys, but if they slip his structure, completeness, conditioning make up for his overall lack of size.

I’m glad for wolfe, he needed to place well. that said, he again is someone who would place behind others with muscular advantages, if those with superior muscles (better legs and back specifically) came to the show conditioned.

I think this may have been Dexter’s best years…phil, kai, jay beat him but regardless of conditioning branch should in almost all cases finish behind dexter.

Seeing Roelly next to these guys makes me curious to see how Evan will hold up. i think Evan is a bright guy who is taking his time, i bet he’s not do a show in 2011, if he didn’t have too.

929

[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
that’s why it’s called a show and not a competition. everything about bodybuilding is subjective. there’s no point in arguing the outcomes. [/quote]

I find it a refreshing change from the squat depth and raw vs. gear arguments.

930

This is the first time I’ve ever paid attention to ANY bodybuilding contest… and, I’ll freely admit that before I spent two years training around some of the guys on that stage, I found it pretty silly. Watching them train and interacting with them has (I’m proud to say) given me a much different perspective, and I can appreciate the art that they are creating.

Now, that being said… my wife and I both had the same reaction when we looked at the photo of the top 3 lined up next to each other;
Jay = Huge
Phil = Proportionate
Branch = Beast

My wife didn’t have much patience with the whole thing, but I was enjoying an overnight stay in the ER with one of my sons (2 years old) who almost went into anaphlactyc shock after being bitten about 30 times by fire ants. I had some time on my hands and watched a good amount of the webcast. From my novice perspective, the rest of the competitors fell along an indiscernably along the scale of those three attributes, and NONE of them presented or embodied any of those three attributes as obviously as Jay, Phil or Branch.

The one exception to me seemed to be Ronny Rockel. To me (again, a novice opinion), he seemed like a hybrid of Beast and Proportionate… though, he did not look as big as most of the other guys.

If I had to guess, I would think that the judges had shown to the bodybuilding community the 3 body styles that they esteem and the order in which they do so. I draw this conclusion simply from the distinct and obvious differences between the 3. I expect that the pros will be adjusting their plans for next year to suit this.

Swole

931

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
that’s why it’s called a show and not a competition. everything about bodybuilding is subjective. there’s no point in arguing the outcomes. [/quote]

I find it a refreshing change from the squat depth and raw vs. gear arguments.[/quote]

x2

I’d rather argue something I’m passionate about rather than have a nice conversation about the weather or some shit.

lol

932

[quote]cyruseven75 wrote:

Seeing Roelly next to these guys makes me curious to see how Evan will hold up. i think Evan is a bright guy who is taking his time, i bet he’s not do a show in 2011, if he didn’t have too. [/quote]

Evan said he wants to do the '11 O. So he’d have to qualify. So that’s either two or three shows guaranteed. If he gets invited to the Arnold and only does the Arnold he’d have to place real well to qualify for the O. He’s most likely going to do an early show, then the arnold then the O. He stays really lean in the offseason so it shouldnt be hard for him to hold his condition. Peaking 3 times is another story.

Im thinking NY pro, Arnold, O. Like Roelly did

933

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]cyruseven75 wrote:

Seeing Roelly next to these guys makes me curious to see how Evan will hold up. i think Evan is a bright guy who is taking his time, i bet he’s not do a show in 2011, if he didn’t have too. [/quote]

Evan said he wants to do the '11 O. So he’d have to qualify. So that’s either two or three shows guaranteed. If he gets invited to the Arnold and only does the Arnold he’d have to place real well to qualify for the O. He’s most likely going to do an early show, then the arnold then the O. He stays really lean in the offseason so it shouldnt be hard for him to hold his condition. Peaking 3 times is another story.

Im thinking NY pro, Arnold, O. Like Roelly did[/quote]

He said he is definitely doing the Arnold.

934

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]cyruseven75 wrote:

Seeing Roelly next to these guys makes me curious to see how Evan will hold up. i think Evan is a bright guy who is taking his time, i bet he’s not do a show in 2011, if he didn’t have too. [/quote]

Evan said he wants to do the '11 O. So he’d have to qualify. So that’s either two or three shows guaranteed. If he gets invited to the Arnold and only does the Arnold he’d have to place real well to qualify for the O. He’s most likely going to do an early show, then the arnold then the O. He stays really lean in the offseason so it shouldnt be hard for him to hold his condition. Peaking 3 times is another story.

Im thinking NY pro, Arnold, O. Like Roelly did[/quote]

He said he is definitely doing the Arnold.[/quote]

The arnold is invite only. Is he assuming he’s going to be invited or does that mean he got invited already. Just wondering

935

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]zraw wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
This is a top six back? Hell, I hope my back is about that size now.[/quote]

Well damn you should compete, turn pro, and make big money doing what you love[/quote]

Dude, go away. Why do that when I make money doing what i do now? And get this, there is no “average five year popularity” issue as there is in bodybuilding. The average guy you see on stage won’t be talked about 5 years from now.

Remember Don Long?
Vince Taylor?
Barry Demey?
Francis Benfatto?
Momo Benaziza?
(and these names came from memory not a google search)

No?

Go figure.

You sound like a child at this point with little to offer.[/quote]

Well than you have

Kevin Levrone
Dorian Yates
Flex Wheeler
Shawn Ray
Lee Haney

And many other pros who haven’t competed in over 5 years still being big names today. I can’t count how many times I here those above mentioned names and other even dudes from the 60s and 70s.

And onto Rockel, fact is he looked better than Vic on the day of the show, Vic was not dry, did not possess the same seperation and ultimately looked a good week or 2 out and thus a better Rockel deservingly got a better placement.

936

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]cyruseven75 wrote:

Seeing Roelly next to these guys makes me curious to see how Evan will hold up. i think Evan is a bright guy who is taking his time, i bet he’s not do a show in 2011, if he didn’t have too. [/quote]

Evan said he wants to do the '11 O. So he’d have to qualify. So that’s either two or three shows guaranteed. If he gets invited to the Arnold and only does the Arnold he’d have to place real well to qualify for the O. He’s most likely going to do an early show, then the arnold then the O. He stays really lean in the offseason so it shouldnt be hard for him to hold his condition. Peaking 3 times is another story.

Im thinking NY pro, Arnold, O. Like Roelly did[/quote]

He said he is definitely doing the Arnold.[/quote]

The arnold is invite only. Is he assuming he’s going to be invited or does that mean he got invited already. Just wondering[/quote]

On another board he said he was doing the Arnold when someone asked what his next show was going to be so I am assuming he was invited. I’m about to ask him, literally lol, just to clarify.

937

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]zraw wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
This is a top six back? Hell, I hope my back is about that size now.[/quote]

Well damn you should compete, turn pro, and make big money doing what you love[/quote]

Dude, go away. Why do that when I make money doing what i do now? And get this, there is no “average five year popularity” issue as there is in bodybuilding. The average guy you see on stage won’t be talked about 5 years from now.

Remember Don Long?
Vince Taylor?
Barry Demey?
Francis Benfatto?
Momo Benaziza?
(and these names came from memory not a google search)

No?

Go figure.

You sound like a child at this point with little to offer.[/quote]

Well than you have

Kevin Levrone
Dorian Yates
Flex Wheeler
Shawn Ray
Lee Haney

And many other pros who haven’t competed in over 5 years still being big names today. I can’t count how many times I here those above mentioned names and other even dudes from the 60s and 70s.

And onto Rockel, fact is he looked better than Vic on the day of the show, Vic was not dry, did not possess the same seperation and ultimately looked a good week or 2 out and thus a better Rockel deservingly got a better placement. [/quote]

Shawn ray is only talked about when he pisses someone else off. Dorian Yates, Flex and Kevin have kept themselves in the public because of endorsements or their own attempts at self marketing (Flex’s supplement line caused a stir when he claimed he was natural, Kevin got reinserted into our heads when he did that video series of him getting back into shape for a movie, and Dorian still does some commentary at shows and is still seen at parties along with his supplement line and personal training.

No one is talking about Lee Haney (which is a shame) and this was a guy who truly has the best spiritual and character influence of anyone else…ever.

Most of the ones you mentioned also just finished competing fairly recently especially since most of us who actually follow the sport started following it when those guys were on stage.

What about the other guys?

You gave five names and the truth is, if it weren’t for the websites that make their voices known, they would be gone out of the public eye as well. The INTERNET is why you still hear of them.

What about Nasser?

What about Cormier, Mike Mattarazzo, Ernie Taylor, Jean Pierre Fux, Pavol Jablonicky, Aaron Baker, Gunter Schlierkamp, Johnny Moya or Mike Francois?

Need me to go on?

Pointing out five guys who are only known now mostly through the MD website does not erase the HUNDREDS who were talked about who are now nowhere to be found aside from rare appearances.

938

Hey Prof X,

With you on believing without a doubt that Phil Heath should have won. I definitely sometimes feel like the judging is about courtesy to the veterans, politics, or blindness.

I love Heath, Roelly, Cedric McMillan, Evan Centopani, and Rockel. Most of them are newer to the pro stages, and I hope they don’t decide to play the mass monster game that took over the last decade and sacrificed lines.

Just curious, who are your favorite bodybuilders on the scene, or upcoming?

939

[quote]JHollywood wrote:
Hey Prof X,

With you on believing without a doubt that Phil Heath should have won. I definitely sometimes feel like the judging is about courtesy to the veterans, politics, or blindness.

I love Heath, Roelly, Cedric McMillan, Evan Centopani, and Rockel. Most of them are newer to the pro stages, and I hope they don’t decide to play the mass monster game that took over the last decade and sacrificed lines.

Just curious, who are your favorite bodybuilders on the scene, or upcoming?[/quote]

Pretty much, everyone you just named. Evan has a huge following and he has never been on that stage yet. Roelly has the personality and the look to really be great in the sport. Ced will fuck himself up if he tries to play the mass game…but he will…because that is what they do. Hopefully he doesn’t lose those lines that have made him a stand out player.

The bottom line is they need to change the judges and the judging criteria. They can’t say they are for an X-FRAME and then keep giving the O crown to the guy with the widest waist on stage. If they are going for aethetics, they need to stick with it.

I think Kevin English is unbelievable. I like David Henry (hell, he is Air Force and so am/was I)…but English on stage has thickness that david just doesn’t have…but then David isn’t going up to 270lbs in the off season still lean and if people aren’t convinced that bulking up works, they only need to look here.

Bodybuilding is gaining in popularity. I don’t care what anyone says, this contest was NOT boring. I didn’t have many problems with my online connection for this contest so my opinion of it is that if they get rid of Chic, they should be able to get this back on pay per view.

I just love the fact that people do seem to respect this pursuit again. I get mostly positive comments when out and only the occasional “frown and stare” from a few people every once in a while like they don’t understand what they are looking at.

Bodybuilding is back or better than it was in the 90’s if they play up these guys’ personalities.

940

Mmm I love when these threads implode… makes for good reading.