Thats some deep stuff, but doing more in a session would get you nowhere if you are not eating real food somewhere before and after training. The extra say 50g of protein and carbs you get with the supplement isn’t going to build the muscle, or am I missing something?
[quote]crazyj23 wrote:
Thats some deep stuff, but doing more in a session would get you nowhere if you are not eating real food somewhere before and after training. The extra say 50g of protein and carbs you get with the supplement isn’t going to build the muscle, or am I missing something?
[/quote]
It’s just a supplement. It’s not a replacement for everything else.
I’d say it’s even less about being a protein source, and more about just enabling higher productivity during your workout session. So there’s the part where it lets you accomplish more work, i.e., more stimulus to build new muscle. And there’s the second part where it gives you the ability to recover just a little bit faster, so you could train more frequently if you wanted.
But yeah, you still need all the other protein and carbs for the rest of the time you’re not lifting.
So is it the energy that peri is supposed to boost? What are you supplementing with peri, food?
I train fasted most days. You get used to it.
Are supplements nice, easy and convinient? Yes of course. Are they absolutely necessary? Nope.
I wrote my reply before you edited yours.
My point is, I wonder if all the people jumping on the peri nutrition thing have ever tried eating the right food at the right times which I guess is peri nutrition, before buying supplements.
Related:
I train fasted in the mornings although for the past 6 months I have a BCAAs before and during training. I have not noticed any effect from the BCAAs. Who here uses BCAAs and do you notice any difference?
Uncle Bird.
tweet
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
[quote]gtl wrote:
[quote]Waittz wrote:
[quote]gtl wrote:
[quote]crazyj23 wrote:
^Agreed. I feel great with meat, rice/potato and a piece of fruit a while before training, Gatorade during training, and a healthy meal of meat, rice/potato and veggies after. I make protein shake if I’m being lazy but all that supplement usage is a waste in my eyes. What happens when you stop buying $250-500 worth of crap every month?[/quote]
Your grocery bill goes up?
2 scoops SWF + 2 scoops MAG-10 is around $3. I don’t think I can get 20g quality fast digesting lean protein and 75g carbs for $3, let alone convenience.[/quote]
must be a huge tax on rice and eggs where you live. Maybe your local cereal economy has been hit by inflation. Chicken and tuna shortage? Irish potato famine? Swine flu outbreak? [/quote]
Last time I checked, a carton of egg whites was almost $3, which is 50g protein, so lets say $1.50 for protein. Add in some rice, you’re at about $2. Maybe a little cheaper, but the convenience factor wins, IMO.
[/quote]
Please show me how much rice you are eating for a dollar. 1lb dry? I get 25lbs of basmati for less than 20$ You can also use whole eggs (gasp)[/quote]
I never said $1 worth of rice. And we’re talking about foods around training. Whole eggs… not ideal.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
[quote]c.m.l. wrote:
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
[…] been training for 5-6+ years consistently and gains have come to a crawl […]
[/quote]
Just to clarify, unless I post in the beginner forum or something specifically about beginners, this is the audience I’m addressing.
And there was nothing broscience about what I said. Don’t believe me? Any reputable trainer, including many of the ones on this site whose word is taken for gospel, have some input about how important this is.
[/quote]
I’m merely stating the research I’ve seen and my personal experience. And that audience is quite small and many here don’t fit it. Many are beginner to intermediate. I’ve been very happy with my progress sans amazing Periworkout. Again the window is not as small as everyone wants to think. It’s more like 24-48hrs[/quote]
Just to clarify my position… I’ve found the ‘amazing Periworkout’ is great for recovery between sets of a given workout. Being able to push harder, for longer, during a given workout session. It’s a very noticeable difference. Enough that I suggest to give it a shot and see for yourself.
From a research standpoint, take a look at both Peptopro (a casein, hydrolized into di and tri peptides) and Vitargo (a modern low-osmolality carb), and how they’re being used in the sports nutrition world, including among Olympic athletes. The combination of a low-osmolality carb source and predigested protein/aminos basically enables immediate absorption upon ingestion, without sitting around in the stomach or intestines, waiting to be digested. The protein/aminos/peptides are delivered as needed, along with the associated insulin spike from the carbs (and protein).
As far as how that plays out over time in the bodybuilding/physique world, that’s speculation at best on my part. I would imagine that being able to do more in a given session, every session, would play out to greater gains over time.[/quote]
Again I can only speak for myself but workout carbs do jack shit for me. I do two hour marathon sessions with way to many sets and never lose focus or fatigue. Your body adapts. Your body is going to use the glucose in the muscle before any is needed from somewhere else. As soon as you start exercising the liver is going to dump glucose so I fail to see how anyone doing even a high volume workout is going to burn enough glucose to need an external source
[quote]gtl wrote:
And we’re talking about foods around training. Whole eggs… not ideal.
[/quote]
Why not? You can’t have eggs an hour before you work out?
[quote]theBird wrote:
Related:
I train fasted in the mornings although for the past 6 months I have a BCAAs before and during training. I have not noticed any effect from the BCAAs. Who here uses BCAAs and do you notice any difference?
Uncle Bird.
tweet[/quote]
Only notice at high +35 grams doses (spread throughout the day).
[quote]gregron wrote:
[quote]gtl wrote:
And we’re talking about foods around training. Whole eggs… not ideal.
[/quote]
Why not? You can’t have eggs an hour before you work out?[/quote]
You can, and those who preach the benefits of peri-WO nutrition do so. John Meadows eats fats in his pre-WO meal to slow digestion of carbs.
Plus, you can buy whole eggs and just use the whites pretty easily. So whole eggs or egg whites are in reality the same price lol
In my opinion its not the need of fuel that precipitates the use of periworkout nutrition. Rather, it is the oppurtunity to put select substances into the muscle (creatine, aminos, etc) and most importantly the anti-catabolic effects of insulin itself. Just like how foam rolling doesn’t seem too big of a deal until you are at the point to need it, periworkout nutrition may not seem like a big deal until you are scraping for a handful of lbs over a year, and anti-catabolism becomes a big part of holding on to that fraction of a lb each month.
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
Plus, you can buy whole eggs and just use the whites pretty easily. So whole eggs or egg whites are in reality the same price lol[/quote]
And you get free yolks too. “New and improved egg whites… now with yolks!”
Catabolism is not a bad thing without it you’d never lose fat the amount of muscle that may possibly be broken down for fuel in a workout is minuscule at worst. Keeping insulin lower will help use fat for fuel and keep your mind sharper and provide better focus. The nutrients can be loaded before and after workouts. It’s been shown it doesn’t matter when you take creatine as long as you take it. Same with other products
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
[quote]gregron wrote:
[quote]gtl wrote:
And we’re talking about foods around training. Whole eggs… not ideal.
[/quote]
Why not? You can’t have eggs an hour before you work out?[/quote]
You can, and those who preach the benefits of peri-WO nutrition do so. John Meadows eats fats in his pre-WO meal to slow digestion of carbs.
Plus, you can buy whole eggs and just use the whites pretty easily. So whole eggs or egg whites are in reality the same price lol[/quote]
I use a mix of whole eggs egg whites from whole eggs and egg whites from a carton to keep costs down
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Catabolism is not a bad thing without it you’d never lose fat the amount of muscle that may possibly be broken down for fuel in a workout is minuscule at worst. Keeping insulin lower will help use fat for fuel and keep your mind sharper and provide better focus. The nutrients can be loaded before and after workouts. It’s been shown it doesn’t matter when you take creatine as long as you take it. Same with other products [/quote]
I understand your skepticism, I really do.
However, “I don’t see how it could possibly work, therefore it must not work” isn’t really a logical train of thought.
My view was, “I don’t see how it could work, but I’ll give it a try”. And I gave it a try, and while I still don’t truly understand how it works, I realize it does… at least for me.
On the other hand, other things I’ve tried really didn’t work. I’ve made sure I had sugars and aminos in my body with food. I’ve used solid food. I’ve used milk. I’ve used milk + whey.
I tried one of the Vince Gironda recipes: protein powder + half&half + raw egg. I think this is still a good mix, but makes no difference periworkout.
I also tried one of John McCallum’s recipes: skim milk powder + whole milk + [chocolate] ice cream + corn syrup + peanut butter + raw egg + malt powder. Again, that was a good meal-replacement, but made no difference periworkout.
But this other stuff… actually made a noticeable difference.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Catabolism is not a bad thing without it you’d never lose fat the amount of muscle that may possibly be broken down for fuel in a workout is minuscule at worst. Keeping insulin lower will help use fat for fuel and keep your mind sharper and provide better focus. The nutrients can be loaded before and after workouts. It’s been shown it doesn’t matter when you take creatine as long as you take it. Same with other products [/quote]
I understand your skepticism, I really do.
However, “I don’t see how it could possibly work, therefore it must not work” isn’t really a logical train of thought.
My view was, “I don’t see how it could work, but I’ll give it a try”. And I gave it a try, and while I still don’t truly understand how it works, I realize it does… at least for me.
On the other hand, other things I’ve tried really didn’t work. I’ve made sure I had sugars and aminos in my body with food. I’ve used solid food. I’ve used milk. I’ve used milk + whey.
I tried one of the Vince Gironda recipes: protein powder + half&half + raw egg. I think this is still a good mix, but makes no difference periworkout.
I also tried one of John McCallum’s recipes: skim milk powder + whole milk + [chocolate] ice cream + corn syrup + peanut butter + raw egg + malt powder. Again, that was a good meal-replacement, but made no difference periworkout.
But this other stuff… actually made a noticeable difference.[/quote]
You must not be reading everything I write. I said I gave it a try. I get better results and workouts without it. I also stated that until someone is at a very advanced level the differnce will not be noticeable interms of progress again my views and experiences.
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
You must not be reading everything I write. I said I gave it a try. I get better results and workouts without it. I also stated that until someone is at a very advanced level the difference will not be noticeable in terms of progress again my views and experiences.
[/quote]
I see you mentioned that some carbs did nothing for you, that’s all I really saw. But I mean, if you gave it a try, and it didn’t work… it didn’t work.
For me, my experience has been different.
I think the real points I wanted to get across:
- these products are more than just another protein powder/protein source
- the improved intra-set recovery benefit is where the real value is
If you’re just looking at it as a way to get in more protein, its kind of a waste. If you’re looking for a way to increase your performance during your workout sessions, I think it’s worth giving it a try.
Basically “don’t knock it until you’ve tried it”. I hate cliches, but that’s how I really feel about it.
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Catabolism is not a bad thing without it you’d never lose fat the amount of muscle that may possibly be broken down for fuel in a workout is minuscule at worst. Keeping insulin lower will help use fat for fuel and keep your mind sharper and provide better focus. The nutrients can be loaded before and after workouts. It’s been shown it doesn’t matter when you take creatine as long as you take it. Same with other products [/quote]
I agree with this 100%. I’ve tried multiple intra-workout approaches, even gatorade during training back before it was cool! I got good pumps, but I also got a bigger waist. I do much better eating whole meals a couple hours before I train, and whey after I train. If I am running behind because of work or something, I can knock down whey and an apple right before I walk in and do fine. I feel I gain just as well, and stay leaner. I may just be a closet fatty, but this is my experience.
[quote]c.m.l. wrote:
In my opinion its not the need of fuel that precipitates the use of periworkout nutrition. Rather, it is the oppurtunity to put select substances into the muscle (creatine, aminos, etc) and most importantly the anti-catabolic effects of insulin itself. Just like how foam rolling doesn’t seem too big of a deal until you are at the point to need it, periworkout nutrition may not seem like a big deal until you are scraping for a handful of lbs over a year, and anti-catabolism becomes a big part of holding on to that fraction of a lb each month. [/quote]
This seems like a fair post.