Tyson in his prime couldn’t beat Frazier in his prime. Ali in his prime would have killed Mike Tyson.
Ali would have defeated Tyson.
I don’t think he would have given him the battles that both Frazier and Foreman did. Foreman was probably the most powerful puncher in modern times. Frazier a pure fighter. Ali though was the master. Not as student of the game but the rare “first thinker” that rarely comes along. Be it the mental or physical aspect, he could take you down. Physically he could hit, move and trade just about any punch with you, equal or better.
I really think Ali, in his prime, was the best heavyweight of all time.
Ali vs. Joe Louis now that could be a little more interesting…I never saw Joe Louis but my old man says he would have beat Ali.
Tyson would beat Ali? Are you kidding? The guy got knocked out by Buster fuckin Douglas- while he was in his prime!
Not to mention that Tyson never went twelve rounds with anyone worth a damn in the first place…Ali would be done with him by the Seventh round.
Marciano, of course, could have beaten all of them.
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Biting off ears and hitting below the belt is not a manifestation of rage, it is a cowards way out. Attacking the opponent through the referee is just stupid, and seems to me like a calculated ploy to annoy his opponents rather than genuine ‘rage’. OK, maybe tyson does/did have ‘rage’, but Joe Frazier had a personal hate for Ali, was a powerful, singleminded foe who would not give an inch to Ali, yet could not properly beat him. Tyson can blow off like a volcano, but Frazier was like a glacier against Ali, grinding ever forwards, crushing Ali under a devastating weight of constant pressure, not backing off or halting his advance. Tyson would not have the heart, or the passion to pull something like this off. He might explode for a while but ultimately, his fury would burn itself out. [/quote]
Great post.
Ali seemed to run from his opponents in every fight I have seen.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Tyson would beat Ali? Are you kidding? The guy got knocked out by Buster fuckin Douglas- while he was in his prime!
Not to mention that Tyson never went twelve rounds with anyone worth a damn in the first place…Ali would be done with him by the Seventh round.
Marciano, of course, could have beaten all of them. [/quote]
You must have been too young or didn’t pay attention to the fight game. Tyson didn’t prepare for Douglas, thus got his ass knocked out. Tyson rarely went beyond twelve rounds because he demolished his opponents. I’m no where near a Tyson fan. I am a huge Holyfield fan. Always was and always will be. because he was a victim of his own stupidity. Your statement is off base. When Tyson was in his prime Custamoto was his manager. Nobody could have beaten him then. Way to bring Marciano in the picture.
[quote]Petedacook wrote:
Ali seemed to run from his opponents in every fight I have seen. [/quote]
And win. What’s your point?
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
Biting off ears and hitting below the belt is not a manifestation of rage, it is a cowards way out. Attacking the opponent through the referee is just stupid, and seems to me like a calculated ploy to annoy his opponents rather than genuine ‘rage’. OK, maybe tyson does/did have ‘rage’, but Joe Frazier had a personal hate for Ali, was a powerful, singleminded foe who would not give an inch to Ali, yet could not properly beat him. Tyson can blow off like a volcano, but Frazier was like a glacier against Ali, grinding ever forwards, crushing Ali under a devastating weight of constant pressure, not backing off or halting his advance. Tyson would not have the heart, or the passion to pull something like this off. He might explode for a while but ultimately, his fury would burn itself out.
Great post.[/quote]
Agreed, great post BBB.
[quote]Donut62 wrote:
Ali wins this one, hands down. I’m talking prime Ali, the Ali that fought Cleveland Williams, and the prime Tyson. First of all, Tyson as a person was filled to the brim with self-doubt, and Ali would have preyed upon that outside of the ring.
Tyson’s could not win a fight when his plan “A” didn’t work. Buster showed this. Ali would have used his brilliant footwork and stinging jab to waltz around the ring with Tyson for the first half of the fight. Tyson would stick to his “A” plan, bobbing and weaving and coming right at him. Everytime Tyson sets up to throw, Ali is already gone though, and Tyson eats a jab or two as Ali dances away.
Mike might catch him here and there, but Ali’s chin was substantial and he wouldn’t be dazed enough for Tyson to capitalize. Meanwhile, Ali has peppered Tyson’s face with 20-30 jabs a round, a few crosses, and Tyson’s eyes are swollen. His “A” game not working, Tyson starts getting panicky and wild, Ali has mastered his timing, and those jabs start turning into hard combos.
Eventually we see Tyson hit the canvas in the late rounds, 10-12, and the fight is over. Ali wins this one 8 out of 10 times. Too fast, too smart, too good at keeping range, and Tyson was just too predictable.[/quote]
That’s the book on the past his prime Tyson. Look how Tyson fought Douglas. No head movement, one punch at a time. Tyson without Rooney is not prime Tyson.
Every fight from Douglas on was just a shadow of Tyson.
People overestimate Ali’s technical abilities and underestimate Tyson’s. Ali is the last person anybody should emulate stylistically. He kept his hands down and leaned back for defense. His great hand and foot speed helped him to win early on. His great chin helped him later in his career when he lost his foot speed.
I think the Young Ali could/would have beaten a prime Tyson on points. I do not think Ali would have stopped a prime Tyson. I do not think Ali ever faced somebody like a prime Tyson stylistically. Tyson would come in strong with his jab, doubling and tripling up. Hooking off his jab or going to to the body hard then coming up with uppercuts with the same hand. Even throwing hooks off the uppercuts after the body, three punches with the same arm. Tyson could do this because of his tremendous hand speed. Tyson also had good footwork and quick feet.
I think he could have caught Ali, maybe not early on when Ali was just dancing around, but when Ali started to assert himself and had to throw punches , yes Tyson could have caught him and had himself a 10-8 round. I think unless Ali started throwing early Tyson would win some early rounds just by being more active.
Round 1: Ali dances around not throwing much while, Tyson comes in behind a doubled up jab and rights to the body followed by uppercuts. Ali clinches, holds. 10-9 Tyson
Round 2: Ali does the same thing, this time being more assertive with his jab, still not enough to outwork Tyson 10-9 Tyson
Round 3: Ali opens up throwing crosses off his jab, landing , but opts to clinch and hold when Tyson comes in hard. Tyson can now go hard to the body and thrw combinations when Ali throw combos. round even
Round 4: Ali finds his timing and jabs, leans away follwed by jabs and right crosses. 10-9 Ali
round 5: More of the same, Tyson decides to go hard to the body with his right and come upstairs. 10-9 Ali
round 6: Tyson decides to stick to his plan and goes back to his jab, hooking off it when ali sits down to throw his right. round even
round 7: Tyson knocks down Ali with an uppercut off a bodyshot while contering a Ali jab and right cross combo. Ali decides to dance away and jab. 10-8 Tyson
round 8: Ali can’t just beat Tyson to the punch because of Tyson’s hand and foot speed. Dances away while throwing jabs. Doesn’t convince the judges he has done enough to win the round. round even
I think it would go on like this if the fight was twelve rounds and end up either a draw or slim points win for Ali. If it were 15 rounds I think the margin would be bigger for Ali.
1970’s Ali against a prime Tyson would have been a great fight. I do not think rope a dope would have worked. If Ali did that he would get punished like he did against Shavers.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Beauzo wrote:
Tyson never beat anyone worth a damn; and some of the guys that beat him wern’t exactly the best fighters of all time. To name a few Buster Dougeless and Holyfield. One the other hand, Ali beat Foreman, Frasier (who I like beter than Ali), Liston, etc. THERE IS NO COMPARISON!
Ali beat Foreman by simply outlasting him. He didn’t do it because of greater strength or even greater skill. He took hits until he tired him out…because Foreman was all power but less endurance. His strategy saved his ass. On someone like Tyson who would possibly keep coming (if based on nothing but insane rage), I think he would have his hands full.
Ali never fought “fucking crazy”.[/quote]
add to the fact that foreman was no where near as fast as tyson so now not only does ali have to contend with tyson’s power but also speed/agility
It’s hard to compare eras, and a lot in boxing has to do with styles matching up. I think people are quick to dismiss the quality of Tyson’s opponents. The fact of the matter is he beat world class guys and they were no more or less talented than what Marciano, Louis, Liston, Patterson, Dempsey or Lewis fought…
People forget how good Tyson was at 20-23, not just his power (both hands) but his speed and his defensive abilities. He could close the gap like nobody I’ve ever seen and had a great chin and stamina. He was more than a puncher !!
I would pick Ali on points but wouldn’t be surprised if Tyson pulled off the win.
[quote]otoko wrote:
That’s the book on the past his prime Tyson. Look how Tyson fought Douglas. No head movement, one punch at a time. Tyson without Rooney is not prime Tyson.
Every fight from Douglas on was just a shadow of Tyson.
People overestimate Ali’s technical abilities and underestimate Tyson’s. Ali is the last person anybody should emulate stylistically. He kept his hands down and leaned back for defense. His great hand and foot speed helped him to win early on. His great chin helped him later in his career when he lost his foot speed.
I think the Young Ali could/would have beaten a prime Tyson on points. I do not think Ali would have stopped a prime Tyson. I do not think Ali ever faced somebody like a prime Tyson stylistically. Tyson would come in strong with his jab, doubling and tripling up. Hooking off his jab or going to to the body hard then coming up with uppercuts with the same hand. Even throwing hooks off the uppercuts after the body, three punches with the same arm. Tyson could do this because of his tremendous hand speed. Tyson also had good footwork and quick feet.
I think he could have caught Ali, maybe not early on when Ali was just dancing around, but when Ali started to assert himself and had to throw punches , yes Tyson could have caught him and had himself a 10-8 round. I think unless Ali started throwing early Tyson would win some early rounds just by being more active.
Round 1: Ali dances around not throwing much while, Tyson comes in behind a doubled up jab and rights to the body followed by uppercuts. Ali clinches, holds. 10-9 Tyson
Round 2: Ali does the same thing, this time being more assertive with his jab, still not enough to outwork Tyson 10-9 Tyson
Round 3: Ali opens up throwing crosses off his jab, landing , but opts to clinch and hold when Tyson comes in hard. Tyson can now go hard to the body and thrw combinations when Ali throw combos. round even
Round 4: Ali finds his timing and jabs, leans away follwed by jabs and right crosses. 10-9 Ali
round 5: More of the same, Tyson decides to go hard to the body with his right and come upstairs. 10-9 Ali
round 6: Tyson decides to stick to his plan and goes back to his jab, hooking off it when ali sits down to throw his right. round even
round 7: Tyson knocks down Ali with an uppercut off a bodyshot while contering a Ali jab and right cross combo. Ali decides to dance away and jab. 10-8 Tyson
round 8: Ali can’t just beat Tyson to the punch because of Tyson’s hand and foot speed. Dances away while throwing jabs. Doesn’t convince the judges he has done enough to win the round. round even
I think it would go on like this if the fight was twelve rounds and end up either a draw or slim points win for Ali. If it were 15 rounds I think the margin would be bigger for Ali.
1970’s Ali against a prime Tyson would have been a great fight. I do not think rope a dope would have worked. If Ali did that he would get punished like he did against Shavers.[/quote]
Great post otoko!
People tend to forget that Tyson in his prime fought the biggest collection of bums ever.
Most of his big knockouts came against guys that drove delivery trucks and fought on weekends.
Ali would own Tyson. No doubt about it.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Tyson would beat Ali? Are you kidding? The guy got knocked out by Buster fuckin Douglas- while he was in his prime!
Not to mention that Tyson never went twelve rounds with anyone worth a damn in the first place…Ali would be done with him by the Seventh round.
Marciano, of course, could have beaten all of them. [/quote]
Yes.
Can we all at least agree that Bruce Lee would pwn all of them?
[quote]Kuz wrote:
Can we all at least agree that Bruce Lee would pwn all of them?[/quote]
At the same time.
I’m going with Ali too. Tyson never fought anyone with the footwork and ability to slip punches and take punches that Ali had. Ali was also one of the best jabbers of all time and had the quickest hands of any hwt in modern times. Throw in his ability to get into his opponents’ heads and Ali would likely have toyed with Tyson.
And while Tyson had a devastating right hand, so did all of the big hwts of Ali’s era (Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Shavers).
To whomever said it, Wepner did NOT beat Ali. He knocked him down (by standing on his foot and punching him in the chest) after which point Ali destroyed him before knocking Wepner down for the 1st time in his career.
And, “I’m going to call Ali Cassius Clay. His momma named him Cassius, so I’m going to call him Cassius.”
DB