Wrestler Decides Not to Face Female at Iowa State Finals

Off Topic
201

There is a clear difference in the athleticism shown in the greco video vs your womens grappling videos, one of which was a routine.

Your ignorance is well displayed by your multiple references to the sport of MMA as “ufc”

Also I don’t think anyone is trying to say MMA is less violent. You have created a paper thin straw man argument as there is no one here who believes that when you take wrestling and add the ability to punch kick choke knee and elbow someone that it somehow makes it less violent.

As for the thread. Woohoo some bitch got to state and some teenage boy had moral qualms about not wrestling her. His personal choice to not engage his personal mindset of violence that he uses to preform in the sport is so newsworthy. NAAAAAAAT

202

I know I haven’t exactly been involved in this conversation at all for at least the last 4-5 pages but I just got home from work and can’t sleep so I’m gonna throw in my two cents on this post.

[quote]Oleena wrote:
I get the impression from the ignorant bullshit some of you are posting that you have no fucking clue what a woman doing a combat sport looks like, so here’s an education:
[/quote]

When I wrestled in university, I trained in a room with female Canadian national champions, world medallists, and an olympic gold medallist. I know what a female combat athlete looks like, and I’m sure most of the other guys posting here have a pretty good idea too.

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Now, when I say controlled, I’m not saying that you don’t get thrown around. I’m saying that it takes a LOT of time and practice to perfect a certain type of movement because it’s not intuitive. In addition to having to control the type of offense you use (certain chokes and holds only), there’s a way of moving that makes those work. If you can’t move like that because you’re freaking out and just trying to take the other person down any way your body comes up with on the spot, you can’t fucking win. The less intuitive the type of movement, and the more restricted the type of knockout allowed, the more controlled the sport is. Thus, when I say wrestling is restrictive in such a way that it makes it less violent than MMA and UFC, there shouldn’t be an argument. That’s pretty damn obvious.
[/quote]

I feel like you’re trying to say that the striking skills used in MMA don’t take a lot of time and practice to get right and are more intuitive than wrestling. Now I’ve never done a striking sport, but that smells like bullshit to me. Also, in an earlier post it seemed to me like you were implying that the violence in wrestling was negligible and called it a skill sport. It is not a skill sport, it is a combat sport, and it is violent, perhaps not in the same manner as mixed martial arts and other striking combat sports, but violent nonetheless. I personally know four guys who have had to retire from wrestling due to multiple concussions and all four of them still suffer from PCS symptoms to this day. But if the laundry list of wrestling injuries posted in this thread thus far hasn’t convinced you of anything, well, it’s no longer worth the effort.

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Lastly, fighting, regardless of sex, is about seeing how good you are. The only person who can show you that is an opponent. If you beat someone, you teach them something about what they need to do differently to take their game to the next level. It’s not a fucking ego trip.

Not fighting this woman is denying someone, who’s trained for YEARS and beaten MANY (regardless of those who forfeited, she still won throughout the years many times or she wouldn’t be on that level) the chance to improve their game at something they LOVE. That’s rude and sad on many levels. At least do this person the decency of helping them improve what they’ve devoted half their life to.[/quote]

Not sure I would’ve been happy about it but I probably would’ve wrestled her and done everything in my power to end that match as quickly as possible. Just saying.

203

I’d probably end up getting a boner, so yeah, I wouldn’t do it either.

204

[quote]TheJonty wrote:
I know I haven’t exactly been involved in this conversation at all for at least the last 4-5 pages but I just got home from work and can’t sleep so I’m gonna throw in my two cents on this post.

[quote]Oleena wrote:
I get the impression from the ignorant bullshit some of you are posting that you have no fucking clue what a woman doing a combat sport looks like, so here’s an education:
[/quote]

When I wrestled in university, I trained in a room with female Canadian national champions, world medallists, and an olympic gold medallist. I know what a female combat athlete looks like, and I’m sure most of the other guys posting here have a pretty good idea too.

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Now, when I say controlled, I’m not saying that you don’t get thrown around. I’m saying that it takes a LOT of time and practice to perfect a certain type of movement because it’s not intuitive. In addition to having to control the type of offense you use (certain chokes and holds only), there’s a way of moving that makes those work. If you can’t move like that because you’re freaking out and just trying to take the other person down any way your body comes up with on the spot, you can’t fucking win. The less intuitive the type of movement, and the more restricted the type of knockout allowed, the more controlled the sport is. Thus, when I say wrestling is restrictive in such a way that it makes it less violent than MMA and UFC, there shouldn’t be an argument. That’s pretty damn obvious.
[/quote]

I feel like you’re trying to say that the striking skills used in MMA don’t take a lot of time and practice to get right and are more intuitive than wrestling. Now I’ve never done a striking sport, but that smells like bullshit to me. Also, in an earlier post it seemed to me like you were implying that the violence in wrestling was negligible and called it a skill sport. It is not a skill sport, it is a combat sport, and it is violent, perhaps not in the same manner as mixed martial arts and other striking combat sports, but violent nonetheless. I personally know four guys who have had to retire from wrestling due to multiple concussions and all four of them still suffer from PCS symptoms to this day. But if the laundry list of wrestling injuries posted in this thread thus far hasn’t convinced you of anything, well, it’s no longer worth the effort.

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Lastly, fighting, regardless of sex, is about seeing how good you are. The only person who can show you that is an opponent. If you beat someone, you teach them something about what they need to do differently to take their game to the next level. It’s not a fucking ego trip.

Not fighting this woman is denying someone, who’s trained for YEARS and beaten MANY (regardless of those who forfeited, she still won throughout the years many times or she wouldn’t be on that level) the chance to improve their game at something they LOVE. That’s rude and sad on many levels. At least do this person the decency of helping them improve what they’ve devoted half their life to.[/quote]

Not sure I would’ve been happy about it but I probably would’ve wrestled her and done everything in my power to end that match as quickly as possible. Just saying.[/quote]

I’d already said my bit ref Oleena. Opinions are fine, but it holds no water if you haven’t stepped foot on a mat. Or trained in any martial art or combative sport. It’s a totally different mentality altogether.

205

Oleena and October Girl.
Tag team duo of fucking retarded women that spout bullshit about things they know nothing about.
Gotta love it.

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[quote]Oleena wrote:

Lastly, fighting, regardless of sex, is about seeing how good you are. The only person who can show you that is an opponent. If you beat someone, you teach them something about what they need to do differently to take their game to the next level. It’s not a fucking ego trip.

Not fighting this woman is denying someone, who’s trained for YEARS and beaten MANY (regardless of those who forfeited, she still won throughout the years many times or she wouldn’t be on that level) the chance to improve their game at something they LOVE. That’s rude and sad on many levels. At least do this person the decency of helping them improve what they’ve devoted half their life to.[/quote]

I can tell you this from my experience on the mat, which started kinda late in 4th grade-

You are right, it is not an ego trip, but it has nothing to do with helping someone improve.

It is about winning. Pure and simple.

You don’t practice all week/season/life for six minutes of helping someone out. You practice all week/season/life to go out and win.

That really is all that there is to it. By the time you get to the mat, if you are not prepared, may god have mercy on your soul, because the guy across from you will absolutely not.

207

[quote]Oleena wrote:
It was wrestling, not freaking UFC or boxing. I don’t think the “violence” argument has as much weight with such a controlled, non-striking skill sport.[/quote]

You’re not very smart.

208

MMA is more violent than Football and Rugby which are decently more violent than wrestling, which are all infinitely more violent than that controllled sparring judo crap. However if we are talking about number of injuries and severity of them, football and rugby probably top the list.

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[quote]Eli B wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Beast27195 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Beast27195 wrote:
She only had 3 forfeits. Next argument?

http://www.nwcaonline.com/nwcaonline/results/scorebook/WrestlerInfo.aspx?SchoolYear=0&ID=1347310[/quote]

Well, several forfeits, I didn’t realize until after I said that statement that the wrestler in question forfeited twice (I figured three dudes did the same thing).

Edit: Win:Lose ratio of 1.4:1[/quote]

3 forfeits out of 36 matches. I had that many when I was competing. Give credit where it is due, BC. She earned her way to states. [/quote]

I didn’t say she didn’t earn her way to state (if I did mia culpa), I was referring to her winning the state title (I believe I heard where she won the title?) that is what I disagreed with. Now, would I be bum hurt if I had some of my opponents forfeit and the opponent for the title forfeited and I won the title, no. But I wouldn’t expect people to say I earned it even if I was better than my opponent.

Earning her way to state, yes she did that. And, I am sure her friends and family are proud of her accomplishments, I’d even shake her hand and congratulate her if I met her in person.[/quote]

I also read an erroneous report that she won the title.[/quote]

I think it got escalated to that, from what I am reading this morning, she was just the first female to win a match at the state tournament.

210

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]Beast27195 wrote:

Well…I have a pretty strong sense of chivalry myself, however, on the wrestling mat or in the ring or cage, it has no place. If my opponent is female, I expect that she has trained sufficiently enough to be standing across from me, and means to win against me. She will not hold back and she doesn’t expect me to, either. She’s accepted and embraced the risks and challenging me, just as I have of her. [/quote]

At least a few people on this thread understand sportsmanship and respect.[/quote]

So because I don’t believe women should compete against men in such sports and that I personally wouldn’t wrestle a woman that means I do not have sportsmanship and respect?

211

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Lastly, fighting, regardless of sex, is about seeing how good you are. The only person who can show you that is an opponent. If you beat someone, you teach them something about what they need to do differently to take their game to the next level. It’s not a fucking ego trip.

Not fighting this woman is denying someone, who’s trained for YEARS and beaten MANY (regardless of those who forfeited, she still won throughout the years many times or she wouldn’t be on that level) the chance to improve their game at something they LOVE. That’s rude and sad on many levels. At least do this person the decency of helping them improve what they’ve devoted half their life to.[/quote]

Ya, you’re still on this “fuck his beliefs he’s a douche bag” and if he doesn’t do what you think he’s “rude and sad on many levels.” You go ahead and get your self together and realise that some people don’t view competition as the highest order and that there might be some higher principles that they follow and not everyone is a second class citizen because they do not believe the same way as you. And, sorry. When I stepped on the mat I never gave a care about someone improving, this sounds like some ol’ kiddy BS where people (parents and limp wristed coaches) put kids not properly trained into a match and call it “practice” or “getting better” because they haven’t taken the time to actually teach the kid.

P.S. Your videos do not compare to wrestling.

212

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
Oleena and October Girl.
Tag team duo of fucking retarded women that spout bullshit about things they know nothing about.
Gotta love it.[/quote]

Class of 09 for the WINZ!

213

It’s not often that BC and I are on the same side of an argument! LOL

All this talk about how she earned her spot fair and square is flawed. She is a female and got treated differently than her male counterparts ON SOME LEVEL to get where she did. Whether it be by a millisecond hesitation because she’s female, or an attempt to “beat her gently”, the additional psychological pressure to to not lose to a girl, or any one a hundred small concessions/advantages made due to her being a member of the fairer sex. To argue she didn’t is just being dishonest. This negates the concept of a level playing field and renders her “accomplishments” meaningless.

The idea that “if a woman could compete well enough to play in a men’s division then she should be afforded the opportunity to do so” is COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS. Let’s take a look at the Olympics - is it fair to say that the Olympics is the PINNACLE of athletic achievement in THE WORLD for any given sport? How many female athletes are competing in Olympic Men’s Hockey? NONE, because there is a WOMAN’S hockey team. How about Short Track relays? MEN have 5000m relay and WOMEN only have a 3000m relay. So how many women are on the Men’s 5000m relay team? (after all, that particular event isn’t AVAILABLE to women, so naturally they should be allowed to compete there, right?) Oh wait - there are NO WOMEN on the MEN’S 5000m relay! WHY NOT?! Because the Olympic committee doesn’t have it’s head shoved completely up it’s collective ASS like some people on this forum. If a woman “want’s” to compete in the Men’s 5000m relay SHE CAN’T! Why? BECAUSE SHE’S A WOMAN.

Now I’m SURE that all of the women who compete in the track and field events in the Olympics are faster than I am. I’m sure they are faster than the average team member on a Men’s HS track squad. Does that mean that she should compete on the Men’s team? NO, it means that she should win a GOLD MEDAL for WOMAN’S track!

The rest of the world understands the difference between men and women in sports. Why is it that in the United States we CONTINUOUSLY blur the lines between the sexes? Do people think that if we pass enough legislation or put enough quotas in professions traditionally held by men the the differences between the sexes will “magically” disappear? When will Feminists be satisfied? When they have COMPLETELY shattered gender roles in the name of “equality”? This country is BROKEN on so many levels and the fact that we are having a multi-page debate about this topic is a direct symptom.

214

[quote]Beast27195 wrote:
I have to echo a bit of On Edge’s sentiments. There isn’t an abundance of girls who wish to wrestle compared to the guys. If this sport is her passion, and the only avenue is to roll with the guys, then so be it. You aren’t wrestling a girl. You are wrestling an opponent that wants to put you on your back and get their hand raised.

The BS about finding your hand someplace inappropriate is exactly that: BS. If you can’t make minor adjustments or just let that notion go, then stay off the mat. It’s not like those TWO girls made it to states IN FUCKING IOWA based on guys forfeiting left and right. Quit hiding behind the supposed “moral” shield and just say what really bugs you: your fear of getting beat by a girl.

I am off of that soapbox. I love wrestling, so I think it’s phenomenal they made it.[/quote]

Mens and womens wrestling aren’t even relative. This is pretty silly, and it sort of confuses/impresses me that a girl made the state title? When I was 16 I was practicing with the local univesity which had the female Senior (20+ division) national champ at 63kg, I was 63kg, been wrestling two years and I pretty much beat the crap out of her every time and I wasn’t even a provincial champ in my own age group. These girls mustve been some crazy beasts.

215

When I said “You do her a favor by fighting her” I wasn’t implying that winning wasn’t going to be your main goal stepping out onto the mat.

Yes, refusing to fight someone who’s on the same level as you according to competition wins and losses is disrespectful. However, I got the impression from the information provided that he didn’t do it because he didn’t respect her but because he didn’t question his religion, which is different.

Everyone on here who says that they’d refuse simply for the fact that it’s a female is incredibly disrespectful. I think this may be my new way of telling whether or not a guy truly respects women as equal and able to think for themselves.

If a woman makes the decision to fight and is situated through experience at the same competitive level as you (and no religion is thinking for you), and you refuse to fight her, that’s a disrespect. If someone makes the decision to fight, it’s not your place to remake that decision for them. They’ve already signed the waiver and, through experience, have proven themselves to be on their level by beating other guys.

As for the videos I posted, the third one is on par with the one AC posted in terms of athleticism. It’s a different style, so they’re playing a little different, but the speed and technique are definitely there. I doubt any guy on here without significant wrestling experience would stand up against either of them.

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[quote]

When I wrestled in university, I trained in a room with female Canadian national champions, world medallists, and an olympic gold medallist. I know what a female combat athlete looks like, and I’m sure most of the other guys posting here have a pretty good idea too.
[/quote] That’s pretty cool, but I’m not convinced many of them realize how much of a beating women take getting to the levels mentioned. They acted like they were delicate flowers that would wilt upon the first throw or hold.

[quote]

I feel like you’re trying to say that the striking skills used in MMA don’t take a lot of time and practice to get right and are more intuitive than wrestling. Now I’ve never done a striking sport, but that smells like bullshit to me. Also, in an earlier post it seemed to me like you were implying that the violence in wrestling was negligible and called it a skill sport. It is not a skill sport, it is a combat sport, and it is violent, perhaps not in the same manner as mixed martial arts and other striking combat sports, but violent nonetheless. I personally know four guys who have had to retire from wrestling due to multiple concussions and all four of them still suffer from PCS symptoms to this day. But if the laundry list of wrestling injuries posted in this thread thus far hasn’t convinced you of anything, well, it’s no longer worth the effort.[/quote]
I wasn’t implying that MMA doesn’t involve a lot of time to perfect. In fact, I would say from my own experience that boxing (and no, for those that read this, I’m not saying MMA is boxing, I’m bringing up boxing because it’s included in the striking sports and has a high fatality rate) is much less intuitive than wrestling (for some people it may be the other way around. I’m just saying in my own experience, boxing was like learning ballet in terms of feeling different).

With all of these sports, there’s a certain body spacing where the offensive moves become more effective, there’s footwork to stay balanced and move with the most speed, there’s the actual technique of the move, and then you have to learn timing and how to pressure the other person to create openings. That’s just the basics for any combat style. So no, I’m not saying MMA is easier.

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Lastly, fighting, regardless of sex, is about seeing how good you are. The only person who can show you that is an opponent. If you beat someone, you teach them something about what they need to do differently to take their game to the next level. It’s not a fucking ego trip.

Not fighting this woman is denying someone, who’s trained for YEARS and beaten MANY (regardless of those who forfeited, she still won throughout the years many times or she wouldn’t be on that level) the chance to improve their game at something they LOVE. That’s rude and sad on many levels. At least do this person the decency of helping them improve what they’ve devoted half their life to.

Not sure I would’ve been happy about it but I probably would’ve wrestled her and done everything in my power to end that match as quickly as possible. Just saying.[/quote]

Why wouldn’t you have been happy about it? A competitor ranked on the same level as you through experience is a competitor ranked on the same level as you regardless of sex. How many other guys do you think this girl took out who originally were planning the same as you? Apparently, several.

217

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
It’s not often that BC and I are on the same side of an argument! LOL

All this talk about how she earned her spot fair and square is flawed. She is a female and got treated differently than her male counterparts ON SOME LEVEL to get where she did. Whether it be by a millisecond hesitation because she’s female, or an attempt to “beat her gently”, the additional psychological pressure to to not lose to a girl, or any one a hundred small concessions/advantages made due to her being a member of the fairer sex. To argue she didn’t is just being dishonest. This negates the concept of a level playing field and renders her “accomplishments” meaningless.

The idea that “if a woman could compete well enough to play in a men’s division then she should be afforded the opportunity to do so” is COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS. Let’s take a look at the Olympics - is it fair to say that the Olympics is the PINNACLE of athletic achievement in THE WORLD for any given sport? How many female athletes are competing in Olympic Men’s Hockey? NONE, because there is a WOMAN’S hockey team. How about Short Track relays? MEN have 5000m relay and WOMEN only have a 3000m relay. So how many women are on the Men’s 5000m relay team? (after all, that particular event isn’t AVAILABLE to women, so naturally they should be allowed to compete there, right?) Oh wait - there are NO WOMEN on the MEN’S 5000m relay! WHY NOT?! Because the Olympic committee doesn’t have it’s head shoved completely up it’s collective ASS like some people on this forum. If a woman “want’s” to compete in the Men’s 5000m relay SHE CAN’T! Why? BECAUSE SHE’S A WOMAN.

Now I’m SURE that all of the women who compete in the track and field events in the Olympics are faster than I am. I’m sure they are faster than the average team member on a Men’s HS track squad. Does that mean that she should compete on the Men’s team? NO, it means that she should win a GOLD MEDAL for WOMAN’S track!

The rest of the world understands the difference between men and women in sports. Why is it that in the United States we CONTINUOUSLY blur the lines between the sexes? Do people think that if we pass enough legislation or put enough quotas in professions traditionally held by men the the differences between the sexes will “magically” disappear? When will Feminists be satisfied? When they have COMPLETELY shattered gender roles in the name of “equality”? This country is BROKEN on so many levels and the fact that we are having a multi-page debate about this topic is a direct symptom.
[/quote]

If you looked back, you would see that I agreed with you regarding top-of-the-competitive-level events, but this was high school wrestling. You CANNOT compare high school wrestling to olympic level gymnastics. lol.

218

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
It’s not often that BC and I are on the same side of an argument! LOL

All this talk about how she earned her spot fair and square is flawed. She is a female and got treated differently than her male counterparts ON SOME LEVEL to get where she did. Whether it be by a millisecond hesitation because she’s female, or an attempt to “beat her gently”, the additional psychological pressure to to not lose to a girl, or any one a hundred small concessions/advantages made due to her being a member of the fairer sex. To argue she didn’t is just being dishonest. This negates the concept of a level playing field and renders her “accomplishments” meaningless.[/quote]

A bit of a drift and more general commentary, but somewhat relevant…from your post here, it sounds like you have a pretty solid grasp of what ‘male privilege’ is and showing great insight. But I think your conclusion as to who’s gaining the advantage from this construct is off…

I think earlier in the thread you spoke against protecting people’s self-esteems. Isn’t protecting women from real competition doing just that? Women/girls do not need protection. What they need is to be challenged and pushed harder. However with rampant sexism still around, the scenario you describe will still occur, but it will only persist as we keep protecting women/girls.

I do believe boys in high school right now are better equipped to deal with female opponents than when I was in high school and the problem you describe here is more a problem of the men in our generation than the next. Although it’s still there.

220

debraD: as per our earlier discussions, why am I looking at your face in your avatar?

Has hell frozen over?

221

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
When I said “You do her a favor by fighting her” I wasn’t implying that winning wasn’t going to be your main goal stepping out onto the mat.

Yes, refusing to fight someone who’s on the same level as you according to competition wins and losses is disrespectful. However, I got the impression from the information provided that he didn’t do it because he didn’t respect her but because he didn’t question his religion, which is different.

Everyone on here who says that they’d refuse simply for the fact that it’s a female is incredibly disrespectful. I think this may be my new way of telling whether or not a guy truly respects women as equal and able to think for themselves.

If a woman makes the decision to fight and is situated through experience at the same competitive level as you (and no religion is thinking for you), and you refuse to fight her, that’s a disrespect. If someone makes the decision to fight, it’s not your place to remake that decision for them. They’ve already signed the waiver and, through experience, have proven themselves to be on their level by beating other guys.

As for the videos I posted, the third one is on par with the one AC posted in terms of athleticism. It’s a different style, so they’re playing a little different, but the speed and technique are definitely there. I doubt any guy on here without significant wrestling experience would stand up against either of them.[/quote]

Your posts are laughable. More feminism garbage.

You’re not at the same level, especially not in combat sports. You want to fight, fight other women. You have no business fighting or attempting to fight men.

You think it’s disrespectful? Good. Get the fuck out of my ring.
[/quote]

Me? This entire thread isn’t about me. It’s about a girl who was on the same level as the guy. Try to stay on topic.